Legendary/Impossible Balance

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cmdrspyker92
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:48 am

Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

First off, let me be clear, this is a good feeling. Of self imposed masochism. I'm one of the few people that finds delicious joy in ironman man impossible with longwar and the constant brutality of it. I'm one of the very lucky people that even got to see this lovely screen after like 3 months of play.

Image

That said. I scoured the boards a bit, and I didn't see any threads pertaining particularly to legendary/impossible balance, and the overall curve of that game. This is the only version of longwar I choose to play as I feel its in the greatest spirit of the mod. Which means its fine tuned balanced between actually beatable and bullshit is something I hold very dear to my heart.
I can't even get out the gate on the first handful of missions. Enemy pods of 6-8 units (one of which always being either a grenadier, officer or sectoid) combined with the stun droids means its nearly impossible to do even half of the first of the first 5 or 6 missions. Sectoids are overwhelmingly aggressive with mind control, and the drones starting with 2 armor is mind fumblingly difficult to deal with before you have any relevant items. [praise rng jesus for a good damage roll]

Currently a lot of this pertains to infiltration. The first 3 missions get flung at you pretty quickly and the infiltration times for at least one of them will be literally impossible to do [Read: 2 days], so the only option is to load out in full into "Heavy" opposition and pray for the best [not recommended mind you, but ill use it as an example]. With just 1 drop of reinforcements, I rolled into over 20 enemies, a 2nd drop ship pushed it closer to 30. On mission 2. [My first was a poor performance of an extraction where an enemy pod literally sat on my extraction point and proceeded to maul my escaping squad]. Even if my 8 soldiers killed 2-3 enemies every single turn [difficult to do as all non-basic troopers have more then 4 health] , I would not be able to beat the mission within the mission timer of 8 turns. Similar experiences occurred on several other missions until I was forced into my 3rd restart.

I realize that Long War is a mod where you're supposed to balance potential gains vs risk. But out of the first 6 missions I've had sufficient infiltration time to get enemy preparedness down to "light" or "extremely light" only twice. And the others just turn into massive grinds where its impossible to beat both the mission timer and the quantity of enemies for a success. Is it really WAD if I'm only to play a 3rd of the mission opportunities available to me?

I would love to hear some thoughts on this. And for the other peeps, pertaining specifically to impossible balance, what grievances do you have?
trihero
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by trihero »

I realize that Long War is a mod where you're supposed to balance potential gains vs risk. But out of the first 6 missions I've had sufficient infiltration time to get enemy preparedness down to "light" or "extremely light" only twice. And the others just turn into massive grinds where its impossible to beat both the mission timer and the quantity of enemies for a success. Is it really WAD if I'm only to play a 3rd of the mission opportunities available to me?

I would love to hear some thoughts on this. And for the other peeps, pertaining specifically to impossible balance, what grievances do you have?
You answered your own question, you are SUPPOSED to skip bad missions, and that is indeed quite a bit of them. And yes skipping 2/3 of the missions does not sound unreasonable the way they designed it. I too tried legendary for a couple times; the first time I charged in even at 4 day infiltrations and it was horrible. You just need to ignore anything that literally doesn't give you 100% infiltration time (6 days or so). At 100% infiltration you "only" get 4 man pods for the first few missions which is much better than 6+ man pods. The game offers you many many mission opportunities, you do not/cannot take them all, I think you let your screenshot get to your head when you only have 2 missions lost, so you have a perfectionist inside you. That is fine, be perfectionist on the tactical level but not the strategic.

That being said, make sure you have a lot of rebels on intel to help smooth out the mission luck over time. You should only have 1 rebel on recruiting, zero on supplies, and rest intel. And scan hard with avenger in a region you want to operate in. More intel rebels= better duration on missions, ON AVERAGE. You will still skip a lot of missions. Especially when you don't have enough non-rookies to take on missions.

