Psi Ops still suck?

RapidFire
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by RapidFire »

Sir_Dr_D wrote:An easy way to fix psi-ops is to just give them no infiltration time on a mission. The first psi soldier can be added for free, and maybe even reduce things overall. They are mind readers after all , which would be a great advantage for infiltration.
Someone else said something to this effect also (apologies for not taking the time to rescan the posts), but this is an awesome idea. Maybe not zero, but say, 10 or 25% since they still have to carry a weapon and armor that has to be hidden. In line with my vanilla inclinations, I haven't gotten to psi-ops yet (I only used psi-ops in late game), but this would make me more excited to use it in LW2, even if it was a sub-par class with only occasionally useful abilities. That said, I would be still be disappointed if the design is as bad as some people are saying, but this would be great either way.
Elfich
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Elfich »

RapidFire wrote:
Sir_Dr_D wrote:An easy way to fix psi-ops is to just give them no infiltration time on a mission. The first psi soldier can be added for free, and maybe even reduce things overall. They are mind readers after all , which would be a great advantage for infiltration.
Someone else said something to this effect also (apologies for not taking the time to rescan the posts), but this is an awesome idea. Maybe not zero, but say, 10 or 25% since they still have to carry a weapon and armor that has to be hidden. In line with my vanilla inclinations, I haven't gotten to psi-ops yet (I only used psi-ops in late game), but this would make me more excited to use it in LW2, even if it was a sub-par class with only occasionally useful abilities. That said, I would be still be disappointed if the design is as bad as some people are saying, but this would be great either way.
If you don't set it up and get it running relatively early in the game you won't have enough time to develop "usable" PsiOps - given that they need training time and mission time between training cycles.
JulianSkies
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by JulianSkies »

It probably would help of psi ops weren't level throttled and you had some indication of how many levels they actually got and just need tank time.
This way you can just decide when to stop interrupting training with missions and plop them in the tank for a while.
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

I really don't understand what the issue would be if they trained like in vanilla and could get all their skills. Infiltration ensures you can't have the psi ops on every mission, and you could balance the training times so that you can only have 2 maxed out psis by the time the game is about to end. Having all of their skills is not even overpowered considering how junky so many of them are (mind merge, soul fire heal, self sustain, wtf?) and how other classes have just much better aoe and/or single target. The other classes have gotten a lot stronger, dominating one unit makes little impact when you have to fight through 50-60 enemies, and the only possibly "op" skill might be bastion but it has a low radius making it hard to cover everyone in your team and at the end of the day there are lots of ways to make sure the enemy isn't firing explosives at you to begin with.

Skills like null lance/void rift are insanely crappy compared to other AoE skills (one tile width = what? 5-6 damage with best psi amp = what?). They recharge but then again so do things like street sweeper, sat fire, etc.
Saph7
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Saph7 »

For me the big problem with Psi Ops is the question of what they bring to the table.

From my experience so far with LW2, when you lose (or nearly lose) a mission it's pretty much always for the same reason: you get overwhelmed by too many enemies that you can't kill fast enough. So the big question for each class is "if the squad's being overwhelmed, what can you do to help?" And most of the classes have an answer. Gunners use their toolbox of skills, doing lots of damage and applying suppression. Grenadiers shoot grenades, doing lots of damage, removing cover, and (later) setting targets on fire. Snipers pick off single threatening enemies with high-damage attacks. Specialists can take control of an enemy drone or mech, which is a huge tempo swing if it works. And so on.

But what's a Psi Ops going to do when faced with two high-HP enemies? Soulfire? Doesn't do enough. Insanity? Usually only disables, and frequently fails to do even that. Stasis? Okay, that buys you one turn, but stalling only works if you have someone else doing damage. Mind Merge/Sustain/Soul Heal? Not gonna cut it. Their only real 'this is a big deal' skills are Void Rift (sometimes) and Domination, which take a ridiculous amount of time to train up. Most of the time, if you win a battle with a Psi Ops, you would have won it anyway, whereas if you're losing a battle, you'd probably rather have a non-Psi class instead.
cerebrawl
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by cerebrawl »

Saph7 wrote:But what's a Psi Ops going to do when faced with two high-HP enemies? Soulfire? Doesn't do enough. Insanity? Usually only disables, and frequently fails to do even that. Stasis? Okay, that buys you one turn, but stalling only works if you have someone else doing damage. Mind Merge/Sustain/Soul Heal? Not gonna cut it. Their only real 'this is a big deal' skills are Void Rift (sometimes) and Domination, which take a ridiculous amount of time to train up. Most of the time, if you win a battle with a Psi Ops, you would have won it anyway, whereas if you're losing a battle, you'd probably rather have a non-Psi class instead.
Yeah and the big swing trick for Psi Ops is domination and void rift giving mind control, though at least with schism void rift ruptures, which is a nice technique for softening the enemy up. Null lance is decent if unspectacular too.

