Stealth makes "Destroy the Device" and Blacksite too easy + balance suggestion

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

Hey everyone. As many others I appreciate the fact that stealth is a viable way to solve many missions. It provides additional variety in the way missions play out. Ideally a stealthy playstyle should come with some disadvantages or else the player would be encouraged to only run stealth missions (which in my opinion isnt good for a atactical combat oriented game). As it is the biggest disadvantages to stealth are:

• No loot from enemies, less xp due to less soldiers usually
• Inconsistent since reliant on enemy movement and map layout (may lead to unnecessary losses due to undergeared soldiers)

In general this is enough to encourage the player to not do stealth missions entirely (at least in the early game, where you need lots of xp and loots and raids/columns are rare). However I find stealth makes some types of missions so easy, that they are almost a garantueed win on commander (and probably even on legendary).

Destroy the Device:
These missions can be reliably done with two sharpshooters and a shinobi. Usually it is possible to position the sharpshooters in a corner of the map where they can see the device via squadsight through a window. Given the right spot, alien patrols will never come near them. To be fair, this method relies on using the information given by the "flank preview" mod (since there are usually only a few tiles where you actually have clear line of sight). However I dont consider this mod cheesy (opposed to mods that show which enemy has loot for example), since it only provides information to reduce guesswork on the players side.

Possible solution:
- There are usually pods on Defense duty around the device. These pods could become active as soon as they notice their precious being attacked. This would make the sharpshooter approach very risky (probably need 3 to be fast enough, need to throw out evac in advance to get away quickly, small maps would likely be impossible without enemy contact).
- To clarify: I want the ai to actively track down the shooters (not just become active and run around confused)

Blacksite:
I fondly remember the times in vanilla, when the blacksite mission was usually the first drawn out slogfest, where I had to carry my stabilized troops to the evac point and make it out barely alive. Not so in LW2. The map is large, sneaking right on top of the vial is very much the most realiable approach. Wiping the pod defending the vial (stun or suppress sectopod if one is there) and leaving the map within two turns is a very clean and very easy way to solve this mission. In my case this was made even easier: The klutzy sectopod walked a whole in the build creating a backentrance that lead directly to the evac spot.

Possible solutions:
- Taking the vial should cost an action similar to hacking an objective (this makes it more risky to just take that thing and run away)
- Place the evac point farther away
- Evac has to be called, no preplaced evac point. Evac takes at least something like 3 turns even on 200%. All pods active as soon as the vial is stolen
- no concealment in this mission (this would be the nuclear approach, stealth would only be possible with a dedicated phantom squad)


A final general idea concerning stealth:
Would it be possible to to give the enemies ways to deal with stealth (specifically with the conceal skill)? Something like the enemy throws battle scanners in a random area around the last known position of a soldier that used conceal. This would probably a bit more difficult to do, since it has to be conditional (soldier used conceal and we - the aliens - saw it) and it has to appear "naturally" and not like the AI cheats by throwing the scanner exactly there were the soldier is.

[Merkle]

As soon as you shoot the deivice the pods should go on alert. You can see this if they start running around instead of just walking.

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

As soon as you shoot the deivice the pods should go on alert. You can see this if they start running around instead of just walking.

But they dont track down the shooters, they are just acting confused.

[Merkle]

I see this as a good thing. They shouldn't really "know" where you are at, now a case could be made that they could see the shots and locate you in that manner.

I do agree do somewhat that Stealth has been my go too move to make higher difficulties easier.

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

I see this as a good thing. They shouldn't really "know" where you are at, now a case could be made that they could see the shots and locate you in that manner.

I do agree do somewhat that Stealth has been my go too move to make higher difficulties easier.

As you said following a bright laser trail is what they "should" do when we argue with "realism". Even when shooting with bullets you still can hear them and see on which side of the device the bullet marks are. Also: its not that i want to gut stealth, I just want to make it less optimal in specific cases.

[LordYanaek]

One of the things LW2 introduced that vanilla XCom2 was missing is viable stealth strategies so i sure don't want to see stealth reduced to "easy first pod" as it was (mostly) in vanilla XCom2. That being said, for those 2 particular missions, possibly something could be done to make Advent's reactions more realistic and stealth slightly more risky, without making it useless.

Blacksite : this is a secured facility, it certainly have some protections so after you take the vial all pods go on yellow and converge towards the facility no matter where they were. Big alarm sound with huge radius. Makes sense. At least you'll have to make sure no pods are nearby when you steal the vial which requires careful scouting. Of course an all shinobi squad could still try to phantom/conceal their way out of the patrols but all shinobi squads are risky in most situations. Maybe increase the detection range of aliens after you steal the vial as they go on high alert?

Destroy the device : maybe activate rather than "yellow" the pod guarding the device when you shot it (as if the the device was part of the pod). Yellow alert means even if the aliens spot you on their turn, you'll likely get only one shot. Full activation means your shinobi better be extremely careful. Also not every map works well for sniping the device, and this is not new to LW2, i used this a number of missions in vanilla XCom2, every destroy the relay mission i had a "scout" ranger and a sniper so if the map was good, i would destroy the relay safely then deal with the aliens, often abusing the sniper/ranger combo again as i had plenty of time.

