Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Alketi
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Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Alketi » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:06 pm

This was a first month Jailbreak mission to get my first Engineer:

Veteran difficulty
Extremely Light / Normal readiness
Squad: (6) 2 soldiers / 4 rookies
Total Advent count: 25 troops / 13 reinforcements

My starting position was on a rooftop. In my SECOND character move, a BLUE one, I was spotted by a hidden drone. Cover immediately blown on turn #1. Fine. It sucks, but it happens.

The jail and evac zone were on a building, as far as possible, on the edge of the map (as always) from the starting location.

End result, the reinforcement timers apparently trigger based on when you're first revealed(?) and reinforcements never stop arriving, regardless of readiness/difficulty/Advent bonuses/or anything that might make sense.

In the end, the final count was 25 Advent -- which equates to 13 reinforcements. Reinforcements were arriving every two turns. Game OVER.

This is both borderline impossible and certainly not enjoyable, and it shows that any mission can be finished after the first move based on stupid RNG and an endless reinforcement spam. The "randomness" of combat might be indicative of real life/real war, but that's the reason people watch movies and play video games -- having randomness guarantee failure based on a reinforcement mechanic has removed all the fun for me.

I plowed through vanilla XCOM2 in both Commander and Legendary, but have been annihilated by reinforcement spam (in one form or another) in every one of my brief runs of LW2. I guess I'm either extremely unlucky or, in reality, not good enough to play LW2 even on Veteran. Either way, the unforgiving reinforcement spam has ended what's probably my last campaign.

Apologies for the negative feedback, but damn.

Image

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xwynns
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by xwynns » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:23 pm

You complain the mission is borderline impossible and post a screenshot where you completed the mission with only a single death and you brought a 66% rookie squad and you made the biggest mistake one can make in these missions which is losing concealment to a drone on turn 2?
I wish I could pull off a result as good as that within those circumstances...

speedmaster
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by speedmaster » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:53 pm

I had the opposite experience. While I hated the timers (that's a vanilla thing and I had been playing with True Concealment for so long), knowing reinforcements would come down and crush me if I didn't play carefully and optimally increased the tension and satisfaction in mission success. Reinforcements also make a lot of sense, in my opinion, because ADVENT would be calling for backup as soon as they spot XCOM forces. I'm on my 17th campaign (probably going to lose, first time I revealed the avatar project and I'm getting hammered on the bar), and having stuck with my initial frustrations at getting destroyed, it got much, much better, as I expected. I hope you stick with it and the game improves for you, too. Long War never had a reputation for being easy, and with enough investment, it's not unfair either.

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Valaska
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Valaska » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:20 am

Reinforcements can be a bit tricky but its not ruining the game so much...

Image

Classic/Ironman. The real issue is Dark Events tbh, they're kinda nuts and if they were better counter-able or balanced to be competitive vs overwhelming then reinforcements would be much more of a manageable and more fun mechanic than frustrating. Even if they were just timed to repeat or be expunged through attacking the facility they are tied to.

It takes a HUGE amount of time and caution to finish these missions especially on ironman, slow crawl etc, which is a huge issue of timers + Permanent DE's, you might be tactically sound, you might be where you appropriately need to be technology wise, you may be good enough period! But sometimes DE's come at you in such a nightmarish unholy hell fashion that each of those troopers is easily worth two times as much as they should have been lol. So a lot of LW2 is based on luck of which DE's hit when.

Reinforcements are simply a thing where you need to kill the most damaging targets ASAP, overwatch to get enough opening damage, then... Just, shinobi the rest usually.

Alketi
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Alketi » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:29 am

xwynns wrote:You complain the mission is borderline impossible and post a screenshot where you completed the mission with only a single death and you brought a 66% rookie squad and you made the biggest mistake one can make in these missions which is losing concealment to a drone on turn 2?
I wish I could pull off a result as good as that within those circumstances...
Thanks Xavier, but you're playing Legend and this was only Veteran! I've enjoyed your playthroughs, and actually blame you partially (all in good spirit), since all your stealthing around hid this punishing mechanic! You should have tried a 1-turn activate, 14-turn EVAC mission during your beta testing. ;) [Though I'm also confident you still would have probably done better than what I managed.]

The final casualty count was one soldier dead, one captured (who was carrying the dying soldier). With all the reinforcements and Sectoids "warping in", I couldn't physically reach the landing zone in time.

The endless reinforcement mechanic, on timed missions, on Veteran difficulty, just feels grossly unfair.

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xwynns
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by xwynns » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:57 am

Yeah you did really good imo.
I think it was ep#11 where I had this happen (drone activation on turn 2) and I mentioned that my priority had switched at that point from the objective to getting to the evac ASAP, and your example here is exactly why.

