alternative primary for Sharshooter

ORIONOX

alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ORIONOX »

I think that the Sharpshooter needs an alternative weapon to the sniper rifle for their primary weapon. Currently if you get a crappy roll of the dice and start the game with a Sharpshooter with crappy aim, they have a line of perks (holotarget perks) that allows them to be semi-useful, but they don't have any primary weapons like the SMG that they can change to that compliments their new role as a purely support unit.

On a tangential note, I think that all of the primary weapons in the game should be expanded on and given a couple extra versions, like a super heavy mini-gun that impedes movement for the gunners but does great damage and has huge ammo counts while also slows down infiltration times. A Heavy sniper with a single shot, that pierces armor..... ETC. Similarly to what you guys did in Lw1
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Arcalane
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by Arcalane »

Holotargeter works through squadsight as far as I'm aware, so you don't need to close in to use it effectively.
ORIONOX

Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ORIONOX »

Arcalane wrote:Holotargeter works through squadsight as far as I'm aware, so you don't need to close in to use it effectively.
I know, but my sharpshooter can't use the sniper effectively. So I'd at least like some alternative maybe have some extra mobility or something.
Goumindong
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by Goumindong »

Equip a pistol. Its 1-4 damage (2.5 average) which puts it about the same quality as an SMG (2-4, 3 avg). It has infinite ammo and you're probably not going to use the side slots anyway.
ORIONOX

Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ORIONOX »

Goumindong wrote:Equip a pistol. Its 1-4 damage (2.5 average) which puts it about the same quality as an SMG (2-4, 3 avg). It has infinite ammo and you're probably not going to use the side slots anyway.
I know, but equipping the pistol results in a movement penalty that I don't really want and I don't have another primary weapon to offset that penalty. Really all I want is to be able to equip the SMG as a sharphooter so that I can have the extra mobility. I think it's kind of ridiculous how they cant equip the SMG
sarge945
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by sarge945 »

I would actually really like a "battle rifle", which has more damage and accuracy than a standard assault rifle, but a smaller clip and is only usable by Sharpshooters. Would give them a nice mobility weapon, instead of having to camp with their sniper rifle.
Goumindong
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by Goumindong »

ORIONOX wrote:
Goumindong wrote:Equip a pistol. Its 1-4 damage (2.5 average) which puts it about the same quality as an SMG (2-4, 3 avg). It has infinite ammo and you're probably not going to use the side slots anyway.
I know, but equipping the pistol results in a movement penalty that I don't really want and I don't have another primary weapon to offset that penalty. Really all I want is to be able to equip the SMG as a sharphooter so that I can have the extra mobility. I think it's kind of ridiculous how they cant equip the SMG
What do you need the mobility for? Are you taking your sniper on hard evac timer missions? If you are, then don't do that. Bring them on call evac missions so you can sit them in one spot.

Edit: What i mean is that the Sniper, like all of the classes, has a role to play. If the sharpshooter was hyper mobile then it wouldn't be a sharpshooter anymore it would be an assault or a ranger. If you want a pure scouter the ninja does that just fine
ConradKurze
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ConradKurze »

You can build a Sharpshooter to be a scout/spotter unit. They can get Phantom and Holotargeting doesn't break concealment. Using them as a scout seems like a valid use, but the Sniper rifle doesn't really complement that play style, whereas an SMG would. Any weapon that only needs a single (turn-ending) action to fire would also be better for after concealment is broken.
It's a little odd that Shinobi, Ranger, Assault, Technical, Specialist, and Grenadier all have multiple primary weapons they can use, while Gunner, & Sharpshooter don't have any choices.
redscare
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by redscare »

I'd say send that Sharpshooter as adviser to some haven and train a rookie with decent stats in the GTS. It's what I do with very crappy guys, regardless of class. You could even train him as office first for extra detection.
Crushing Doom
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by Crushing Doom »

sarge945 wrote:I would actually really like a "battle rifle", which has more damage and accuracy than a standard assault rifle, but a smaller clip and is only usable by Sharpshooters. Would give them a nice mobility weapon, instead of having to camp with their sniper rifle.
I miss the LW1 scout class.

Also Shinobi is a really dumb name
ScorpZero
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ScorpZero »

I think you can try it yourself and then check if your experiment went for good.

Open XComClassData.ini, find [LWS_Sharpshooter X2SoldierClassTemplate] and add +AllowedWeapons=(SlotType=eInvSlot_PrimaryWeapon, WeaponType="rifle") within its strings. It should let your sharpshooter use rifle's weapon types.