For conceal, i just think you shouldn't be able to hide when an enemy is looking at you. It would solve some (somewhat) silly situations without requiring new abilities and AI and it would make sense too. Most games with stealth don't allow you to hide in front of the enemy. Note, i never tested this myself so maybe it already works this way but the "battle scanners" suggestions makes it look like you can actually hide in plain sight.

[Poobah]

I tend to consider myself a fairly average player and I think stealth is pretty fine as is - LW2 finally made stealth viable and I really wouldn't want anything done to take that away again. I've always found my stealth missions difficult, tense, and highly enjoyable. My only successful destroy the device missions so far have involved 200% infil 1-turn evac, and rangers + a shinobi officer and they have been an absolute blast, dodging patrols, finding the right spot, sweating like crazy because I'm gonna have to survive that one turn and if I screw up the activation I could be toast, etc.

I think it's pretty important that OP notes that you need a mod to find line of sight for your sniper - I hadn't even considered such tactics, but I also think I'm significantly below the level of many of the commenters in this thread; I certainly won't be moving away from veteran and into higher difficulties any time soon.

[Phantom]

destroy the device: maybe make the destroy device shots not 100% garantued. Why should that be garantued hits? devices and gas tanks should also suffer from weapon range as enemies do.

black site: for me vanilla black site was to easy also on legendary. Had it not in LW2, so i can not say anything about that.

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

Hey everyone. As many others I appreciate the fact that stealth is a viable way to solve many missions. It provides additional variety in the way missions play out. Ideally a stealthy playstyle should come with some disadvantages or else the player would be encouraged to only run stealth missions (which in my opinion isnt good for a atactical combat oriented game). As it is the biggest disadvantages to stealth are:

• No loot from enemies, less xp due to less soldiers usually
• Inconsistent since reliant on enemy movement and map layout (may lead to unnecessary losses due to undergeared soldiers)

In general this is enough to encourage the player to not do stealth missions entirely (at least in the early game, where you need lots of xp and loots and raids/columns are rare). However I find stealth makes some types of missions so easy, that they are almost a garantueed win on commander (and probably even on legendary).

Destroy the Device:
These missions can be reliably done with two sharpshooters and a shinobi. Usually it is possible to position the sharpshooters in a corner of the map where they can see the device via squadsight through a window. Given the right spot, alien patrols will never come near them. To be fair, this method relies on using the information given by the "flank preview" mod (since there are usually only a few tiles where you actually have clear line of sight). However I dont consider this mod cheesy (opposed to mods that show which enemy has loot for example), since it only provides information to reduce guesswork on the players side.

Possible solution:
- There are usually pods on Defense duty around the device. These pods could become active as soon as they notice their precious being attacked. This would make the sharpshooter approach very risky (probably need 3 to be fast enough, need to throw out evac in advance to get away quickly, small maps would likely be impossible without enemy contact).
- To clarify: I want the ai to actively track down the shooters (not just become active and run around confused)

Blacksite:
I fondly remember the times in vanilla, when the blacksite mission was usually the first drawn out slogfest, where I had to carry my stabilized troops to the evac point and make it out barely alive. Not so in LW2. The map is large, sneaking right on top of the vial is very much the most realiable approach. Wiping the pod defending the vial (stun or suppress sectopod if one is there) and leaving the map within two turns is a very clean and very easy way to solve this mission. In my case this was made even easier: The klutzy sectopod walked a hole in the build creating a backentrance that lead directly to the evac spot.

Possible solutions:
- Taking the vial should cost an action similar to hacking an objective (this makes it more risky to just take that thing and run away)
- Place the evac point farther away
- Evac has to be called, no preplaced evac point. Evac takes at least something like 3 turns even on 200%. All pods active as soon as the vial is stolen
- no concealment in this mission (this would be the nuclear approach, stealth would only be possible with a dedicated phantom squad)


A final general idea concerning stealth:
Would it be possible to to give the enemies ways to deal with stealth (specifically with the conceal skill)? Something like the enemy throws battle scanners in a random area around the last known position of a soldier that used conceal. This would probably a bit more difficult to do, since it has to be conditional (soldier used conceal and we - the aliens - saw it) and it has to appear "naturally" and not like the AI cheats by throwing the scanner exactly there were the soldier is.

[Zloth]

I haven't actually done this so a bit of an uninformed opinion here but...

When you use squad site to see an objective, is there also a rule in place that says the sniper has to be able to see the soldier providing the squad site? If not then maybe then maybe a rule like that would help with the 'destroy the device' scenario as you would need the hidden snipers, the hidden stealth, and somebody in between that could spot both.

[JackDT]

I agree generally that stealth is slightly too good on some of those maps. Or too reliable at least -- it should be possible to pull off a stealth win as you describe, but I shouldn't be able to count on missions going that way.

[LordYanaek]

I agree generally that stealth is slightly too good on some of those maps. Or too reliable at least -- it should be possible to pull off a stealth win as you describe, but I shouldn't be able to count on missions going that way.