You can either take extra care not to trip up drones in the future, or when you do trip drones take extra care to blitz the evac (and maybe bring items to control enemies because you won't have time to fight them all if this happens). Ghostwalker Shinobi makes this a trillion times easier and smgs help a ton as well.

Tripping drones happened to me a lot in testing and that's how I developed the movement patterns I have with my soldiers where I go into the open and away from shadows while carrying smgs so there are no surprises (or at least fewer).

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Valaska
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Valaska » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:01 am

I am going to suggest a mod too for you;

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =847481752

Really nifty mod.

Garthor
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Garthor » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:06 am

True Concealment is basically cheating, in my opinion. You might as well disable timers entirely.

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Valaska
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Valaska » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:26 am

Garthor wrote:True Concealment is basically cheating, in my opinion. You might as well disable timers entirely.
And a timer forcing you to rush forward in missions in a game about strategy and tactics is defeating the purpose :>

Garthor
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Garthor » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:28 am

Valaska wrote:
Garthor wrote:True Concealment is basically cheating, in my opinion. You might as well disable timers entirely.
And a timer forcing you to rush forward in missions in a game about strategy and tactics is defeating the purpose :>
And a game with RPG elements where your pieces can DIE is defeating the purpose. Might as well disable death!

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Valaska
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Valaska » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:45 am

Garthor wrote:
Valaska wrote:
Garthor wrote:True Concealment is basically cheating, in my opinion. You might as well disable timers entirely.
And a timer forcing you to rush forward in missions in a game about strategy and tactics is defeating the purpose :>
And a game with RPG elements where your pieces can DIE is defeating the purpose. Might as well disable death!
There's several dozen RPG's that have permanent death. Final Fantasy Tactics, Shining Force, Fire Emblem, Shin Megami Tensei, Massive Chalice, State of Decay, several others that are escaping my mind atm. None of which have timers :>

Randal Miser
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Randal Miser » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:46 am

Image

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Alketi
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Alketi » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:16 am

xwynns wrote:Yeah you did really good imo.
I think it was ep#11 where I had this happen (drone activation on turn 2) and I mentioned that my priority had switched at that point from the objective to getting to the evac ASAP, and your example here is exactly why.
Thanks, I just watched your video #11. Yes, very similar circumstances, though I spawned on the roof and activated on the first turn -- and also, unlike you, I didn't know that reinforcements were endless. :)

Can you please explain the reinforcement mechanic?

Do they arrive 6 turns after activation? Then 4 after that? Then 2?

From memory, I think that's what I saw — starting at 14 turns I got reinforcements at turns 8/4/2.

Also, doesn't this imply that, given the choice, you want to avoid engaging in the first or second turn unless you're going to high-tail to the objective?
Last edited by Alketi on Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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8wayz
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by 8wayz » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:35 am

Reinforcements only start coming once you exit concealment for whatever reason. As such it is vital that you do not break until you have reached the objective or have set up a nice, defensive position.

If you break it by hard luck, you should always revise your mission priorities. There is no need to brute force your way to the objective if you think you won't have the time or soldiers to do it. Having 4 rookies, you should have valued more their lives and just ran for the extraction point.

You still have the notion from original XCOM 2 that even if you screw up badly, the game will be forgiving and let you steamroll it. Not in Long War 2 though - the Aliens will take advantage of your weakness and hurt you badly.

Losing one and having one captured is an acceptable price to pay for a completed mission. You should be able to find and free that soldier later on.

Please note that with reinforcements there is also a so-called "doom counter" - after a good amount of turns once they have been activated, above 20 at least, reinforcements start showing up every single turn in 8-unit pod. This is a soft limit to non-timed missions, probably due to Beaglerush.
Last edited by 8wayz on Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wisconsen
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Wisconsen » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:54 am

I actually really love the reinforcement system for a completely different reason. I've been playing the xcom series since it's original release and I HATE the turn counter. I've used true concealment since it's release and mods/ini edits to extend the turn time for this reason. I want to take a methodical and tactical approach, i don't want to be rushed by timers, but at the same time i understand the need for them, and respect the fact that others enjoy that gameplay style.

So i put in true concealment, added about 10 turns to my difficulty of choice (veteran for my first LW play through) via ini edits. What i've discovered is that i actually like the rushed feeling that the constant reinforcements bring, because it emphasizes the need to rush (once concealment is broken because i am still using True Concealment) but it doesn't do it through a arbitrary countdown timer (though on some missions i can see that being good also, a defuse the bomb style scenario for example) but because the longer i take my methodical and tactical time, the more wounds and deaths my troops are racking up, the longer recovery times and more recruits i need to train up to replace them.