I have no idea if legendary is beatable currently, but the first few months are I think possible.
LeaderEnemyBoss
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

trihero wrote:
I realize that Long War is a mod where you're supposed to balance potential gains vs risk. But out of the first 6 missions I've had sufficient infiltration time to get enemy preparedness down to "light" or "extremely light" only twice. And the others just turn into massive grinds where its impossible to beat both the mission timer and the quantity of enemies for a success. Is it really WAD if I'm only to play a 3rd of the mission opportunities available to me?

I would love to hear some thoughts on this. And for the other peeps, pertaining specifically to impossible balance, what grievances do you have?
You answered your own question, you are SUPPOSED to skip bad missions, and that is indeed quite a bit of them. And yes skipping 2/3 of the missions does not sound unreasonable the way they designed it. I too tried legendary for a couple times; the first time I charged in even at 4 day infiltrations and it was horrible. You just need to ignore anything that literally doesn't give you 100% infiltration time (6 days or so). At 100% infiltration you "only" get 4 man pods for the first few missions which is much better than 6+ man pods. The game offers you many many mission opportunities, you do not/cannot take them all, I think you let your screenshot get to your head when you only have 2 missions lost, so you have a perfectionist inside you. That is fine, be perfectionist on the tactical level but not the strategic.

That being said, make sure you have a lot of rebels on intel to help smooth out the mission luck over time. You should only have 1 rebel on recruiting, zero on supplies, and rest intel. And scan hard with avenger in a region you want to operate in. More intel rebels= better duration on missions, ON AVERAGE. You will still skip a lot of missions. Especially when you don't have enough non-rookies to take on missions.

I have no idea if legendary is beatable currently, but the first few months are I think possible.
Its beatable, beta testers did it i think. Additionally you can take on low infiltration time missions with small stealth squads. Some of them a beatable with a single soldiers (e.g. vip executions, vip escorts). It wont work everytime, but as long as you play save and bail as soon as you notice its not going to work, you will at least get some xp for your efforts.
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xwynns
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by xwynns »

Welcome to my world!

I can confirm that legend is beatable. I'm doing very well in my youtube Legend series right now, as is JoINrbs on his twitch stream. Yes it is by design that you should only do 33% of your initial missions. You may want to either read up on the mechanics or turn the difficulty down a tab as Legend in LW2 is really meant for people who have a supreme grasp of the mechanics.
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by mattprice516 »

xwynns wrote:Legend in LW2 is really meant for people who have a supreme grasp of the mechanics.
Can't really stress that enough. You mentioned the first few missions getting "thrown" at you with low infiltration time. That's not actually a scripted thing, it's under the player's control and is directly related to the number of rebels you have on Intel (and there's some randomness in there as well). LW2 has a lot of those kinds of mechanics - and even the Legend testers who know basically all of them extremely well still can't beat the game sometimes.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by cmdrspyker92 »


You answered your own question, you are SUPPOSED to skip bad missions, and that is indeed quite a bit of them. And yes skipping 2/3 of the missions does not sound unreasonable the way they designed it.


This is often the most difficult aspect of talking about balance with this form of mod, especially at it's highest difficulty. Overcoming the stigma of "too hard, git gud" to become "consistently feasible"

I'll counter this with the argument of division of resources. The squad mechanics allows you to keep looking at constant infiltration timers for your preferred op, we'll assume that of your early roster you split your guys up into 3 squads of 6 to have a realistic goal of getting at least 1 squad solid for 1 of the ops available at any given time. Do you split up your initial squad so that each of those squads has 2 squaddies and 4 rookies? How are you getting enough combat experience for your roster? Im pushing into the end of the 2nd month and I'm waiting for rulers to start popping up because I know any mission they pop up on (RNG) is essentially going to be an autolose. If not a run for my life op. There is no feasible way I can deal with a ruler and sectoid squad or stun lancer squad at the same time. Purely based on the rank/xp of most of my men.

