alternative primary for Sharshooter

[Raithnor]

Just spitballing an idea here:

What about reworking the Sharpshooter so it has an Anti-Material option and an Anti-Personnel option?

The Anti-Material Sniper helps destroy the big armored targets that don't use cover. (Good for Medium Aim Soldiers)

The Anti-Personnel Sniper has a more mobile weapon and is better at picking off Infantry in cover. (Good for High Aim Soldiers)

The "Middle" path could be the "Spotter" Role focusing on using the Holotargeter. (Good for High HP/Movement Soldiers)

[ORIONOX]

With an SMG the sharpshooter would be as mobile as a shinobi with less need for secondary equipment (due to spotting equipment for free). So yes, they would be a better pure scout than a Shinobi

I disagree. The shinobi fills a unique roll where it can go on solo mission super successfully because of its ability to reduce the detection ranges of everybody around them meaning their likely hood of being spotted is tiny compared to someone like a sniper AND they can do this form the beginning of game without ANY extra abilities. The sniper only starts to be good as a stealth scout by the sergeant level when they get "phantom," by this time a shinobi of the same level will have ghost walker (which Makes a HUGE difference), Phantom, AND Tradecraft which allows them to scout far ahead of their allies without endangering them selves at all, even when the squad gets revealed.

The sniper is NOT a better scout than the shinobi, but they are better supports.

Regardless though the Shinobi has a very similar problem to the sniper, which is an over reliance on a single stat, that being mobility. Unlike the sniper though, they can immediately combat this problem by removing gear, and taking the SMG or they can build super tanky sword shinobi and just use fleche everywhere they need to go.

Also, I would settle for using the SMG on the sniper, but what I'd prefer is a scouts rifle or something like form LW1. Maybe this weapon could only give +1 or +2 mobility.

[Sines]

Pistol.
Pistol. Please.
For Sharpshooter and Shinobi.
Optional primary.
Good lord, please, primary pistol.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who wants this (though I'd also consider letting players take the Pistol instead of their secondary, and do that on any class, but that might cause lots of problems, as secondaries are basically class features). You don't have to make it any 'lighter' than an SMG. Same mobility / stealth modifiers, but you're trading damage for infinite clip size and the ability to use Pistol Perks. While it might make sense for it to be lighter than an SMG, that would be too good. As it stands, you'd already be getting +1 mobility for freeing up a utility slot for a pistol instead of a primary weapon. Just make sure it has the same 'non-automatic' tag that prevents you from using certain talents with Shotguns or Sniper Rifles.

[ORIONOX]

Pistol.
Pistol. Please.
For Sharpshooter and Shinobi.
Optional primary.
Good lord, please, primary pistol.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who wants this. You don't have to make it any 'lighter' than an SMG. Same mobility / stealth modifiers, but you're trading damage for infinite clip size and the ability to use Pistol Perks. While it might make sense for it to be lighter than an SMG, that would be too good. As it stands, you'd already be getting +1 mobility for freeing up a utility slot for a pistol instead of a primary weapon. Just make sure it has the same 'non-automatic' tag that prevents you from using certain talents with Shotguns or Sniper Rifles.

if it was usable on the shinobi, I think it would just completely outclass the SMG since it has and entire dedicated perk tree..

[Goumindong]

With an SMG the sharpshooter would be as mobile as a shinobi with less need for secondary equipment (due to spotting equipment for free). So yes, they would be a better pure scout than a Shinobi

I disagree. The shinobi fills a unique roll where it can go on solo mission super successfully because of its ability to reduce the detection ranges of everybody around them meaning their likely hood of being spotted is tiny compared to someone like a sniper AND they can do this form the beginning of game without ANY extra abilities.

The Sharpshooter fills a unique role where it can provide fire support from out of vision, allowing it to provide fire wherever it is needed and to forgo all defensive equipment and placement options. Why does it also need to be a really amazing scout?

The sharpshooters "thing" is squadsight, not phantom. The Shinobi's "thing" is phantom.

Why should the Shinobi get its unique role hedged in by the sharpshooter? Why should the sharpshooter get to be as good a pure scout as the Shinobi but also get to mark targets for bonus damage without being revealed?