Oh please don't ask the devs to put some random out-of stealth system just so that a stealth mission can fail for no good reason. I'm glad there is at least one way to win some missions without relaying on the RNG. Of course stealth is good if you use it right because it doesn't rely on random nonsense. It's not easy thought, you have to be careful and a single mistake can easily lead to a squadwipe if you deployed a stealth group with light equipment. In addition it does have an opportunity cost as you don't get any loot. I don't see where there is something wrong.

I'm not against making the Blacksite harder to infiltrate, it's a high security compound. I'm not against the pod guarding a relay being slightly more aggressive when you shoot at that relay, but i sure don't want stealth to become useless again. If you can't rely on stealth, it's useless because it's too risky to gamble at.

[anonynamja]

Destroy the Device:
These missions can be reliably done with two sharpshooters and a shinobi. Usually it is possible to position the sharpshooters in a corner of the map where they can see the device via squadsight through a window.

Uh. Maybe on an open settlement map with convenient geometry, but usually not so on a slums map without good sight lines from the evac zone.

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

Destroy the Device:
These missions can be reliably done with two sharpshooters and a shinobi. Usually it is possible to position the sharpshooters in a corner of the map where they can see the device via squadsight through a window.

Uh. Maybe on an open settlement map with convenient geometry, but usually not so on a slums map without good sight lines from the evac zone.

Yes on slum maps. Sometimes you can just shoot through windows, sometimes you have to take a 6 turn detour. Doesnt matter, shooting the thing usually takes 3 turns. So far i had no map that wasnt beatable with this strategy. They may exist, but the overwhelming majority is an easy win.

[JackDT]

I agree generally that stealth is slightly too good on some of those maps. Or too reliable at least -- it should be possible to pull off a stealth win as you describe, but I shouldn't be able to count on missions going that way.

Oh please don't ask the devs to put some random out-of stealth system just so that a stealth mission can fail for no good reason. I'm glad there is at least one way to win some missions without relaying on the RNG. Of course stealth is good if you use it right because it doesn't rely on random nonsense. It's not easy thought, you have to be careful and a single mistake can easily lead to a squadwipe if you deployed a stealth group with light equipment. In addition it does have an opportunity cost as you don't get any loot. I don't see where there is something wrong.

I'm not against making the Blacksite harder to infiltrate, it's a high security compound. I'm not against the pod guarding a relay being slightly more aggressive when you shoot at that relay, but i sure don't want stealth to become useless again. If you can't rely on stealth, it's useless because it's too risky to gamble at.

I was thinking of a tiny change to black sites -- the pod that is guarding the vial will often (but not always?) also have one of those advanced drones with the really insane concealment detection range, making it a little harder to get so close.

[3dahs]

How about the regular sniper rifle does minimal damage to relays unless you equip a new sniper rifle. This new sniper rifle has large aim penalties so using it against infantry wouldn't be optimal. As we all know shooting a relay is always 100% so the aim penalty would not be an issue here. Using this new rifle is almost as loud, if not as loud as a rocket drawing enemies to your position much quicker.

We could go a bit further here and maybe even have the negative aim rise to normal levels the larger the target. This new tank buster rifle has bonus aim the larger the target but severe aim penalties against small targets so that it is not intended to be used against small targets such as, but not limited to troopers, snakes, sectoids, codex, and maybe mutons, maybe not.

This sniper is somewhat like a tankbuster. Able to do great damage against large targets/structures, but the aim penalties are too severe to be used effectively against smaller targets. It also reveals your position much sooner due to the sound mechanics. It is also not able to equip a suppressor.

If this is too much to implement why not just add armor to the relay? This would reduce the effectiveness of regular weapons. Allow AP rounds to only be available on the new larger weapons such as the Battle Rifle, LMG, and a larger sniper rifle. All of these new larger weapons can work similar to how they worked in longwar +1-2 dmg, lower mobility, and negative aim/firing mechanics. They would also be much louder giving away your position sooner. While also increasing your infiltration times.

[LordYanaek]

Not sure why you are doing such an issue about "destroy the device". Unless you bring a sizeable team with like 3 snipers, you'll spend quite some time shooting at that relay and out of cover, enough time that you're not safe from wandering pods with your 2 guys (the shinobi being busy observing the relay). If in addition the squad guarding the relay activates rather than goes yellow, it would be enough that you need to act very fast for this technique to work. Active squads tend to move towards whoever shot at them, they don't always choose the right cover which is nice as it makes sniper ambushes viable, but they will come for you.

[aimlessgun]

Blacksite:
I fondly remember the times in vanilla, when the blacksite mission was usually the first drawn out slogfest, where I had to carry my stabilized troops to the evac point and make it out barely alive. Not so in LW2.

It seems like the LW2 blacksite was deliberately designed to be a stealth mission instead of a combat mission (since you have a 10 turn doom counter to 8 man reinforcement spam after breaking conceal). But yeah it could definitely be a little more challenging, forcing you to fight for a few turns.

[LordYanaek]

The big fights are now handled by other missions like Advent HQ assault.