New and Improved Dark Events Thread

infidel901
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by infidel901 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:33 pm

Yep. Ok.

I have decided to install one of the " an easier war" mods, that causes DE's to last only a month or two at most.

nightwyrm
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by nightwyrm » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:39 pm

Having the game tell you which DE a counter-DE mission is stopping would also really be helpful.

DougS2K
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by DougS2K » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:41 pm

infidel901 wrote:Yep. Ok.

I have decided to install one of the " an easier war" mods, that causes DE's to last only a month or two at most.
Does this work with campaigns in progress? I've heard conflicting stories on whether it does or not.

GavinRuneblade
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by GavinRuneblade » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:07 pm

nightwyrm wrote:Having the game tell you which DE a counter-DE mission is stopping would also really be helpful.
The one that came up for me last night told me which de it was for. Maybe you didn't identify yours? I know I sometimes get messages asking me to waste intel identifying des.

nightwyrm
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by nightwyrm » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:10 pm

GavinRuneblade wrote:
nightwyrm wrote:Having the game tell you which DE a counter-DE mission is stopping would also really be helpful.
The one that came up for me last night told me which de it was for. Maybe you didn't identify yours? I know I sometimes get messages asking me to waste intel identifying des.
That might be it. I'll have to double check when I get back.

Wuschel
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Wuschel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:33 pm

I can understand that permanent Dark Events are somewhat needed for the intended increase in difficulty over the time.

But in my current game the 3rd dark event was rapid response and since then i am mostly grenade/rocket charging and getting as fast as possible to the evac zone as possible (And i am much more save scumming than before). Overall the enjoyment of the game has dropped.

Dark events should hurt and impact the game but there should be a way to get rid of them.

I would wish/suggest following:
- Every time a dark event successfully gets activated give us a research project to counter this event.
- Let this research project be pricey. Maybe 100? intel and 10? Days research time.
- After the research is complete a mission spawns to eliminate the dark event.
Viper round -> Data vault recover mission for a vaccine
Rapid response -> Kill a troop column
Armor -> Blow up a facility
Elite units -> Kill a VIP (training officer)
......

If the mission success, the dark event goes away and back into the pile of dark events that can appear.

I would like this suggestion, because you can get rid of "nasty" events, but you must decide:
- Is it worth it to burn the intel for another region contact
- Is it worth the research time to counter +5aim on the enemy or did i prefer to research the next weapon tier

It should be expensive enough that you cant´t afford to get rid of everything, but there should be a way to get rid of nasty dark events.

Based on the let´s plays i watch and my own play some people get relative soft dark events and get the missions to counter most of them with plenty of infiltration time. Other People get more unpleasant dark event and don´t find the missions to stop them. There should be a mechanic the even this out.

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3tamatulg
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by 3tamatulg » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:50 am

Wuschel wrote:Based on the let´s plays i watch and my own play some people get relative soft dark events and get the missions to counter most of them with plenty of infiltration time. Other People get more unpleasant dark event and don´t find the missions to stop them. There should be a mechanic the even this out.
This is the problem itself. Rethinking it actually, both the suggestion I made in the other DE thread and your suggestion here don't fix the problem: A campaign getting hit by lots of hard DEs still has a much harder time if they want to counter them, while a campaign with soft DEs can easily just ignore them.

So my suggestion is this: Throw twice as many DEs at us, but have a mechanism where we can discard a DE every time a pair is thrown at us. This should reduce the (massive) variance between two different campaigns getting a soft run of DEs vs a hard run of DEs.

I would also for the sake of sanity add an expiration timer to active DEs since the stacking gets ridiculous after playing a campaign for a while.

Tuhalu
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Tuhalu » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:42 am

It would be nice if the Dark Events had tiers. Some Dark Events can be more problematic than others and delaying their appearance until later would smooth the difficulty progression.

Morningkill
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Morningkill » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:04 am

infidel901 wrote:I have decided to install one of the " an easier war" mods, that causes DE's to last only a month or two at most.
I'm thinking about doing that. In fact, the mod is already downloaded, just not activated :)

I'm all for increased difficulty, some of the tactical DE are just tedious (to hit penalties especially) when permanent and cumulative.

Wixard
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Wixard » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:43 am

Nagul wrote:
Rempsv wrote:And also timers were existent, that sweet sweet meld wasn't going to collect itself.
Please don't be obtuse. Did you rush forward recklessly to collect the Meld every time? Even when you knew you were outmatched, like raiding an early transport ship? Losing the Meld didn't mean losing the mission. You were encouraged to move quickly, but weren't forced to. It was up to you to decide what tactics were appropriate each time.