tl;dr, there's too much RNG in the early game on the strategic layer for the current curve of difficulty on the tactical layer. I restarted legendary 4 times before I was able to get a string of "x light" resistance missions going in order to build a decent roster. Now that my GTS is up dealing with rookies is no longer an issue, but it still takes a month to get there to pump out 2 squaddies every 10 days. There's not enough the player can do here to curve things in their direction in the early days to keep up with the early campaign. It's easier to just restart and hope the RNG gods favor you a little bit better. Slow access to the GTS punishes the player from being able to solidify their roster into a usable format.
I too tried legendary for a couple times; the first time I charged in even at 4 day infiltration and it was horrible.
Try impossible. There's no conceivable way to win these missions you skip or lose the squad. Even if you somehow can frag, suppress and stun your way through the 20ish initial, the rapid response of enemy reinforcements will overwhelm you. I'm not against this design philosophy, but I'm also losing 2/3rds of the potential income game by just "not bothering" with these missions. This is overwhelmingly counter productive.

That said, I will give the mechanic tons of props for making me use different squad sizes
You just need to ignore anything that literally doesn't give you 100% infiltration time (6 days or so). At 100% infiltration you "only" get 4 man pods for the first few missions which is much better than 6+ man pods.
It's more the pod size + the health buffs at day 1 then anything. The enemy is killable, yes, but difficult, and it pushes you too close to strict timers. I just did a jail break op with 12 turns, light, took me 5 turns to reach the target, and would of taken 3 to extract all units. This is almost strictly sprinting and doesn't represent the combat with the aliens. I had to leave 3 of the civies behind simply because it was too far for them to run under overwatch fire, and I didn't have time to just straight kill the aliens either.

The design philosophy is fine, extracting under heavy fire is a refreshing turn of pace, but turn timers with the quantity of fire that I'm receiving early on is making far too many of these missions be decided by 1 or 2 die rolls instead of any actual form of skill at the game.

In LW1 much of the basic alien improvements started coming on the 2-4th mission, such as the health and will improvements for sectoids, allowing you to get a small pool of not-rookies going before it slammed you with a mixture of health buffed sectoids with drone and thinmen supported pods, it also meant if RNG favored you, you had a good option of being able to cheese the transport landing if you could figure a way to deal with the early cryssalids.

In LW1 you would skip 20-40% of missions on impossible. At least early on, or any just straight battleship or carrier landing was near suicidal [shooting one down usually wasnt much easier], and the AI loved its bait and switch tactics with mediums. Eventually though you're able to build into your preferred strategy you tend to take a lot more risks. Rocketeers with overwatch trees solved problems when used en masse.
The game offers you many many mission opportunities, you do not/cannot take them all, I think you let your screenshot get to your head when you only have 2 missions lost, so you have a perfectionist inside you. That is fine, be perfectionist on the tactical level but not the strategic.
There's alot of health padding in LW1 that you can abuse with certain trees [Extra conditioning], and early and aggressive access to smoke minimizes casualties, particularly when you just use SHIVs endlessly as bait as early on they're the only thing that can reliably one shot drones. Ultimately, its access to the dedicated tank MECs that makes the campaign shift into consistently doable.

The vast majority of those deaths were on those 2 missions... One of them was the base defense. Full squad wipe, mostly max or near max rank soldiers. Closing that campaign with a rebuilt A squad around The Doorn was probably the best part of that campaign. I was no where near perfectionist.
That being said, make sure you have a lot of rebels on intel to help smooth out the mission luck over time. You should only have 1 rebel on recruiting, zero on supplies, and rest intel. And scan hard with avenger in a region you want to operate in. More intel rebels= better duration on missions, ON AVERAGE. You will still skip a lot of missions. Especially when you don't have enough non-rookies to take on missions.


