Changes to the tactical layer

Matanui3
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:31 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Matanui3 »

Amineri wrote:
JulianSkies wrote:
johnnylump wrote:[*]This is referred to as the “Graze Band.” The measure of “close” is configurable in-game, and defaults to +/- 10%.
Okay hold your horses, I need to ask about this. Something confused me here.
The Graze Band is +/-10% default, that's fine. But is that put on top of the Hit zone (meaning a 40% hit chance would have rolls 1-10 be a graze, 11-40 be a hit and 41-50 be a graze) or does it overlaps somewhere?
The way you mentioned in the examples it seemed like, somewhere, 10% of the hit chance was getting consumed somewhere.
Think of it like this -- with a base 40% hit chance, a roll of 1-30 is a regular hit, a roll of 31-50 is a graze.

Under the hood I actually compute all of the conditional probabilities (assuming multiple independent rolls) and deliver the correct a priori probabilities for each of the 4 possible outcomes. This helps maintain compatibility with the rest of the game and other mods.
So you are saying that basically, yes, 10% of your hit chance is lost to graze, but with the benefit of having an additional 10% chance to not miss entirely.
Matanui3
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:31 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Matanui3 »

Speaking of "promoting" and "demoting" damage tiers, is a graze still half damage, and a crit still +1 damage per tier for most weapons?
User avatar
johnnylump
Site Admin
Posts: 1262
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:12 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by johnnylump »

Matanui3 wrote:Speaking of "promoting" and "demoting" damage tiers, is a graze still half damage, and a crit still +1 damage per tier for most weapons?
Graze is still half.
Crit I generally set at 50% bonus (rounding down).
Stars Cross
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:17 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Stars Cross »

So improved AI and separate rolls for Hit, Crit and Dodge confirmed which is good! Last question, does the Aim Assist mechanic still exist on the softer settings?
ShockmasterFred
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by ShockmasterFred »

What about Squadsight? Does it still have the aim penalty for snipers? I know Firaxis included this to make gunslinger the better option, but since Sharpshooters are no longer pistoleros (that's an assumption, based off of the secondary weapons) did you eliminate, or at least decrease the harsh SS penalty? If not, will it be ini editable?

Thank you again for taking the time to read, answer and for all the hard work the team (playtesters too! Thanks guys!) has put in.
Tyranniac
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Tyranniac »

Really liking the sound of the hit chance changes, seems like it will make things less absolute.

Not sure how to feel about the crazy damage range on the shotgun though... seems like that might make it too unreliable to use. Between that and the range nerfs I don't know what incentive there would be to bring one?

The weapon mod changes sound good, but I hope Steady Weapon is more useful in LW2. As it was in the Perk Pack it didn't really seem useful at all.
User avatar
johnnylump
Site Admin
Posts: 1262
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:12 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by johnnylump »

Stars Cross wrote:So improved AI and separate rolls for Hit, Crit and Dodge confirmed which is good! Last question, does the Aim Assist mechanic still exist on the softer settings?
Only in rookie for the release version. I'm removing that in 1.1 and instead just giving soldiers +15 aim, so aim assist won't be in play at all.
Matanui3
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:31 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Matanui3 »

Tyranniac wrote: The weapon mod changes sound good, but I hope Steady Weapon is more useful in LW2. As it was in the Perk Pack it didn't really seem useful at all.
It boosts both aim AND crit, and the amount is determined by tier. Your basic Stock gives +10 of each, with an additional +5 for the second tier. I assume the third is another +5.

They showed a few in the Firaxis stream earlier today.
User avatar
rifleman
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:37 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by rifleman »

According to the video, low cover provide 30% defense, and high cover provide 45% now. :shock:

Does high ground defense change as well? I saw the playthrough video, XCOM shooted a Drone. That information show Drone , which fly on roof, dont have any high ground defense.
rakoon79
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:03 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by rakoon79 »

Sorry, I still can't follow the to-hit mechanism yet.

There's this excel visualization somebody posted on subreddit. Could you confirm the calculations are correct? https://redd.it/5ou1y0

ex1) displayed to-hit is 80 , crit is 0.

shouldn't it be just 70% to hit, 20% to graze, 10% to miss since we have 0 crit?

ex2) displayed to-hit is 20 , crit is 40.