It's just more fun because instead of that timer count down, it's based on how well i deal with an alien response to my actions. Now i know you can say that the timer represents air cover making extraction impossible and so forth, but that is also something completely out of my control. With the every increasing reinforcements i can make the call if it is worth pressing on or bugging out based on how well i can deal with those specific mechanics on the tactical layer, and i really really like it.

But hey, that is what makes it fun for me and won't be the same for everyone. But maybe someone else frustrated with the turn timer will see how i made it fun for me, and it might make it fun for them also. =)

aedn
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by aedn » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:32 am

Alketi wrote:This was a first month Jailbreak mission to get my first Engineer:

This is both borderline impossible and certainly not enjoyable, and it shows that any mission can be finished after the first move based on stupid RNG and an endless reinforcement spam. The "randomness" of combat might be indicative of real life/real war, but that's the reason people watch movies and play video games -- having randomness guarantee failure based on a reinforcement mechanic has removed all the fun for me.

I plowed through vanilla XCOM2 in both Commander and Legendary, but have been annihilated by reinforcement spam (in one form or another) in every one of my brief runs of LW2. I guess I'm either extremely unlucky or, in reality, not good enough to play LW2 even on Veteran. Either way, the unforgiving reinforcement spam has ended what's probably my last campaign.

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Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare in which a small group of combatants such as paramilitary personnel, armed civilians, or irregulars use military tactics including ambushes, sabotage, raids, petty warfare, hit-and-run tactics, and mobility to fight a larger and less-mobile traditional military.

reinforcements fits into the overall design of LW2 perfectly, and reinforces the mentality that you need to play the map, not just look for pods. It sucks when you blow a mission, especially when it costs you soldiers. Loosing rookies is meh, but losing TSGT & GSGT really sucks.

going forward, think about how you move, consider using the cntl+ right click to route pathing avoiding areas you cant see, and avoiding civs by a good margin. Once faceless start coming out they have hidden ranges which are not reflected on the map.

as noted by others, dark events are the real BS mechanic imo. Being unable to counter them due to non existent detection on the strategy layer is far more problematic.

Balor
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Balor » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:51 pm

I have one of these missions also 5 turns of reinforcements on a light/extremely light with pods of 5 mobs.

Is this as designed or a bug?

I assumed it was a bug and exploited the mission to complete it or it would have most likely been a full wipe.

If this is not a bug is the idea here for this mission you do not complete it and just try to evac out?

Hidoi
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Hidoi » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:31 pm

Can't you just change or completely the long war reinforcements and make it work like in vanilla?

Jeckhyl
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Jeckhyl » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:06 pm

Randal Miser wrote:Image

Image
Completely off subject : do you use some graphical mod ? These screenshots are very nice, but seem to be a lot more colorful than wath I have in game.

Hidoi
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Hidoi » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:18 pm

Jeckhyl wrote:
Randal Miser wrote: Completely off subject : do you use some graphical mod ? These screenshots are very nice, but seem to be a lot more colorful than wath I have in game.
He's probably using the console command "fogdensity 0"

frees1a
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by frees1a » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:28 pm

Is this a screenshotfest? Here is mine

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warbrand2
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by warbrand2 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:43 pm

... HOW, just how. that screenshot is from a none reinforcment mission. (all kill all missions but towers do not gain reinforcements.)

What did you do go into the max protection level on a mission and get unlucky with the pods all being near each others.



ON TOPIC: I have found that the reinforcements can not come in while your squad is concealed (at least on easy and normal), so remaining out of combat for as long as possible is key. I have also found that after around 8 turns you start getting reinforcements if concealment was dropped on turn one. so watch when you drop and watch what you do.

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ChaoticTabris
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by ChaoticTabris » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:59 pm

I would say the reinforcements are fine. But if you get Rapid Response early own you might as well restart. I literaly got reinforcements every other turn with Rapid Response in a Destroy The Relay mission.

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Arcalane
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Arcalane » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:15 pm

For those who can make sense of it, a lot of the reinforcement variables are exposed in XComLW_Overhaul.ini starting on line 945 (or so). Search for [LW_Overhaul.XComGameState_LWReinforcements].

After a certain point, you are guaranteed to receive reinforcements every other turn (this point is significantly sooner if Rapid Response is active). Certain missions accumulate much faster (traps), others slower.

Judging by what people are reporting (w.r.t. 8-man reinforcements, which sound like the "cavalry" pods the variables reference) it sounds like the hardcore reinforcements are triggering a little too soon in some cases.

Balor
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Re: Reinforcement spam has completely ruined LW2 for me

Post by Balor » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:51 pm

Ya in mine it started in turn 2 or three and went for 5 turns in a row. The every other turn or even two turns in a row makes it interesting but spamming reinforcements seems more like a bug vs something that is fun to play against.

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