Rockets vs. Grenades

[Sines]

So, what do people think about Rocket based Technicals, as compared to demolitions based Grenadiers? While the two builds aren't identical (the Technical still has two untalented Flamethrower charges, for example), they're fairly comparable, and you can easily find yourself saying "I need someone to blow stuff up, do I want a Rocketeer or a Grenadier?"

Personally, I find Rockets to be a bit underwhelming. First off, you just don't get many. EXO suit adds ones, Concussion Rocket is more Utility than offensive, and Bunker Buster is a top tier talent. A Grenadier is sporting three grenades easily, and most likely four grenades once they hit Corporal. This isn't exaclty a fair comparison, though, as the Grenadier pays for these grenades in Utility slots, while a Technical can leave their slots open. But it does mean that any talent improving their Rockets applies to fewer munitions than a talent improving grenades.

Now, rockets do do more damage, destroy more cover, and hit more radius than grenades. However, I also find that in those 'oh shit' moments where I need to kill a lot of things quickly, enemies are usually not grouped up well enough that rockets will save me. A more decisively placed grenade can do a lot more good, with no chance of failure (and having your one big trick for the whole mission veer off course and just hit one enemy is obnoxious). Overall, Rockets just don't seem to be worth their relative scarcity.

But to be fair, many talents improving rockets also improve grenades. So a Rocketeer Technical can function as an off-Grenadier. This seems a bit more reasonable, and might be the defining point in making a Rocketeer work. Although, the fact that the first talent a Technical can take that boosts grenades is Biggest Booms, which is a coin flip for +2 damage (which can be annoying when you're not trying to kill the target) does apply the Rockets 'gambler effect' to their grenades as well.

Anyway, I'm still debating this one. Haven't really had the chance to try it out, because I like Flamethrower so much (Roust, Burnout, EXO Suit for never-ending smoke conealed burning!) and because my first attempt at a rocket centered Technical spent a lot of time in the hospital (in part due to a rocket failing to work as an oh-shit solution, and merely do one damage to a single target) and then in the morgue (not his fault at all).

[Valaska]

I just hate how low range Grenadiers have compared to technicals so I don't bring Grenadiers to be honest. They tend to have absurdly low mobility due to how many utility slots I pack them with.

[wobuffet]

Indeed, the superior range of Rockets is a very nice factor.

Curious to see how many players prefer Grenadiers for cover destruction and why! Obviously grenades give you more precise placement (than do Rockets), but cover destruction with grenades is near-impossible before Sapper and can still be very difficult even with it.

[nightwyrm]

To me, the biggest advantage grenades have over rockets is the noise rockets make. Even if I'm lucky enough for the rocket to hit where I want, I now have 2 other pods come dashing in the next turn. Ironically, the maps with more enemies where a rocket would be most useful is also where rockets are most dangerous.

[warbrand2]

I have found with LW2, I tend to use my grenadiers as flashbang spam bots. that and the specialty grenades are freaking epic with them.

LW2 really makes grenadiers more of a utility soldier then a pure blow the hell out of everything soldier.


I have found it works really well to equip them with two flashbangs and either a smoke or the cryo grenades. later if you go for the ordenance boost, one flashbang(in double slot), a standard exposive, and a smoke.

Serioulsy smoke saves freaking lives in this, in the base game it was useless as hell in long war two damn I need to use it more cause it can be the difference between a squad wipe and a flawless match.


EDIT:

ON rockets, I have found that making a high aim technical focus on them leads to less missing, and if you time your conseal exit right you can take out 2 or 3 pods in one attack. but if you don't have a high aim technical DO NOT make them rocket focus.

[wobuffet]

To me, the biggest advantage grenades have over rockets is the noise rockets make.

Slightly off-topic, but does the UI (or a manual somewhere) give information on noise levels generated by different activities/items?

[trihero]

Now, rockets do do more damage, destroy more cover, and hit more radius than grenades. However, I also find that in those 'oh shit' moments where I need to kill a lot of things quickly, enemies are usually not grouped up well enough that rockets will save me. A more decisively placed grenade can do a lot more good, with no chance of failure (and having your one big trick for the whole mission veer off course and just hit one enemy is obnoxious). Overall, Rockets just don't seem to be worth their relative scarcity.

While I tend to prefer grenades over rockets as you do, I don't find your reasoning here makes sense. How can a "decisively placed grenade" do more good than a rocket? I would say 100% the opposite, a decisively placed rocket can do way more than a grenade. Like you said, rockets do more damage, destroy cover, and hit more radius. I think your underlying point here is that rockets can miss, but forgetting about misses for a second, how could a grenade do more than a rocket? Grenades have to wait until a top tier talent to be able to bust cover.

Don't forget that grenades take a significant amount of research, corpses, and supplies to keep up to date (heebie jeebies at advanced explosives research cost which requires andromedon corpse and resources + whatever bombs you want to make thereafter), while rockets are more or less ok as they are and the MKII gauntlet is very reasonably priced and available early on.