I am going to check it myself too as I also think that sharpshooter is the weakest LW classes. :(
Also Shinobi is a really dumb name
I agree. It should be renamed to scout as well with its icon change as it now makes needlessly references to japanese culture and gives weird outcomes like non-asian men becoming shinobis. Nonsense.
sarge945
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by sarge945 »

Crushing Doom wrote:Also Shinobi is a really dumb name
This. It should obviously be called the Shinoda class
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JLtheking
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by JLtheking »

Honesty I'd say that this comes part and parcel with every soldier running Not Created Equally. With every god sniper with +10 aim over regular soldiers, you have one who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

They CAN build into a pretty good concealed support spotter unit. Holotarget up to thrice a turn (not sure about cooldowns), apply +20 aim and crit and bonus, basically rupture the target (+3 damage on beam with Vital Point Targeting), all without breaking concealment.

Of course, your complaint about the Secondary Weapon is valid. It's the same deal with blade specced Shinobis though, with SMGs just being useless. Better holding something than nothing, as it were.
The Boz
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by The Boz »

Pistol.
Pistol. Please.
For Sharpshooter and Shinobi.
Optional primary.
Good lord, please, primary pistol.
ORIONOX

Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ORIONOX »

Goumindong wrote:
ORIONOX wrote:
Goumindong wrote:Equip a pistol. Its 1-4 damage (2.5 average) which puts it about the same quality as an SMG (2-4, 3 avg). It has infinite ammo and you're probably not going to use the side slots anyway.
I know, but equipping the pistol results in a movement penalty that I don't really want and I don't have another primary weapon to offset that penalty. Really all I want is to be able to equip the SMG as a sharphooter so that I can have the extra mobility. I think it's kind of ridiculous how they cant equip the SMG
What do you need the mobility for? Are you taking your sniper on hard evac timer missions? If you are, then don't do that. Bring them on call evac missions so you can sit them in one spot.

Edit: What i mean is that the Sniper, like all of the classes, has a role to play. If the sharpshooter was hyper mobile then it wouldn't be a sharpshooter anymore it would be an assault or a ranger. If you want a pure scouter the ninja does that just fine
so you're telling me that the sniper should only have 1 reasonable way to be played? sit in 1 spot and burst large enemies? because that to me seems like bad design to me. I don't necessarily NEED the mobility, I'm just saying that since that character wont EVER be using the sniper rifle it might be nice to have an alternative primary weapon.
ORIONOX

Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ORIONOX »

JLtheking wrote: Of course, your complaint about the Secondary Weapon is valid. It's the same deal with blade specced Shinobis though, with SMGs just being useless. Better holding something than nothing, as it were.
Not entirely true, the SMG gives the shinobi's a movement boost, which is definitely useful for them even if they don't plan on firing it. Thats really all I want from an alternative Primary, something that's useful even if I don't plan on using it necessarily.
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JLtheking
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by JLtheking »

ORIONOX wrote:
JLtheking wrote: Of course, your complaint about the Secondary Weapon is valid. It's the same deal with blade specced Shinobis though, with SMGs just being useless. Better holding something than nothing, as it were.
Not entirely true, the SMG gives the shinobi's a movement boost, which is definitely useful for them even if they don't plan on firing it. Thats really all I want from an alternative Primary, something that's useful even if I don't plan on using it necessarily.
By useless I meant that you were never going to shoot it :D . You only equipped it for the stats and nothing else.

I can hazard a guess that the sharpshooter wasn't meant to be able to equip the SMG because of its namesake. Can't exactly sharpshoot anything with a close range weapon.

Perhaps this is more of an issue with NCE rather than the class design? Issues tend to arise because of low aim recruits being picked for a class only good for shooting.
K200Jay
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by K200Jay »

ORIONOX wrote:I think that the Sharpshooter needs an alternative weapon to the sniper rifle for their primary weapon. Currently if you get a crappy roll of the dice and start the game with a Sharpshooter with crappy aim, they have a line of perks (holotarget perks) that allows them to be semi-useful, but they don't have any primary weapons like the SMG that they can change to that compliments their new role as a purely support unit.