The impact of this is so overwhelmingly minor and "under the hood" early on that its almost forgettable. Its great now that I have the potential to start making advent legions shuffle around, but there's negligible [seen] benefit from the player perspective of doing this. If I hadn't read out the entire LW guide, I wouldn't of had any reason to do this. And even then I'm dissatisfied with the results so far from a purely intelligence perspective.
I have no idea if legendary is beatable currently, but the first few months are I think possible.
More than likely, the perk trees are definitely good enough for things like gunners and grenadiers. And the team has done well before on making the final few missions overwhelming, but beatable. However, imo, the early game needs to be tweaked to allow this this opportunity to be more open.
xwynns wrote:You may want to either read up on the mechanics or turn the difficulty down a tab as Legend in LW2 is really meant for people who have a supreme grasp of the mechanics.
Unacceptable. There are no other difficulty levels.
mattprice516 wrote:
xwynns wrote:Legend in LW2 is really meant for people who have a supreme grasp of the mechanics.
Can't really stress that enough. You mentioned the first few missions getting "thrown" at you with low infiltration time. That's not actually a scripted thing, it's under the player's control and is directly related to the number of rebels you have on Intel (and there's some randomness in there as well). LW2 has a lot of those kinds of mechanics - and even the Legend testers who know basically all of them extremely well still can't beat the game sometimes.
This is my point, there's too much RNG in the early game around intel gathering and infiltration times. Which in turn makes far too many missions inconceivable for the first couple of months and turns others that should be reasonable into bloodbaths.

If for example, you're unable to get more resistance personal in the two months or so because RNG has decided that the only ops you get with that reward you're unable to deploy to due to the level of resistance, you have a compounding problem based on the RNG. Weak intelligence gathering stagnates your need for additional resources, which prevents from getting better at intel and shifting resistance members around.
aedn
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by aedn »

cmdrspyker92 wrote:

tl;dr, there's too much RNG in the early game on the strategic layer for the current curve of difficulty on the tactical layer. I restarted legendary 4 times before I was able to get a string of "x light" resistance missions going in order to build a decent roster. Now that my GTS is up dealing with rookies is no longer an issue, but it still takes a month to get there to pump out 2 squaddies every 10 days. There's not enough the player can do here to curve things in their direction in the early days to keep up with the early campaign. It's easier to just restart and hope the RNG gods favor you a little bit better. Slow access to the GTS punishes the player from being able to solidify their roster into a usable format.

This is my point, there's too much RNG in the early game around intel gathering and infiltration times. Which in turn makes far too many missions inconceivable for the first couple of months and turns others that should be reasonable into bloodbaths.

If for example, you're unable to get more resistance personal in the two months or so because RNG has decided that the only ops you get with that reward you're unable to deploy to due to the level of resistance, you have a compounding problem based on the RNG. Weak intelligence gathering stagnates your need for additional resources, which prevents from getting better at intel and shifting resistance members around.
there is an insane amount of RNG to deal with in the early game. I am on my 8th or 9th Legend game, playing honestman after the first couple encountered corrupted saves. The RNG though tends to work in your favor as much as the aliens. There are specific missions i have learned to just not attempt depending on the infiltration timer, namely vip extractions.

However, you can pretty much manage to work your way through it by cherry picking mission types. You really should not rely on the GTS to train rookies, just like in LW you want to train your rookies via missions as much as possible. If you have NCE enabled, then you want to keep a few good stat guys to train once you get the GTS built, but the majority should be trained via mission experience.

I have noticed a significant increase in mission density with all "intel" start which allows me to cycle more missions, even if i do not get the ones i want. its pretty reasonable to be able to do 50-66% of your early missions in month 1, compared to the 33% number referenced. Maybe its just RNG as you state, but with an intel focus i tend to see quite a few "jailbreak" missions which is what i use to train rookies. Most are either light or lower in month one, and you do not need to really fight provided you plan your movement well.

Getting past month 2 is tough, i have only done it once, as far as alien rulers personally, after getting 3 game ending wipes on the big snek, i just disabled it, i do not think alien rulers is balanced in LW2 at the moment. every time i see the snake, its at the end of month two on specific mission types, and its been almost impossible to fight him since he shows up when your engaged.
trihero
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by trihero »

The impact of this is so overwhelmingly minor and "under the hood" early on that its almost forgettable. Its great now that I have the potential to start making advent legions shuffle around, but there's negligible [seen] benefit from the player perspective of doing this. If I hadn't read out the entire LW guide, I wouldn't of had any reason to do this. And even then I'm dissatisfied with the results so far from a purely intelligence perspective.
It's not overwhelmingly minor. With 5 intel rebels + avenger, in legendary my first three missions were 6 day timers. You can easily get manageable timers in the early game on Legendary. Stop freaking out if in the first week you don't get any nice missions. Is there someone with a gun to your head that shoots you if you don't do any missions in one week?