Hazelnut
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Hazelnut » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:58 am

My vet game is now in late November. Infiltrating A team for 2nd region liberation, during this 20day period doom ticker has gained 3-4 pips and is now full. Looks like my campaign is coming to an end. I should be sad but am not to be honest, I'm no longer enjoying the missions. Don't feel like a challenge anymore, just slugfests with savescumming required to avoid squad loss unless it's my A team.

Had a mission to escort the resistance personnel to evac in the region I have A team infiltrating to liberate so pretty important. Sent the best squad I could make up with best eq I could afford (everyone in war/warden/shadow) and mix of mag & coil. Mainstay of squad is the GSGT gunner specced for overwatch since she got guardian from AWC, and in previous months has been a life saver on haven defenses etc.

Due to DEs this mission was a frustrating mess, reinforcements turn 1 & a 8 pod within 1 blue move of start. by turn 3 I've dealt with them both but 3 more 8 pods have engaged and I'm stuck in the corner. Main features are lots of hits through full cover, to the point it feels like half cover dodgyness from LW1 - this is due to the high aim of advent. Overwatch spec gunner misses all but 2 overwatch/supression shots on the whole mission with 81 aim & adv hair trigger & all OW perks - due to advent extra dodge etc. And leaving enemies on 1-3 hp at end of turn so often is really annoying when it's the extra hp from DEs all stacked up.

Early & mid game LW2 is fantastic but lategame is boring and for me has become a reload grindfest. (either that or start again) I was looking forward to being able to handle moderate, heavy and even swarming missions as I teched up and got to the higher ranks. Nope. Maybe I teched too slow, but I thought I was doing it fast actually. Still have to get plasma, but don't have enough alloys/elerium after making lots of armour.

Mostrengo
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Mostrengo » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:19 pm

I have to agree that DE´s need some kind of balance check (maybe something in the middle from 1.0 to 1.1 spike increase). I have found vet dificulty to be the right spot for the challenge until the DE´s start to acumulate then it quickly starts to become unbearable and not fun. It turns into enemy spamming units which is just tedious...

At this point i am considering the rookie dificult not because i want to but to be able to manage the peak increase from the DE´s.

nightwyrm
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by nightwyrm » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:29 pm

I just had my third +hp DE go thru without any means of stopping it. With the +armor DE also active, a normal Advent Captain now has 18hp and armor and can tank multiple explosives and shots. I'm only playing on Vet and this is ridiculous.

Nagul
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Nagul » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:40 pm

Wixard wrote:Please don't be obtuse. Did you rush forward recklessly to collect the Meld every time? Even when you knew you were outmatched, like raiding an early transport ship? Losing the Meld didn't mean losing the mission. You were encouraged to move quickly, but weren't forced to. It was up to you to decide what tactics were appropriate each time.
I can return your "please don't be obtuse". Obviously I'm not advocating for having timers everywhere, I was just stating the fact that "timers" did exist in LW1, even though I concede they were softer. However just as you didn't rush to collect meld in transport ship, you don't have any timers on most harder LW2 missions where you are outmatched such as HQ assault. Timers merely prevent you using the same tactic everywhere anytime. Without timer, what use for classes like assault or shinobi which focus on "kill faster at greater risks" ?

Wixard
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Wixard » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:48 am

Nagul wrote:Without timer, what use for classes like assault or shinobi which focus on "kill faster at greater risks" ?
I like to use shinobi as scouts so that I always know what I'm walking into, even after being revealed. Same way I used rangers in vanilla. Of course I switch them to attack mode depending on the situation or towards the end of the mission/when I encounter a large pod. As for assaults, I generally use them as cleanup.

But the timers do encourage using them over classes like snipers.

Fanguru
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Fanguru » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:20 pm

I do not mind the tactical dark events I have encountered so far. Tac sense is annoying but quite rare.
My problem is with vigilance and rapid response.

Vigilance rant: the % applied to detection radii was fine in vanilla, but feels out of balance in LW2. I had a supply raid where moving one guy with a rifle 2 tiles to his left, to a cover, at the start of the very first turn would bring him in line of sight of an advent guardian and break concealment. That advent guardian detection area was not visible by any of the 10 soldiers. Either that pod was too close to the spawn or detection range was too wide.

Rapid response rant: the only option is to sneak up to the objective, else you start a chain of events that results in failure. Fortunately we have the tools to sneak up. It is not fun to be forced playing one way but it is manageable.