[NephilimNexus]

Got a sharpshooter who can't aim? Shove them down the holotargeting and stealth branches, then use them as a spotter for your other sharpshooter who does know how to shoot.



That's how real-world militaries do things, btw.

[ORIONOX]

The Sharpshooter fills a unique role where it can provide fire support from out of vision, allowing it to provide fire wherever it is needed and to forgo all defensive equipment and placement options. Why does it also need to be a really amazing scout?

The sharpshooters "thing" is squadsight, not phantom. The Shinobi's "thing" is phantom.

Why should the Shinobi get its unique role hedged in by the sharpshooter? Why should the sharpshooter get to be as good a pure scout as the Shinobi but also get to mark targets for bonus damage without being revealed?

it doesn't need to be able to be an amazing scout, and it never will be simply because it does not have the infiltration nor defensive perks to allow it to compete as a "pure scout" against a Shinobi. As I said earlier infiltrating into enemy territory/exploring ahead of your main contingent will still be largely dominated by shinobis as it will ALWAYS be safer for shinobis because of their ability to reduce the detection radius of enemy units, plus their natural dodge progression. Along with that, they are uniquely qualified to go on solo runs because of these qualities and a small hack progression. The sniper however does have the ability to be a decent "support scout" because of their holotarget ability, but they don't have a primary weapon meshes well with this style of play.

Also "phantom" is NOT a shinobis "thing" because other classes(sharpshooter) have access to that same ability later in their progression. the second layer of Shinobi perks I think are actually much more indicitive of their role than their starting perks. unless you take them down the sword tree then their first perk is super important.

I've said it once and I'll say it again I'd settle for using the SMG, but I'd much rather have a scout rifle that gives mobility(maybe less than an SMG) that does not give the stealth benefits that the SMG gets.

Got a sharpshooter who can't aim? Shove them down the holotargeting and stealth branches, then use them as a spotter for your other sharpshooter who does know how to shoot.



That's how real-world militaries do things, btw.

I know that..... thats what I'm saying here...... I want a primary weapon thats more in line for a spotter.... you don't see the spotter in this picture(and I'm pretty sure you wont ever) carrying around their own sniper rifle do you? no. they probably have some sort of small arms on them, but they do not have their own sniper rifle.

[Sylvester]

Got a sharpshooter who can't aim? Shove them down the holotargeting and stealth branches, then use them as a spotter for your other sharpshooter who does know how to shoot.



That's how real-world militaries do things, btw.

Except this is a video game and your entire game is based on the starting roster, whom you will be using for a good 20-30+ missions without getting much in the way of new recruits, and they need to be good enough to actually use at all and not hamstrung by bad stat randomization. I've restarted multiple times before settling on console commands & ini editing to solve some outrageous stats at the start which made a roster of 20 more like a roster of 13.

Holotargeting is an unappealing option which is a catalyst for the argument. I can just use explosives and suppression. I can do anything else that means I kill them faster or cautiously rather than take a soldier who just has a dinky sidearm that can only target, at best, 2 people for bonuses I can get in better ways and be weighed down by a sniper rifle he can't use. Anything that makes the holotargeter worth using means not taking perks that would help them better aid the team by killing x-rays

[ORIONOX]

Holotargeting is an unappealing option which is a catalyst for the argument. I can just use explosives and suppression. I can do anything else that means I kill them faster or cautiously rather than take a soldier who just has a dinky sidearm that can only target, at best, 2 people for bonuses I can get in better ways and be weighed down by a sniper rifle he can't use. Anything that makes the holotargeter worth using means not taking perks that would help them better aid the team by killing x-rays

I actually really like the holotargeter. I just hate how any unit that I specced into using it super well is straddles with a gun they can't use effectively.

[mattprice516]

For those who hate the Not Created Equally stats, there's always the option to turn it off...