And it's a little bit silly to only compare grenades with rockets anyhow, since the technical also has flamethrowers. You're comparing 100% of the grenadier's output (grenades) with maybe 50-70% of the technical's (rocket). Technicals also have potentially good defenses (fortify for instance doesn't have a big opportunity cost) while the grenadier is a glass cannon.

[UraniumOverdose]

I spec nearly every grenadier as a support grenadier.

Sting grenades are ridiculously op, especially if you take bluescreen bomb

In a pinch you can use the free support grenade ability to launch smoke on your team, and then flashbang the enemies to pretty much guarantee your team is invincible that round.

I do have one damage grenadier that uses all the special damage grenades (gas, fire, plasma, etc.) though. I still feel that support grenadiers are a must for pretty much every squad.

After the first two or three months, any technicals I have to go haven advisor. They just aren't that good later on.

[FreedomFighterEx]

With the amount of how big each pod become lately, support Grenadier become more valuable than offense one due to how large the radius of Flashbang become and since grenade no longer reliable to take cover down, it kinda better to impair their ability so you can assault them or making retreat to better position. Most of Advent/Alien units having severe ability on them too. And with how much health they got, grenade just can't kill them. Flashbang however, stop them from doing nasty stuff to you.

[Arcalane]

I just hate how low range Grenadiers have compared to technicals so I don't bring Grenadiers to be honest. They tend to have absurdly low mobility due to how many utility slots I pack them with.

SMGs. Why?

1. The mobility bonus (+3) offsets the standard set of utility slots (-3) perfectly.
2. Grenadiers don't need to be using their primary weapon too much, but when they do, it being short-ranged is not a big issue.
3. The reduced detection range allows Grenadiers to position themselves closer to enemy pods when setting up an ambush.

They're not just for Shinobi. I like to use them on Techs as well - gotta get close to use that Flamer, after all.

[nightwyrm]

To me, the biggest advantage grenades have over rockets is the noise rockets make.

Slightly off-topic, but does the UI (or a manual somewhere) give information on noise levels generated by different activities/items?

Here: http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Sounds_%28LW2%29

[Hidoi]

Kinda off topic. But does Heat warheads effect Technicals rockets?
I'm assuming it doesn't, but does anyone know?

[FreedomFighterEx]

SMGs. Why?

1. The mobility bonus (+3) offsets the standard set of utility slots (-3) perfectly.
2. Grenadiers don't need to be using their primary weapon too much, but when they do, it being short-ranged is not a big issue.
3. The reduced detection range allows Grenadiers to position themselves closer to enemy pods when setting up an ambush.

They're not just for Shinobi. I like to use them on Techs as well - gotta get close to use that Flamer, after all.

3 Utility slot with 1 Grenade slot so that is 4 if you fully equip them. Although anyone with high mob but low aim is candidate to be either grenadier or shinobi. I value shinobi must has average aim since they will reveal themselves to help out when shit hit the fan. AIs tend to freaking out when they get flanked and do odd thing.

[Arcalane]

3 Utility slot with 1 Grenade slot so that is 4 if you fully equip them.

I specifically said standard set.

[LordYanaek]

I like SMGs on grenadiers and techs too. Occasionally i give the bolt caster to a grenadier cause they don't fire often so the 1 ammo isn't such an issue but otherwise it's SMG always. Once you reach higher tech, the difference in damage is proportionally lower and the bonus to move is huge, not to mention faster infiltration. I ended up producing more laser stenguns than regular laser rifles

Otherwise, i tend to use explosive grenades as guaranteed hit finishers with needle grenades and use the rocket as an explosive opener out of concealment. My best rocket so far almost killed two pods and the hostile VIP with some help from a car (the other soldiers quickly finished the wounded survivors) after which i walked towards the evac.

That being said, for blowing things at long range i prefer grenades as rockets scatter more the farther away you shoot and when i try to reach something at maximum range, it always scatters. I don't have very high aim techs thought. The issue with grenades is that i can't destroy cover half reliably even with sapper so my cover destruction is mostly left to gunners. I guess i need combat engineer to be able to blow cover efficiently.

[dstar3k]

To me, the biggest advantage grenades have over rockets is the noise rockets make.

Slightly off-topic, but does the UI (or a manual somewhere) give information on noise levels generated by different activities/items?

Here: http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Sounds_%28LW2%29

One thing that's missing from that page is an idea of the size of the average map. For example, is 26 tiles half the map? 3/4? 1/5?

I don't actually have a feel for that, sadly. Anyone know?