On a tangential note, I think that all of the primary weapons in the game should be expanded on and given a couple extra versions, like a super heavy mini-gun that impedes movement for the gunners but does great damage and has huge ammo counts while also slows down infiltration times. A Heavy sniper with a single shot, that pierces armor..... ETC. Similarly to what you guys did in Lw1
I was also thinking that sharpshooters feel really bad. I was thinking that maybe a small buff to their main perk, or even just a sharpshooter thing of something like +5 or +10 to aim if they are in high ground would make them at least half decent. They defn. need something... I rarely use them. Even if you get lucky and have a 70-75 aim from the start, they are still not great, still lots of mediocre shots (on legend). and the AI favors high cover all the time, so ya they are really bad... they need some help
ORIONOX

Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ORIONOX »

JLtheking wrote:
ORIONOX wrote:
JLtheking wrote: Of course, your complaint about the Secondary Weapon is valid. It's the same deal with blade specced Shinobis though, with SMGs just being useless. Better holding something than nothing, as it were.
Not entirely true, the SMG gives the shinobi's a movement boost, which is definitely useful for them even if they don't plan on firing it. Thats really all I want from an alternative Primary, something that's useful even if I don't plan on using it necessarily.
By useless I meant that you were never going to shoot it :D . You only equipped it for the stats and nothing else.

I can hazard a guess that the sharpshooter wasn't meant to be able to equip the SMG because of its namesake. Can't exactly sharpshoot anything with a close range weapon.

Perhaps this is more of an issue with NCE rather than the class design? Issues tend to arise because of low aim recruits being picked for a class only good for shooting.
well it is an issue with NCE, assigning low aim people to sniper, but that could be softened if they had an alternate weapon that played into them being used as a support/scout unit, like the SMG.
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Valaska
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by Valaska »

JLtheking wrote:
ORIONOX wrote:
JLtheking wrote: Of course, your complaint about the Secondary Weapon is valid. It's the same deal with blade specced Shinobis though, with SMGs just being useless. Better holding something than nothing, as it were.
Not entirely true, the SMG gives the shinobi's a movement boost, which is definitely useful for them even if they don't plan on firing it. Thats really all I want from an alternative Primary, something that's useful even if I don't plan on using it necessarily.
By useless I meant that you were never going to shoot it :D . You only equipped it for the stats and nothing else.

I can hazard a guess that the sharpshooter wasn't meant to be able to equip the SMG because of its namesake. Can't exactly sharpshoot anything with a close range weapon.

Perhaps this is more of an issue with NCE rather than the class design? Issues tend to arise because of low aim recruits being picked for a class only good for shooting.
Well, I do kind of still use the SMG personally... Its not like you can just neglect the SMG and not use it, sometimes if you charge out and slice someone up yer just gonna end up getting yourself kill, so its way better to set them to overwatch or outright shoot. I wish the SMG's were... You know, a little bit better of course. Like seriously... They could either have more magazine, or further reach? Or at least have 1-2 more damage on the top end while keeping low end so they have more variance to their damage but make them somewhat more useful!

But yeah I dunno I always thought SMG's were absolutely trash in the original game, my Ranger got by amazingly well with their assault rifle and using reaper as they got closer. It was way more efficient and kept my ranger alive to the end mission with the highest killcount after she closed range and just started ripping things to pieces with reaper. Seriously she had almost 600 kills.

Currently I use SMG's basically when it would be too dangerous to rush out, and yeah they are absolutely trash because of the perfect storm of nerfed weapon hitting it, but at least when they do... Magically hit, the stuttermag does more damage than the ballistic at least.
ScorpZero
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ScorpZero »

I've played the Sharpshooter with added possibility to use standard rifles awhile today and for my personal taste this works quite fine, so I really encourage to give it a try and then decide how it worked for you.
Goumindong
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by Goumindong »

ORIONOX wrote:
Goumindong wrote:
ORIONOX wrote:
I know, but equipping the pistol results in a movement penalty that I don't really want and I don't have another primary weapon to offset that penalty. Really all I want is to be able to equip the SMG as a sharphooter so that I can have the extra mobility. I think it's kind of ridiculous how they cant equip the SMG
What do you need the mobility for? Are you taking your sniper on hard evac timer missions? If you are, then don't do that. Bring them on call evac missions so you can sit them in one spot.

Edit: What i mean is that the Sniper, like all of the classes, has a role to play. If the sharpshooter was hyper mobile then it wouldn't be a sharpshooter anymore it would be an assault or a ranger. If you want a pure scouter the ninja does that just fine
so you're telling me that the sniper should only have 1 reasonable way to be played? sit in 1 spot and burst large enemies? because that to me seems like bad design to me. I don't necessarily NEED the mobility, I'm just saying that since that character wont EVER be using the sniper rifle it might be nice to have an alternative primary weapon.
No. I am telling you that a sharpshooter that is more mobile than a shinobi infringes on the design space of the shinobi

There are three ways to be played. These being the "hard" sniper where you want to move precisely zero. The middle ground sniper where you move and mark when you can't fire which moves into a spotter role. And then the fully mobile sniper: where you move from spot to spot attempting to get flanks (ideally) just at the edge of vision.