Rapid response + vigilance combo rant: the difficulty spike is insane. I went from having my fun times learning LW2 mechanics to fighting a dark souls 3 boss with 2 broken arms and a toothpick between my teeth.
Doable? I suppose.
Fun, enjoyable? No.
I love playing a difficult game, but these make the game tedious. Calculating possible lines of sight and counting squares in an empty map for 10 mn at the start of each mission sucks, yet these 2 events together make it mandatory because reinforcements will be completely overwhelming after concealment is broken.

Vanilla L/I campaigns with rulers used to be a breeze after a good gatecrasher. LW2 V/I with vigilance + rapid response active is an annoying, tedious, unrewarding and unbalanced chore.

Wuschel
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Wuschel » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:38 am

I don´t know if this is a bug or intended, but at the moment i feel like cheated by the game.

Supply Drop of June 14 2035
Savegame one day before the supply drop: 0 Dark events
Than the second after the supply drop -> 3 Dark events (one of them hidden), The hidden one i get a mission to counter the other 2 just happens after some time

I tried several times to reload the save one day before the supply drop i get always the combination with 2 revealed tactical events that succeed after some time and one random event i find a counter mission for.

-------
Now i tried following, took an older save 2 ingame weeks before and just let it run until the supply drop.
Now following happened: 0 Dark events started.

The difference between to saves (what i have done in the 2 ingame weeks:
1 Finishing one counter dark event mission (Major breakthrough).
1 ufo raid mission
1 new region contact
Clearing out the last 3 avenger rooms from debris.
1 Liberation mission, so that the tv
Several normal missions
-----
Now i got suspicious.
I tried several combinations of not doing something in the hope of finding what triggers this 3 DE with 2 of them not possible to counter spawn.
It seems, that as long as the old "Major Breakthrough-DE" was in place no new dark events spawned with the supply drop.
Shortly after the mission timer runs out again the 3 Dark event with 2 of them without missions spawned.
?Theory: The game has a timer after x DE-Events, throw 2 not possible to counter T-DE´s at the player?
-------
Why i am writing all of this:
- Clearly i have no understanding how DE spawn or trigger. So i really want tho know the spawn triggers behind them
Could some one please update the wiki regarding this topic. If we understand the rules, limits and possibilities we would probably feels less unhappy about this mechanic. My current situation feels like cheated by the game to me,
- It seems that the game decided at some point [date/progress/Trigger(?)] to force Tactical Dark events without a possibility to stop to happen (Every time revealed DE´s spawn in the Dark events overview)

It thought we should always have a chance to stop the events from happening?
I am now in game were i don´t invest in weapon or armor but in Radio Relays and as much as possible region expansion, so that i have better chances to get all DE. -> Be weak, but keep the enemy also weak. Now the enemy get´s forced Tactical-DE upgrades. I now feel unhappy because my strategy was based on false assumptions (Wiki/Forum information ["DE could always be stopped"]).

[In case this is all unintended and a bug, savegames could be provided.]

wei270
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by wei270 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:56 am

well back in the days of long war 2 early development the Tactical DE were set to always spawn in your contracted region. but the problem is that with this information player can adjust the strategy to limit expansion and maximize intel gathering in limited contracted region to maximized the chance of Tactical DE detection. Which happen to be the solo Nash equilibrium where it is superior to all other possible strategy for the game. Now imagine if we are playing that game wouldn't it be quite boring where we are just doing pretty much one thing every time lol

sectoidfodder
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by sectoidfodder » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:13 pm

Maybe this is a Legend difficulty problem, but having finished a C/I campaign I think the current implementation of DEs is pretty reasonable.

Tactical DEs are just supplementary alien progression. The 2-3 different tiers of each enemy type don't allow extra perks or granularity in stat upgrades, which are what tactical DEs provide. If you compare the system to LW1's alien research progression rather than think of them as DEs, it actually seems lenient - now you actually have a chance to keep aliens from getting some of those nasty perks. The conditioning upgrades are good examples: why is it so terrible that aliens get +1 hp every few months when we all accept that every enemy type can have tiers of much more potent all-around stat upgrades, which we actually have zero chance to prevent?

Strategic DEs feel a bit more problematic and RNG-heavy. Infestation or Rapid Response at a bad time can cripple a campaign while some of the other ones are relatively benign (like Air Patrols), so they're only really balanced by the fact that they can all be reliably countered (only spawn in contacted regions). This can probably be improved just by tweaking the numbers though, without having to overhaul the DE system.