[Goumindong]

it doesn't need to be able to be an amazing scout, and it never will be simply because it does not have the infiltration nor defensive perks to allow it to compete as a "pure scout" against a Shinobi. As I said earlier infiltrating into enemy territory/exploring ahead of your main contingent will still be largely dominated by shinobis as it will ALWAYS be safer for shinobis because of their ability to reduce the detection radius of enemy units, plus their natural dodge progression. Along with that, they are uniquely qualified to go on solo runs because of these qualities and a small hack progression. The sniper however does have the ability to be a decent "support scout" because of their holotarget ability, but they don't have a primary weapon meshes well with this style of play.

Also "phantom" is NOT a shinobis "thing" because other classes(sharpshooter) have access to that same ability later in their progression. the second layer of Shinobi perks I think are actually much more indicitive of their role than their starting perks. unless you take them down the sword tree then their first perk is super important.

Like the sniper rifle being the sharpshooters "thing" Phantom is Shinobi's "thing". Its its first ability and defining of every member of the class. There is no "non phantom Shinobi" just as there is no "non-sniper rifle sharpshooter" SMG's reduce detection radius and increase mobility. There is no reason to take this advantage of the Shinobi and give it to the sharpshooter simply because you want the sharpshooter to be a better scout than the Shinobi.

And yes, a better primary scout. Strictly. Not because Shinobi get defensive abilities (which are pretty worthless while concealed) but because the ability to meaningfully contribute while concealed without revealing yourself is insanely powerful. And any phantom that has that will be better than one that does not.

Their ability to go on solo runs is non-sequitur. You might as well bring up the ability of sharpshooters to shoot from outside of detection range and also use sniper rifles and mark units and use serial with the highest damage weapon in the game (+1 for center mass +2 for hunters instinct) and also to give every allied unit +10 aim, +10 critical chance, +3 damage to two+ enemies per turn without breaking concealement as to why they should not have as many advantages in concealment as the Shinobi.

If you were going to do anything you should give the holotargeting to the spotter class

[ORIONOX]

Like the sniper rifle being the sharpshooters "thing" Phantom is Shinobi's "thing". Its its first ability and defining of every member of the class. There is no "non phantom Shinobi" just as there is no "non-sniper rifle sharpshooter" SMG's reduce detection radius and increase mobility. There is no reason to take this advantage of the Shinobi and give it to the sharpshooter simply because you want the sharpshooter to be a better scout than the Shinobi.

And yes, a better primary scout. Strictly. Not because Shinobi get defensive abilities (which are pretty worthless while concealed) but because the ability to meaningfully contribute while concealed without revealing yourself is insanely powerful. And any phantom that has that will be better than one that does not.

Their ability to go on solo runs is non-sequitur. You might as well bring up the ability of sharpshooters to shoot from outside of detection range and also use sniper rifles and mark units and use serial with the highest damage weapon in the game (+1 for center mass +2 for hunters instinct) and also to give every allied unit +10 aim, +10 critical chance, +3 damage to two+ enemies per turn without breaking concealement as to why they should not have as many advantages in concealment as the Shinobi.

If you were going to do anything you should give the holotargeting to the spotter class

1) I dont want the sharpshooter to be BETTER than the shinobi, I just want a pure holotarget build to have a weapon that compliments that style of playing the class.

2) I'd argue that their is a sharpshooter without a sniper, in execution while not in actuality, since one with low aim might as well not have the sniper rifle. Even if it is equipped, it serves no purpose for a crappy aim sharpshooter.

3) I've said multiple times that I'd RATHER a custom scout rifle for the sharphooter class that doesn't give any of the infiltration bonuses, but that I'd SETTLE for just using the SMG if that's what was preferred

4)No.... A sniper specced as a scout will almost always be with the rest of the team or left in a high vantage area where being seen is minimized and where sight of enemies is relatively un-obscured (similairly to how snipers are used now), and because they will almost always be with the team, they are not operating as an effective scout, instead they are more operating as a support than a scout. shinobis on the other hand, can be clear across the map, finding all the inactivated pods/keeping track of their location feeding you valuable information about what direction enemies are coming from and how fast they might reach your position, and they can do this safe in the knowledge that they most likely wont be caught because of reduced detection range, and even IF they do they can easily get away because of their defensive perks. that is what the job of a true scout is.