I'm really not sure why you're so upset over having to pick and choose missions. They designed LW2 to throw more missions at you than you can do at a given time, but it works out fine in the end because there's a sheer volume of missions. You are not meant to do every mission that comes your way as in Impossible. You need to understand this and accept it. This isn't Impossible.

Doing 100% of 500 missions is the same as doing 33% of 1500 missions. Understand the point I'm making? This isn't balanced the same way as Impossible. Maybe you're really hurt because you're used to the style of Impossible where you're expected to do any mission that comes your way.

A couple more specific things that may help:

1) research resistance comms asap and save your 80 intel to expand to a nearby region. The region you start in is level 2 strength on Legendary, but the adjacent terrirtories are level 1. Looking for missions in an easier zone might help you train new troops

2) try to bring 1-2 rookies per mission early on. Like you noted the GTS is too slow to train rookies from scratch.

3) sell most of the stuff you get from the initial mission immediately to the black market and try to see if you can get an early engineer to finish to get your structures going

People have already beaten LW2 on legendary, so you can object all you want on an "intelligence" level but I feel like you just need to relax and maybe watch some streams like that guy above who posted. Again, facts are it's already been done, and you have examples to currently watch how they're doing.

I don't think Legendary is necessarily 100% balanced - as you can see in the upcoming 1.1 notes, the alien rulers are being pushed back for instance. I have no experience with fighting alien rulers on legendary on maps where you have tiers. Seems like it would be really really crazy especailly with 4 turn evac wait times, so you'd have to pack tons of dps to shoo shoo them away.

I also admit that there are a lot of "under the hood" mechanics they didn't spell out. But like that designer guy said, legendary is supposed to be you done your homework and know the mechanics, and even then it's not supposed to be a guaranteed win.
ShockmasterFred
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by ShockmasterFred »

"Unacceptable. There is no other difficulty."

That statement negates any validity your critique may have. What you are essentially saying is "I already have he requisite skill so any problems I have are with he game and not my ability".

You beat LW1 on I/I, congratulations, it's a hell of an achievement. When I did it after god knows how many tries, I was ecstatic. You know what though? That has zero bearing on LW2. It's a totally different game. If your critique is full of comparisons to LW1, it's already using the wrong context. Xwynns said that Legend is only for people that have an incredibly thorough grasp on the mechanics. You clearly don't at this point. I'm not saying there aren't balance issues with the game because there are, but when you come at it from a perspective of "I'm fine. I don't need to change, the game does" your criticism is dead in the water. You should be playing on Commander or Normal if you are having that much trouble. I am playing on Commander and finding it to be quite a challenge. You don't seem willing to meet any of the mechanics half way even, it's just "Im not doing well, so the game isn't balanced". That just isn't true. Oh well, I hope you still have fun with the game and come around on it. Either way good luck, and I hope all is well for you, as I'm not trying to create hard feelings.
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Legendary/Impossible Balance

Post by mattprice516 »

Trihero is correct. The impact from putting more rebels on Intel early on is about as far from "overwhelmingly minor" as it could possibly be. Rebels on the Intel job is the ONLY way you can detect missions - that and the Avenger scanning. Good play in the strategic layer is distributing your rebels so that you get the right balance of resources (money, missions, manpower) you need at any given time.

Going from 2 to 6 rebels on Intel isn't overwhelmingly minor, it means you'll detect maybe twice as many missions and with much better timers. Missions in LW2 are the result of detecting things the aliens are already doing. You don't really create missions so much as realize they are there. If you put no one on Intel so you won't get too many missions, there's still just as many missions going on behind the scenes (you just don't know about them). Detecting more missions (and skipping more) means you're just picking your targets more carefully. That's an indispensable part of strategic play in LW2.
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