BlackWing88
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by BlackWing88 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:24 am

mayby a suggestion can be once they are out the perma dark events you could pay mayby 100 intel to trigger a mission to counter the dark event and remove it from being active even the perma ones but maybe it could be like they use the remaining supplies for the tactical upgrade/dark event etc and it will say enemy can no longer have the technology/supplies to maintain this (name of tactical upgrade/dark event here) they will run out in 1 or 2 mouths and will no longer have the ability to maintain it all and over the course of the 2 mouths it has left the updrage gets weaker or less common (or both) due to dwindling supplies for it and after the 2 mouths after you sabotaged it after it gets weaker/less common it disappears completely i want to be able to counter it and removes it that is what is a massive issue not the fact it's permanent i dont mind if it's perma i do mind however if i cant counter it i want to be able to counter these events even after they are active you can counter pending but not active i want to be able to counter active perma dark events too

Ithuriel
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Ithuriel » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:11 am

A bit of a necro here, but is there any point to revealing Dark Events? They'll almost never force you to make significant playstyle changes, and I think revealing makes no difference for whether or not you discover the mission to counter that Dark Event. If they're mostly inevitable anyway, why would I bother spending 5 intel?

nightwyrm
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by nightwyrm » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:46 am

Ithuriel wrote:A bit of a necro here, but is there any point to revealing Dark Events? They'll almost never force you to make significant playstyle changes, and I think revealing makes no difference for whether or not you discover the mission to counter that Dark Event. If they're mostly inevitable anyway, why would I bother spending 5 intel?
I guess if you've got tons of Intel and low on manpower and a counter DE mission pops up with low duration and you want to find out if you can safely skip it.....

Actually happened to me once and the DE was the "make rookies more expensive" one. :roll:

Goldenmonkey
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Goldenmonkey » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:11 pm

I actually wouldn't mind DEs, if I have a chance to counter them, or reverse them. I am already rushing to resistance comms, because I figure, the more regions I have, the higher the detection/counter chance.

Maybe the DEs could only start maximum of x regions away from your starting haven for the first x days. This distance would increase over time.
That would give you a chance for a strategic decission, rapidly expand and try to counter them, or focus on a smaller number of regions and put your ressources into better gear (for example), but run the risk of having to face them.

This would get rid of the feeling, that the game f*cks with you and there is nothing you can do

seananigans
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by seananigans » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:24 pm

Goldenmonkey wrote:I actually wouldn't mind DEs, if I have a chance to counter them, or reverse them. I am already rushing to resistance comms, because I figure, the more regions I have, the higher the detection/counter chance.

Maybe the DEs could only start maximum of x regions away from your starting haven for the first x days. This distance would increase over time.
That would give you a chance for a strategic decission, rapidly expand and try to counter them, or focus on a smaller number of regions and put your ressources into better gear (for example), but run the risk of having to face them.

This would get rid of the feeling, that the game f*cks with you and there is nothing you can do
As far as I know, they already can only be a max of 1 region away from your "owned" area. But this doesn't help too terribly much, as until very late game, the number of adjacent areas that you don't own is many. Personally I'd like a DE re-vamp as much as the next person, but more in the way of countering already-active DE's (the perm ones). Then as Pavonis sees fit, somehow rework the ones they want to be part of the Alien Science perma upgrade ala LW1, so you're not left thinking "dammit I hate never finding that +1 hp dark event, I want to counter it!!" Like simply re-naming them in some way and taking them out of the DE pool would probably be enough. Just "Alien Advancements" or something, but I'm sure that'd require a good amount of UI work, so it probably won't happen.

I would very much like to see a return of LW1's enemy inspection system though. That was a nice and fun side-reward to autopsies (in addition to VPT boni).

Goldenmonkey
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Re: New and Improved Dark Events Thread

Post by Goldenmonkey » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:42 pm

seananigans wrote:
As far as I know, they already can only be a max of 1 region away from your "owned" area. But this doesn't help too terribly much, as until very late game, the number of adjacent areas that you don't own is many.
(...)
I would very much like to see a return of LW1's enemy inspection system though. That was a nice and fun side-reward to autopsies (in addition to VPT boni).
Agree, that in fact doesn't help at all. What I mean is, that they should not be more than x regions away from your starting region. That would help, if you expand fast enough. DEs can have a big impact on the difficulty, I am trying to think of a way to incorporate this into the possible strategies. Less RNG, more, "well, if I would have done this instead of that, I would have caught this DE"

Some sort of extended autopsy and a resulting mission to countera DE, would also be cool.

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