Changes to the tactical layer

User avatar
rifleman
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:37 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by rifleman »

According to yesterday livestream, the dodge stat is very powerful that making almost every low hit rate shoot into a graze. Except Stun Lancer, the other enemy show in the video, seems dont have much dodge stats. However, they do get more graze than normal damage. Even a Assault RNG to get flanking bonus, it still result in Graze! 2 damage.

Maybe, graze system is the reason why some tester tell me that Ranger could shoot 3 time in 1 turn is the keypoint for him to surrive in LW2. IMO, in early game, flanking is the only way to reduce graze rate. Although XCOM soldiers could learn crit perks to improve in mid-game, some enemy with good dodge stats come on stage at the same time. The new enemy, such as Snake & Archon would be a graze nightmare for XCOM.

When LW2 online, I guess we will get more sotry of GrazeCOM2. Can`t wait.
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by mattprice516 »

Jeckhyl wrote:I suppose there is a duration available, before we decide to start an infiltration. Will we see this window ? Will we say "Holy Sectoid ! The window to start an infiltration in India is closing tomorrow, I HAVE to launch Operation Lumpkin Lover in Canada even if I'd rather have waited five more day for a complete infiltration on this one, then my team will be able to jump in India and I'll fulfill the two objectives !" ?
Yes, that happens. Quite frequently to me, in fact - never enough squads to go around.


EDIT: Well, there's a window before each mission expires - you can start infiltrating any time during that window though, you'll just not get as far in your infiltration if you start later.
Jeckhyl
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Jeckhyl »

Ah OK I understand better now. Thank you.
Amineri

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Amineri »

Hyzersurface wrote:Interesting changes to the hit chances! Can imagine I may benefit from it a lot in the early game where the shot percentage is usually low. But does it also mean that a 100% percent shot against a certain enemy who has dodge can also be a graze and even become a miss? I don't think I'm going to like it though...
If dodge can demote from graze to miss, then that reduced chance to hit shows up in the shotwings preview.

For example, with a base 100% to hit, against a 50 dodge enemy, before dodge that would be 90% hit, 10% graze. After the dodge roll, the 10% graze would become 5% graze, 5% miss. In this case, we will display : "Dodge -5%" in the shotwings to hit. You can also counter high dodge with high crit chance, so dodge won't trump everything (although it is a powerful stat).
Tyranniac
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Tyranniac »

Amineri wrote: For example, with a base 100% to hit, against a 50 dodge enemy, before dodge that would be 90% hit, 10% graze.
Does having over 100% hit negate the 10% graze, or is that always going to be present?
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by mattprice516 »

Tyranniac wrote:
Amineri wrote: For example, with a base 100% to hit, against a 50 dodge enemy, before dodge that would be 90% hit, 10% graze.
Does having over 100% hit negate the 10% graze?
Yes.
Arizael
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:50 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Arizael »

Hi. I always hated the pod activation mechanic, so I can hardly imagine a game without the All pods active mod. Was this mod amongst the ones you tested for compatibility ? Would you expect that this mod would be actually playable with all the changes to tactical layer? I can hardly imagine winning retaliation missions where 15 aliens proceeds to pin you down, 15 go to flank you and the remaining 10 starts to systematically eliminate all civilians, all of this happening on turn 1.
Torquemada
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Torquemada »

Hey all, loved the livestream yesterday and I got a couple of questions:

* Is melee using the same attack formula as guns? Can you get melee grazes too?

* How are knives different from swords, gameplay wise? Why not just give swords to the gunner?

* Given that variance in damage will be greater and sure-kills rarer, it seems that Red Fog should be more recommended now otherwise enemies left with few HPs have a big chance of seriously injuring your soldiers, making most flanking extremely risky. What is the recommended setup regarding Red Fog, coming from beta testers?
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by mattprice516 »

Arizael wrote:Hi. I always hated the pod activation mechanic, so I can hardly imagine a game without the All pods active mod. Was this mod amongst the ones you tested for compatibility ? Would you expect that this mod would be actually playable with all the changes to tactical layer? I can hardly imagine winning retaliation missions where 15 aliens proceeds to pin you down, 15 go to flank you and the remaining 10 starts to systematically eliminate all civilians, all of this happening on turn 1.
LW2 will likely be really really hard with that mod, as it's been balanced without it in mind.

That said, one of the major overhauls in LW2 is to the pod AI. "Activation" still exists, but pods who are not activated can be "alerted" (from seeing dead bodies, hearing screaming civvies, hearing gunfire or explosions) or have a "job" (flanking XCOM, guarding objective, etc).

Alerted pods will take some actions on activation if they activate on their own turn, and the game has also been balanced around this. If you like the all pods active mod you might find the "reflex" actions give a similar feel.
That_Derpy_muton
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:44 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by That_Derpy_muton »

johnnylump wrote:
That_Derpy_muton wrote:Yo i see an arc thrower. :D does this mean interrogations? :twisted:
Nope. Its role is to help in combat.
Oh well how does it help?
MaybeRobot
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:57 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by MaybeRobot »

Can someone explain to me how the hair triggers work?