1) (Before applying crit), we have 10% normal-damage, 20% graze, 70% miss
2) (after applying crit),
- 40% of 10%-normal gets promoted to crit -> crit 4%
- 40% of 20%-graze gets promoted to normal -> normal 6 + 8 = 14%
- graze is 20-8 = 12%
- miss doesnt get promoted
so shouldn't it be 4% crit, 14% normal, 12% graze, 70% miss?

Sorry to bring a reddit post here instead, but I thought I understood the mechanics, but the excel post is confusing me again. So I'd rather hear from someone who made the system
JulianSkies
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by JulianSkies »

rakoon79 wrote:Sorry, I still can't follow the to-hit mechanism yet.

There's this excel visualization somebody posted on subreddit. Could you confirm the calculations are correct? https://redd.it/5ou1y0

ex1) displayed to-hit is 80 , crit is 0.

shouldn't it be just 70% to hit, 20% to graze, 10% to miss since we have 0 crit?

ex2) displayed to-hit is 20 , crit is 40.

1) (Before applying crit), we have 10% normal-damage, 20% graze, 70% miss
2) (after applying crit),
- 40% of 10%-normal gets promoted to crit -> crit 4%
- 40% of 20%-graze gets promoted to normal -> normal 6 + 8 = 14%
- graze is 20-8 = 12%
- miss doesnt get promoted
so shouldn't it be 4% crit, 14% normal, 12% graze, 70% miss?

Sorry to bring a reddit post here instead, but I thought I understood the mechanics, but the excel post is confusing me again. So I'd rather hear from someone who made the system
No, not quite like that. First you take the roll before applying crit, let's say you rolled into normal damage.
After that you roll both crit and dodge. If you roll a crit promote the damage one step, if you roll a dodge demote it one step.
So if you roll both a crit and a dodge they cancel.
If you roll a crit and not a dodge the damage becomes a Critical Hit
If you don't roll a crit and roll a dodge the damage becomes a Graze
rakoon79
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:03 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by rakoon79 »

JulianSkies wrote: No, not quite like that. First you take the roll before applying crit, let's say you rolled into normal damage.
After that you roll both crit and dodge. If you roll a crit promote the damage one step, if you roll a dodge demote it one step.
So if you roll both a crit and a dodge they cancel.
If you roll a crit and not a dodge the damage becomes a Critical Hit
If you don't roll a crit and roll a dodge the damage becomes a Graze
No, I understand how things are. (or at least I think I do). But calculating and putting into numbers is where I'm lost at the moment
JulianSkies
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by JulianSkies »

rakoon79 wrote:
JulianSkies wrote: No, not quite like that. First you take the roll before applying crit, let's say you rolled into normal damage.
After that you roll both crit and dodge. If you roll a crit promote the damage one step, if you roll a dodge demote it one step.
So if you roll both a crit and a dodge they cancel.
If you roll a crit and not a dodge the damage becomes a Critical Hit
If you don't roll a crit and roll a dodge the damage becomes a Graze
No, I understand how things are. (or at least I think I do). But calculating and putting into numbers is where I'm lost at the moment
OH, I completely misunderstood where you were coming from. My apologies
User avatar
HubrisBliss
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:21 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by HubrisBliss »

rakoon79 wrote:Sorry, I still can't follow the to-hit mechanism yet.

There's this excel visualization somebody posted on subreddit. Could you confirm the calculations are correct? https://redd.it/5ou1y0

ex1) displayed to-hit is 80 , crit is 0.

shouldn't it be just 70% to hit, 20% to graze, 10% to miss since we have 0 crit?
I have the same problem as you with this spreadsheet. The first section "Displayed Crit: 0" should have all % numbers as multiples of 10. I didn't bother with the rest of the spreadsheet because I assume it is flawed.