These are all distinct from the pure scout shinobi, and should be distinct from the pure scout shinobi. And if you give the sharpshooter the mobility of the pure scout shinobi but also give them bonus marking then you've upended the point of the pure scout shinobi.

re: K200jay's comment about sharpshooters feeling bad.

I felt the same way. Initially i started building them as pure scouts. But this takes a LONG time in order to get right. The real power is in death from above.

Once you get to a good position (not that hard on a soft or no timer mission) you can shoot, trigger death from above, and then steady with your equipped stock. This gives them high DPR while being low risk. Allowing you to focus your defensive options elsewhere. With DGG you're going to have between 25 to 35 higher aim(and 15 to 25 crit) than a unit that has to reposition itself; and this is before you get into issues of equipment you can take (easier for sharpshooters to take special ammo) or base aim increases from the class itself.
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8wayz
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by 8wayz »

My current Sniper:
Finds an elevated vantage point.

Then you have:
Elevation bonus +10 Aim, +10 Defence;
Damn Good Ground +10 Aim, + 10 Defence;
Advanced Scope + 10 Aim;
Depth Perception PCS +5 Aim and negates 25 dodge on enemies below the Sniper.
Tracer rounds + 5 Aim.

Right off the bat I get +40 Aim which almost negates High Cover (-45 Aim). Equip a Laser Sniper rifle and you are all set.

You also get some good defence bonus and other extras. If you put on a Stock, you can steady your weapon every turn, or use the holotargerter.

The Sniper is a valid build, if you know on which missions to bring it.

You already have a Scout class in the Shinobi, you really do not want to make the Sharpshooter into a Scout/Spotter.
ORIONOX

Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by ORIONOX »

8wayz wrote:My current Sniper:
Finds an elevated vantage point.

Then you have:
Elevation bonus +10 Aim, +10 Defence;
Damn Good Ground +10 Aim, + 10 Defence;
Advanced Scope + 10 Aim;
Depth Perception PCS +5 Aim and negates 25 dodge on enemies below the Sniper.
Tracer rounds + 5 Aim.

Right off the bat I get +40 Aim which almost negates High Cover (-45 Aim). Equip a Laser Sniper rifle and you are all set.

You also get some good defence bonus and other extras. If you put on a Stock, you can steady your weapon every turn, or use the holotargerter.

The Sniper is a valid build, if you know on which missions to bring it.

You already have a Scout class in the Shinobi, you really do not want to make the Sharpshooter into a Scout/Spotter.
You're answering a question that was never asked.... I know that a sniper class is viable and can work. What I'm not okay with is that if I get a recruit with 58 aim in my gatecrasher mission who is then rolled into a sniper, I'd like to have additional options for him other than sticking him in a haven and being done with him. I want a secondary primary weapon that helps the sniper be a more successful primary support unit for those moments you have a craptastic aim rookie rolled as a sniper.
Goumindong wrote: No. I am telling you that a sharpshooter that is more mobile than a shinobi infringes on the design space of the shinobi
The sniper will never be MORE mobile than the shinobi, at best they will be equally mobile. plus the shinobi has MANY more stealth oriented skills that allow it to get deep into enemy territory without being spotted, something that the sniper even with a SMG could never accomplish. having some over lap in what roles each of the classes can fill is not a bad thing, especially when the over lapp is achieved from "off" builds that most people wont use. look at the sword shinobi vs the Assault, both are short range flanker types, but they do it in slightly different ways.



Or to fix all these issues of having bad stat/class combinations they could open up the possibilty for the GTS to be used on rookies with a pending promotion/sqauddies, so I can MAKE SURE that ultra high aim character ends up being a sniper, so that when I roll another sniper on a low aim soldier I dont care as much since my 79 aim character ended up as one instead of becoming a shinobi with 13 movement...
Last edited by ORIONOX on Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Goumindong
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Re: alternative primary for Sharshooter

Post by Goumindong »

With an SMG the sharpshooter would be as mobile as a shinobi with less need for secondary equipment (due to spotting equipment for free) which would make them more mobile. So yes, they would be a better pure scout than a Shinobi.
Last edited by Goumindong on Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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