Maybe I don't fully understand what "to-hit" chances are in the first place, and how they differ from the shot percentage. That might be important context that I'm missing also.
roberdjp
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by roberdjp »

Q&A up on Firaxis's site: https://xcom.com/news/xcom-2-pavonis-in ... long-war-2

So you can train anyone with [some of?] the pistol skills using time in the AWC, apparently.
MaybeRobot
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:57 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by MaybeRobot »

[*]Hair Triggers now provide to-hit bonuses on reaction fire. Scopes now only work on non-reaction fire.[/list]

Can you explain how the hair triggers work in more detail? I'm not sure I understand what the "to-hit"chances are if they differ from standard shot percentage.

Also, do the hair triggers increased "to-hit" chances only apply to reaction fire, or is it any standard shot as well?

Thanks!
LeaderEnemyBoss
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Hey Pavonis!

So Johnny mentioned, that large alien pods dont have only one type of follower anymore. Did you do this "manually" via XComMissions.ini or did you implement a new/fixed SelectSpawnGroup mechanism?
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by mattprice516 »

MaybeRobot wrote:[*]Hair Triggers now provide to-hit bonuses on reaction fire. Scopes now only work on non-reaction fire.[/list]

Can you explain how the hair triggers work in more detail? I'm not sure I understand what the "to-hit"chances are if they differ from standard shot percentage.

Also, do the hair triggers increased "to-hit" chances only apply to reaction fire, or is it any standard shot as well?

Thanks!

"to-hit bonus" = Aim bonus. For Hair Triggers it only applies to reaction fire, and for Scopes it only applies to non-reaction fire. Hair Triggers = for Overwatch and Suppression troops, Scopes = for other troops. Or you can put both on the same gun for double the fun.
Amineri

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Amineri »

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:Hey Pavonis!

So Johnny mentioned, that large alien pods dont have only one type of follower anymore. Did you do this "manually" via XComMissions.ini or did you implement a new/fixed SelectSpawnGroup mechanism?
We actually went with option 3. We added a new hook into our XComGame replacement that allows for adjusting of each pod as it is created. This allows better integration with other mods' additional units, plus other mods can also use this hook and make further tweaks.
LeaderEnemyBoss
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Amineri wrote:
LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:Hey Pavonis!

So Johnny mentioned, that large alien pods dont have only one type of follower anymore. Did you do this "manually" via XComMissions.ini or did you implement a new/fixed SelectSpawnGroup mechanism?
We actually went with option 3. We added a new hook into our XComGame replacement that allows for adjusting of each pod as it is created. This allows better integration with other mods' additional units, plus other mods can also use this hook and make further tweaks.
Ha! I was just about to post that i found the relevant code in the X2DownloadableContentInfo_LW_Overhaul on my own. So this is a similar approach to what I did in my Venator/Riftkeeper mods to prevent excessive spawns of these boss-enemies (naturally what you did is more advanced than my very basic solution). My main difficulty was to find the right hook so the replaced enemies would be displayed correctly in the shadow chamber, but since shadow chamber enemy information seems to be gone, you didnt have to deal with this hassle ;). This may lead to some headaches on my part when updating my stuff to make it compatible with LW2.

I also noticed that tha values you used for spawnweights are very low compared to the "vanilla" values. Is there a specific reason for this?
Amineri

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by Amineri »

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote: Ha! I was just about to post that i found the relevant code in the X2DownloadableContentInfo_LW_Overhaul on my own. So this is a similar approach to what I did in my Venator/Riftkeeper mods to prevent excessive spawns of these boss-enemies (naturally what you did is more advanced than my very basic solution). My main difficulty was to find the right hook so the replaced enemies would be displayed correctly in the shadow chamber, but since shadow chamber enemy information seems to be gone, you didnt have to deal with this hassle ;). This may lead to some headaches on my part when updating my stuff to make it compatible with LW2.

I also noticed that tha values you used for spawnweights are very low compared to the "vanilla" values. Is there a specific reason for this?
With the way infiltration effects work, as the infiltration progresses, the mission Alert changes, which means we're changing MissionSchedules as time progresses. This means that showing shadow chamber information isn't really of much use. There are a couple of cases where it's more static, and in those cases the shadow chamber preview still works.