...and I just saw Amineri posting the same thing in the reddit thread, so...
Matanui3
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:31 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Matanui3 »

rifleman wrote:According to the video, low cover provide 30% defense, and high cover provide 45% now. :shock:

Does high ground defense change as well? I saw the playthrough video, XCOM shooted a Drone. That information show Drone , which fly on roof, dont have any high ground defense.
XCOM2 (and if I remember correctly, EU/EW) doesn't give extra defense for height, just extra Aim. Flying enemies in EU/EW had extra defense when airborne, but XCOM2 doesn't have an actual flight mechanic. Enemies that don't use cover generally just have their own defense stats.
User avatar
HubrisBliss
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:21 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by HubrisBliss »

It appears the spreadsheet in question has been updated, and the numbers looks correct to me. Devs, care to confirm?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/ ... ong_war_2/

I think dodge makes things a bit more complicated than this spreadsheet leads onto. I do notice, however, that graze, with 0 dodge, can be eliminated with 100 crit. But even a 100% aim, 90 crit shot would still have a 1% chance to graze.

Now I'm wondering about eliminating graze with aim. I believe a 110% aim, 0 crit shot also eliminates graze. So, things happen with aim and graze over 90% aim because it starts eliminating 50% of the remaining graze, after the crit reduction is applied.

So I calculate that graze = (100 - Crit) / 5
Then, that number can be directly eliminated with extra aim, somewhere over 90%, but I still can't figure out exactly...
I think it is: 100 - (graze/2)

so the "graze band" shrinks with crit, then the extra aim pushes the band out of the hit threshold.

So tell me, do these shots yield a graze of 0, assuming dodge is 0?

101% aim, 90 crit
103% aim, 70 crit
105% aim, 50 crit
107% aim, 30 crit
109% aim, 10 crit

If so, then I think I can visualize what's happening here. I really like how it works. The extra dodge roll seems to smooth out the edges into a bell shaped curve, making it less of a linear relationship. It's not as simple as (Crit - Dodge) = new Crit. I keep thinking about craps odds, because of the two dice rolls.

I gotta say, I'm excited!
Badman_bacon777
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:59 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Badman_bacon777 »

Does a critical hit promote a Miss to a graze?
rakoon79
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:03 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by rakoon79 »

Badman_bacon777 wrote:Does a critical hit promote a Miss to a graze?
Somebody confirmed that Miss does NOT get promoted.
We can only get demoted to Miss
fowlJ
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:45 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by fowlJ »

HubrisBliss wrote: So tell me, do these shots yield a graze of 0, assuming dodge is 0?

101% aim, 90 crit
103% aim, 70 crit
105% aim, 50 crit
107% aim, 30 crit
109% aim, 10 crit
Assuming my calculations (and understanding of the system) are correct, the graze chances of those shots are 0.9%, 2.1%, 2.5%, 2.1%, and 0.9%, respectively. (Not sure how the rounding works, though.)

I made up a quick google doc for it here, if you have a google account you should be able to make a copy of it to play with the numbers yourself.

EDIT: To explain the labels I used, "Dodge | Miss" = A Graze that is demoted to a miss, "Dodge | Graze" = A Hit which is demoted to a graze, "Crit | Hit" = A Graze which is promoted to a hit, "Crit | Crit" = A Hit which is promoted to a critical hit, "Final Band" = The chance of a grazed shot that is not the result of enemy dodge, accounting for both "Dodge | Miss" and "Crit | Hit", and "Final Hit", the chance of a normal hit accounting for all other modifiers.
Tyranniac
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Tyranniac »

Matanui3 wrote:
rifleman wrote:According to the video, low cover provide 30% defense, and high cover provide 45% now. :shock:

Does high ground defense change as well? I saw the playthrough video, XCOM shooted a Drone. That information show Drone , which fly on roof, dont have any high ground defense.
XCOM2 (and if I remember correctly, EU/EW) doesn't give extra defense for height, just extra Aim. Flying enemies in EU/EW had extra defense when airborne, but XCOM2 doesn't have an actual flight mechanic. Enemies that don't use cover generally just have their own defense stats.
Hopefully manually activating the height defense bonus in the inis is as easy as it was in vanilla XCOM 2. One of the first things I did when starting to play.
User avatar
HubrisBliss
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:21 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by HubrisBliss »

fowlJ wrote: I made up a quick google doc for it here, if you have a google account you should be able to make a copy of it to play with the numbers yourself.
Ok, so my intuition is close, but I see your spreadsheet is calculating the graze band different than I pictured. That's where the discrepancy is. Your B and C column calculates the band with a max and min command, so the edge is getting "cut off" different than how I pictured it.