5)Yes, the sniper is better as a support unit then a shinobi (this might have something to do with the fact that the sniper actually has support abilities when the shinobi doesnt), but that's a completely different role then what I use the shinobi for, which is advanced scouting and keeping track of un-activated pods but this is the case whether you give them the option to have an SMG/scout rifle or not. An SMG/scout rifle would just give them the option to be slightly more mobile than a sniper who plans on sniping.

6) I'd like to point out you cant multi-target and get "hunters instinct" and if you get "vital point" you then can't get conceal which CAN mess up your ability to stay in stealth.

7) The ability to do solo missions is very relevant because BOTH classes have the option to attempt them, but really only one class, has the ability to be super successful at them, even when the odds are against them. The things you brought up for the sharpshooter have no point of comparison to what the shinobi can do.

[Goumindong]

1) I dont want the sharpshooter to be BETTER than the shinobi, I just want a pure holotarget build to have a weapon that compliments that style of playing the class.

1) The first sentence contradicts the second

2) Equip a scope. Equip a stock. Note that the sniper has the highest base aim progression in the game.

3) Take snap shot. Now you have the same infiltration profile as the sniper rifle but have the ability to move and shoot. In fact its precisely the same scout rifle from LW 1.

4) Why would you do that? You can move and then use the holo targeter. You are concealed, you can just move to a safe spot and then use it. You can even do that if you get hemmed in. Also you keep saying that the Shinobi has reduced detection range. Do you think that is its passive or something? Because they have to take it, and the one that isn't an activated ability is kinda small.

5) Why do you care about unactivated pods that are beyond the ability of engaging you? There is no reason why the Shinobi should be further out than your sharpshooter

6) Conceal is only really valuable if you do something intentionally to break concealment.

7) Every class has the ability to attempt them. And its still not relevant.

[JLtheking]

For those who hate the Not Created Equally stats, there's always the option to turn it off...

Don't you love it when people are so passionate about your game that they will fight over it Man, if something happened like that for something that I created, I would be super proud of myself for creating a product that people legitimately feel is worth taking the time and effort to comment about improving it. I'd take this as a positive sign rather than a negative one!

But at least the debate is an interesting one. Personally, I think that if you swapped the secondaries and relevant perks between the sharpshooter and the shinobi, it would be a better fit. Stealth SMG + spotter means the shinobi as a designated scout/spotter from concealment. You choose between staying in concealment better, flanking your enemies better, or providing better holotargeter buffs from concealment. It means that the relevant specs all revolve around scouting around in concealment in some flavor, and gives good options to spec around poor mobility, aim or defense stats. The Rogue Class mod for vanilla does this pretty well.

The sharpshooter with a sword would be the designated hunter killer DPS class. Clear cover/holotargetbuff with other classes, boom headshot with the sniper. Control the map with flashbang grenadiers and area suppression gunners, cross-map assassination fleche with the sword. Have low aim/high mobility? Spec into sword for higher damage fleches. You should be controlling the map anyway so missing wouldn't too disastrous. High aim/low mobility? Designated sniper with death from above, serial etc. Think Grimy's HeadHunter class with less gimmicky RNG. Sword/sniper also allows the designated DPS to excel at whatever range you want to spec into, and/or cover your weaknesses.

[ORIONOX]

1) The first sentence contradicts the second

2) Equip a scope. Equip a stock. Note that the sniper has the highest base aim progression in the game.

3) Take snap shot. Now you have the same infiltration profile as the sniper rifle but have the ability to move and shoot. In fact its precisely the same scout rifle from LW 1.

4) Why would you do that? You can move and then use the holo targeter. You are concealed, you can just move to a safe spot and then use it. You can even do that if you get hemmed in. Also you keep saying that the Shinobi has reduced detection range. Do you think that is its passive or something? Because they have to take it, and the one that isn't an activated ability is kinda small.

5) Why do you care about unactivated pods that are beyond the ability of engaging you? There is no reason why the Shinobi should be further out than your sharpshooter

6) Conceal is only really valuable if you do something intentionally to break concealment.