JL likely recalibrated the spawnweight values. All of our units now get different spawnweights at different ForceLevels, instead of just a flat one. This allows relative likelihoods to shift a bit more smoothly.
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by mattprice516 »

Note that since spawnweights aren't absolute probabilities, the absolute value isn't all that important, just the value of "This alien's spawnweight"/"Sum of all valid alien's spawnweights"


That sort of thing (spawnweight recalibration) is definitely why Deacon and I have been encouraging people to give modders time to update their more involved mods (like adding enemies), because compatibility with LW2 is possible and it even gives you some new things to play around with - but there will be stuff like this that'll make mods unbalanced in the meantime before they're adjusted to work with LW2's system. :)
LeaderEnemyBoss
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Amineri wrote:
LeaderEnemyBoss wrote: Ha! I was just about to post that i found the relevant code in the X2DownloadableContentInfo_LW_Overhaul on my own. So this is a similar approach to what I did in my Venator/Riftkeeper mods to prevent excessive spawns of these boss-enemies (naturally what you did is more advanced than my very basic solution). My main difficulty was to find the right hook so the replaced enemies would be displayed correctly in the shadow chamber, but since shadow chamber enemy information seems to be gone, you didnt have to deal with this hassle ;). This may lead to some headaches on my part when updating my stuff to make it compatible with LW2.

I also noticed that tha values you used for spawnweights are very low compared to the "vanilla" values. Is there a specific reason for this?
With the way infiltration effects work, as the infiltration progresses, the mission Alert changes, which means we're changing MissionSchedules as time progresses. This means that showing shadow chamber information isn't really of much use. There are a couple of cases where it's more static, and in those cases the shadow chamber preview still works.

JL likely recalibrated the spawnweight values. All of our units now get different spawnweights at different ForceLevels, instead of just a flat one. This allows relative likelihoods to shift a bit more smoothly.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Further sniveling around in your files revealed that you added the hook right into the CacheSelectedMissionData function. This is totally fine for a large overhaul like LW2, but i wont do that for small enemy mod due to compatibility concerns. I guess the best way to update my mod is to check, if LW2 is active, if yes: disregard my old method and use the new hook you provided, if no: continue using my old method. What would be great however is, if firaxis was to implement your hook into the basegame!

Regarding the spawnweights: Since the values of your spawnweights are so low I probably have to implement conditional weights. Something like: LW2 is active: spawnweights value is 3, LW2 is not active: spawnweight value is 30. This shouldnt be too hard, but it's something enemy-mod creators need to consider.
mattprice516 wrote:Note that since spawnweights aren't absolute probabilities, the absolute value isn't all that important, just the value of "This alien's spawnweight"/"Sum of all valid alien's spawnweights"


That sort of thing (spawnweight recalibration) is definitely why Deacon and I have been encouraging people to give modders time to update their more involved mods (like adding enemies), because compatibility with LW2 is possible and it even gives you some new things to play around with - but there will be stuff like this that'll make mods unbalanced in the meantime before they're adjusted to work with LW2's system. :)
Yes i understand that, but i cant just lower the spawnweights of my enemy mod to say 3 and call it a day, since it wouldnt show up in vanilla campaigns anymore ;).
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by mattprice516 »

Yeah, good point. If you do figure out a way to check for LW2 and then do Y, otherwise do X, I'm sure other modders would be fascinated to hear about it haha. :)


I suspect some mods may just have to make a LW2 branch, but I understand that's kind of a PITA.
eisenefaust
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:46 am

Re: Changes to the tactical layer

Post by eisenefaust »

Amineri wrote: http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 928#p24928
This bit is more for us fiddly math nerds...
...
I made a spreadsheet to try to better understand this and to help JoINrbs with his hit calculator he posted that he was having issues with.

I looked at to the following files to make my spread sheet forumlae (they are duplicates it seems):

Code: Select all

\src\LW_Overhaul\Classes\X2AbilityToHit_LWOverride.uc
\src\LW_Overhaul\Classes\XComGameState_LWListenerManager.uc

This may already be fixed or I may have made an error in my interpretation of the code but I found some odd behavior with negative dodge.

If you have 100 hit and -10 dodge with ALLOW_NEGATIVE_DODGE = true and DODGE_CONVERTS_GRAZE_TO_MISS = true
you will have a miss that is -1
I also tested hit of 90, crit 50, and dodge -20 which makes miss = -2

Here is my spread sheet so you can see what I did for the formulas but I don't know that it's really needed.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
The examples are at the bottom of the sheet.

In order to make it as simply as possible I just basically wrote forumlas for each variable to use in the hit calculation. I used ROUND assuming it has similar functionality to the fmath function xcom2 is using and used Median(min, value, max) to replace clamp(value, min, max) so it may have some errors, but figured I would inform you guys in case it actually was an issue in game.

What may make sense here is after calculations are done if DodgeDemoteChance_CritToHit is negative the actually promote that hit to crit and if DodgeDemoteChance_HitToGraze is negative then you should promote graze to hit. clamping both to 100 or something.

Or maybe to simply check if dodge is negative and then increase crit by that amount (crit - dodge). this gets rid of the nature of the double roll but maybe that would work since it is negative.
Post Reply