Basically, I was adjusting with crit, then removing with aim. Your spreadsheet corrects with aim, then adjusts with crit. We'll have to wait to see the specifics, but I think your way is probably right. It explains the promote/demote shot concept much clearer.
Amineri

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Amineri »

rakoon79 wrote:
Badman_bacon777 wrote:Does a critical hit promote a Miss to a graze?
Somebody confirmed that Miss does NOT get promoted.
We can only get demoted to Miss
This is correct. A successful crit roll cannot promote a miss to a graze.

On the other side, whether a successful dodge roll can demote a graze to a miss is controlled by a config variable, since we wanted to playtest both options. In the end we decide to allow it.

The "order of checking" is that crit is rolled first, then dodge. So if the first hit roll generates a dodge, and both crit roll and dodge roll are successful, the counter each other because crit promotes to hit, then dodge promotes back down to graze. If the order were reversed, see, it would be different, since dodge would demote graze to miss, which crit could not promote. Hence rolling crit first.
Amineri

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Amineri »

This bit is more for us fiddly math nerds...

Because the final results have to be integers (it's how XCOM 2 code expects and displays the final results), there are some round-off adjustments. Under the hood, I don't actually make a series of independent rolls, but compute the a priori probabilities of the 4 possible outcomes (but rounded to int), which is what gets passed along to the base-game code that actually rolls it.

This round-off had to be done carefully to make sure that the sum of the 4 probabilities still added up to 100. This shows up fairly clearly in cases where two values would have 0.5 fractional parts. Any sort of consistent numeric rounding or truncation could end up resulting in the sum not ending up at 100.

I'll give some more details about what happens inside the adjustment for crit chance -- the dodge is similar.

First, retrieve the crit chance from the ResultTable :

Code: Select all

CriticalChance = ToHitCalc.m_ShotBreakdown.ResultTable[eHit_Crit];
Second, compute the chance of promoting a hit from previous (with graze band) to a crit :

Code: Select all

CritPromoteChance_HitToCrit = Round(float(HitChance) * float(CriticalChance) / 100.0);
Note that rounding to integer occurs at this point, so we can accumulate up to 0.5% of round-off error.

Third, compute the chance of promoting a graze from previous (with graze band) to a hit :

Code: Select all

CritPromoteChance_GrazeToHit = Round(float(GrazeChance) * float(CriticalChance) / 100.0);
Again, there is the rounding and chance of accumulating some fractional error.

Fourth, use these values to adjust the crit, hit and graze chances :

Code: Select all

CritChance = CritPromoteChance_HitToCrit;
HitChance = HitChance + CritPromoteChance_GrazeToHit - CritPromoteChance_HitToCrit;
GrazeChance = GrazeChance - CritPromoteChance_GrazeToHit;
Note that I don't maintain a separate miss chance during the step-by-step a priori probability calculations. Instead, at the very end (after dodge is factored in), the miss chance is whatever is left over :

Code: Select all

MissChance = 100 - (CritChance + HitChance + GrazeChance);
Thus any cumulative round-off errors end up in the miss chance.
Hyzersurface
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:49 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Hyzersurface »

Interesting changes to the hit chances! Can imagine I may benefit from it a lot in the early game where the shot percentage is usually low. But does it also mean that a 100% percent shot against a certain enemy who has dodge can also be a graze and even become a miss? I don't think I'm going to like it though...
Jeckhyl
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Jeckhyl »

I suppose there is a duration available, before we decide to start an infiltration. Will we see this window ? Will we say "Holy Sectoid ! The window to start an infiltration in India is closing tomorrow, I HAVE to launch Operation Lumpkin Lover in Canada even if I'd rather have waited five more day for a complete infiltration on this one, then my team will be able to jump in India and I'll fulfill the two objectives !" ?

(EDIT english is definitively not my native langage, I hope you will understand the post)
Post Reply