[Pawnman]

tbh! I've found Sapper grenadiers to be extremely underwhelming. Sapper alone doesn't seem to be all that reliable at destroying cover early on! It's alright at destroying a decent amount of half cover environments! But most full cover remains even when I use 2 grenades on said cover! Which is the kind of cover you want to be busting through. I've tried some Grenadiers with sapper + combat engineer and it's then when they really shine at leveling the battlefield. But for me that comes far too late to be useful.

I do however find great success in the Support grenadier builds, Sting grenades are amazing life savers & the ability to use rapid deployment allows you to use 2 grenades in one turn, able to turn the tide in just about any fight! I find them a must in most of my squads now! I especially like my grenadiers who are able to roll the "Flashbanger" or "Smoker" AWC perks. The extra utility goes a long way.

[nightwyrm]

I find I'm taking a lot of support grenadiers on my "sneak and complete objective" missions where I am forced to take a small squad. There is almost always a pod or two guarding the objectives and trying to fight them with 4 dudes takes way too long, especially with possible reinforcements coming in. With Sting grenades, I can stun a bunch a them for a turn or two, just enough time to hack/kidnap VIP/destroy relay and then GTFO.

[Daergar]

I find myself running one of each class in my 8man teams, and an extra technical and Sparky/psi op when it's 10man balls to the wall time.

For the grenadier, pure damage, smg, incendiary in the grenade slot. 3-tile radius eventually, guaranteed burn is a must for me.

One emp-boosted flashbang that rarely gets used except when you can tag something juicy with it. One plasma grenade as well, with two more added during the mission by the Specialist's air-drop, for cover destruction and armor shredding.

If the mission is tough and we're short-handed, the plasma gets switched for a gas grenade. Long duration, constant damage, good for applying to a strong pod and then retreating into over-watch ambushes.

Used one smoke grenade ever in my entire campaign, and flash-bangs become moot when you can simply kill the aliens or apply damaging crowd control instead.

The technicals go either rocket or flamer, had great success with both. Bunker buster can win an entire city map with one click if lucky, same with Firestorm. My greatest combo ever was a bunker buster into eleven enemies on forest tiles, clearing absolutely everything, and then the firestorm technical got eleven notches on his flamer.

[aedn]

I prefer technicals honestly. Sapper is just not reliable at destroying the cover when its really important. Almost all my grenadiers are support grenadiers, who carry flashbangs, and later on incendiary, acid or gas grenades. I had 2 sapper grenadiers, ones dead, the other i rarely use.

with support grenadiers, i do not really mind large alien presence, and find that its really easy to take out objectives regardless of infiltration time, since you can disable enemies, while having your snipers shoot the relay at squadsight, and have other classes killing aliens as they stream in.

[redscare]

I prefer grenadiers to technicals. And offensive nades over support. Quantity over quality for me. Or, better said, enough quantity is a quality of its own XD

I blow everything up and mop up with the rest of the team. Except trees. The nemesis of the sapper grenadier! The mofos are made of steel XD

It may also be a difficulty thing. I play in veteran and you can usually alpha-strike almost everything. I guess than Commander+ support nades are more useful to avoid the inevitable return fire.

Techs are very good for covert jail/hack ops, though. I follow some poster advice for those. 3-man team: Shinobi, specialist and technical. You don't break concealment till the very last moment. The technical is great for that pod camping the objective/evac zone that you cannot avoid.

[laestic]

I find them both useful.

Technical rockets AoE for breaking concealment or damage-heavy AoE, and damage grenades for shredding or full cover finisher. Actually protectors (support grenadiers) are very useful (too much ?) with Sting + Bluescreen grenades, esp. if they get Flashbanger or Smoker AWC perk. They just need mobility so it's SMG for them.

Damage grenadiers with incendiary and acid are great to neutralize a hard target, almost guaranteed to have it shred to pieces and not aggresive for 1-2 turns.

It really depends on squad size and balance : for average sized squad (5-6) I pick a support Grenadier with a Technical and a Airdrop Specialist. At 7+, for HQ or Supply Trains there'd be a dedicated damage Grenadier, quantity and accuracy matter.

[wobuffet]

To me, the biggest advantage grenades have over rockets is the noise rockets make.

Slightly off-topic, but does the UI (or a manual somewhere) give information on noise levels generated by different activities/items?

Here: http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Sounds_%28LW2%29

Awesome, thanks for the link!

Does anyone know if rockets make noise at the launch site or explosion site?

[LordYanaek]

From observation of enemy movements with a concealed shinobi, i think they move towards the explosion site, which seems logical, rather than the launch site. I have no real proof though, it just looked like this on a few occasions so take it for what it's worth until we have a more definitive answer.

[Manifest]

Slightly off-topic, but does the UI (or a manual somewhere) give information on noise levels generated by different activities/items?

Here: http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Sounds_%28LW2%29

Awesome, thanks for the link!

Does anyone know if rockets make noise at the launch site or explosion site?

All explosives make noise from the target site, but the enemy likes to run towards the shooter.