7) Every class has the ability to attempt them. And its still not relevant.

1) It was 1 sentence not 2, and even if it was it didn't contradict itself.... having a primary weapon that compliments the Sharpshooters ability to use the holotargeter doesn't make the sharphooter better than the shinobi.

2) I know all of this can help your sniper, but the fact remains a sniper with a strong base aim is always going to be better.

3) I don't get any extra movement from it and I'm still stuck with a weapon that the character can't use effectively, plus now I've given the character a perk that's useless on them and missed out on rapid targeting which helps tremendously for a support focused sharpshooter.

4) I'd keep my sniper with my squad because their holo-targeting isn't worth a damn thing unless people are shooting at the people I've holo-targeted. Also I know the detection radius is a perk you have to pick, but its a damn good one when your trying not to be seen, and while the one that is a passive is kind of small it usually takes away 1 square from normal soldiers and usually 2 squares from drones, which is invaluable when trying to stealth around crap, especially if you layer the activated perk on top of it.

5) Because the most annoying thing ever is having an unactivated pod stumble onto your fight with a different pod, Especially if its from a direction that you don't have cover in. it also allows me to move around the map without activating too many pods on my turn giving them a free scamper move.

6) Like maybe having you SUPPORT sniper throw a smoke or flash?

7) Still very much relevant because it is something that the class is uniquely suited for.

The sharpshooter with a sword would be the designated hunter killer DPS class. Clear cover/holotargetbuff with other classes, boom headshot with the sniper. Control the map with flashbang grenadiers and area suppression gunners, cross-map assassination fleche with the sword. Have low aim/high mobility? Spec into sword for higher damage fleches. You should be controlling the map anyway so missing wouldn't too disastrous. High aim/low mobility? Designated sniper with death from above, serial etc. Think Grimy's HeadHunter class with less gimmicky RNG. Sword/sniper also allows the designated DPS to excel at whatever range you want to spec into, and/or cover your weaknesses.

Not a bad idea, but that's a lot more work than adding another weapon and a lot harder to find the perfect balance for.

[JLtheking]

Not a bad idea, but that's a lot more work than adding another weapon and a lot harder to find the perfect balance for.

Not really. Editing class perks and primary/secondary equipment only requires the editing the ClassData.ini file. Anyone can do it to their own personal game without knowing anything.

Adding for instance a marksman rifle, requires creation of new weapon templates and built items, new weapon models for all 5 tiers etc etc.

Unless you mean just allowing the sharpshooter to use rifles. But that would be lame

[ORIONOX]

Not a bad idea, but that's a lot more work than adding another weapon and a lot harder to find the perfect balance for.

Not really. Editing class perks and primary/secondary equipment only requires the editing the ClassData.ini file. Anyone can do it to their own personal game without knowing anything.

Adding for instance a marksman rifle, requires creation of new weapon templates and built items, new weapon models for all 5 tiers etc etc.

Unless you mean just allowing the sharpshooter to use rifles. But that would be lame

I meant getting the balance was harder. =P

[JLtheking]

The Batle Rifle Pack https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =732321325 was a pretty cool mod that I ran before LW2. It was balanced pretty well (minus 1 ammo for Battle Rifle's longer range and +1 damage, -15 Aim for ability to be fired after moving for those flanking scouts (with range bonuses maxing out at near visual range to recoup the -15))

Can't wait for it to be updated for LW2 and I believe that's exactly what you are asking for

[aedn]

The Batle Rifle Pack https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =732321325 was a pretty cool mod that I ran before LW2. It was balanced pretty well (minus 1 ammo for Battle Rifle's longer range and +1 damage, -15 Aim for ability to be fired after moving for those flanking scouts (with range bonuses maxing out at near visual range to recoup the -15))

Can't wait for it to be updated for LW2 and I believe that's exactly what you are asking for

This would be ideal. I have similar issues as the OP, but it's due more to the problems with taking snipers on the majority of early game missions, as they have to many drawbacks to warrant using them, excluding the more static missions like haven defense or supply raid, which restricts the growth.