Someone suggested a flashbang-like ability in another thread, which would definitely help. AoE disorient on a cooldown, and perhaps no LoS requirement?

The other classes got turned up to 11 in LW2, but the Psi Ops got hit with the nerfbat through extreme training times and no longer being able to learn all the abilities(4 short), and having more garbage in the ability pool.
Thrair
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Thrair »

I think Psi Ops definitely need a reduction in tank-time. But I think a bigger problem is their lack of a consistent iconic ability. Soulfire is pretty much the only active ability that they have they they are both guaranteed to get and has a reliable effect (insanity is inconsistent, not good for a core ability).

And that's just it... Soulfire isn't anything special. It's guaranteed damage that ignores armor. But that damage isn't especially high (It does less than a comparable tier of Assault Rifle) and can only be used on organic enemies. Sure, it always hits, but it doesn't really serve as anything other than a standard shot with a fancier animation. And that standard shot's not much to write home about given other weapon-based classes are FAR deadlier (with support abilities, damage boosts, or multi-shot actions). Hell, a Gunner generally does about as much damage on a GRAZE as a Psi Op does with Soulfire.

Psi Troopers need something distinct that's available to them at the start, has a consistent effect, and is relatively unique.

...I wonder if it's possible to give them the Codex rift ability. The one that forces a reload (not as useful as a flashbang, but still nifty and has the attached AoE damage after a turn).

Or if it's possible to put the "fire" in Soulfire and have it ignite the target (thus serving as both damage AND crowd control).

*EDIT* And wow. I just found out that Soulfire isn't even a set skill. I must have just gotten lucky on my Psi Ops. : /
Last edited by Thrair on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Goumindong
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Goumindong »

If you're training level appropriate skills then tank time shouldn't be much of an issue(you can bring them on missions when still training after all). The 1.2 fix to create more dependencies should help this
Manifest
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Manifest »

I haven't used them, so obviously I don't really know what I'm talking about, but why do Psions need XP AND training time? Are they overpowered otherwise? They already cost research, power, money and space (and more research unless you want them to train slower.)

What is the rationale behind their heavy cost when considering their power level?
No1currz
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by No1currz »

I wouldn't mind something along the lines of say, having promotable abilties on mission completion (when appropriate) that supplemented psi or soldier skills, and then use the tank to train new psi abilities

Maybe you'd have to exclude them from the AWC to balance it out, but at least you'd feel like you were making progress with them and they weren't falling too far behind the rest of the team. I think you would have to know what tank skills were available that soldier (random or otherwise) so that you could decide the path they would take when they promoted after a mission
Saph7
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Saph7 »

Manifest wrote:What is the rationale behind their heavy cost when considering their power level?
It's a holdover from vanilla where they really were quite powerful. But LW2 nerfed the Psi Ops in various ways.

Firstly, you have Infiltration time now, so soldiers availability is much more limited. This means that having to stick a soldier in a tank to level them hurts far more than it would in vanilla.

Second, you now have a cap on the amount of powers you can learn, meaning that you can't compensate for bad RNG power rolls with more training time.

Third the Psi power pool is much worse now. One of their best abilities (Inspire) was taken away and given to officers, and in its place they got Bastion (situational and very high level), Mind Merge (awful), and Soul Merge (awful).

So not only do Psi Ops get less total powers, but their power pool's been diluted so that the good abilities are less likely to come up. Worst of all, it's completely random which powers you'll be offered. A MSGT Sniper will always be offered Serial, a MSGT Specialist will always be offered Full Override and Restoration. But you can level a Psi up to max rank and have the RNG screw you and offer you trash picks for your top-level powers, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Manifest
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Manifest »

Saph7 wrote:
Manifest wrote:What is the rationale behind their heavy cost when considering their power level?
It's a holdover from vanilla where they really were quite powerful.
I wouldn't call it a holdover, the fact that they need xp is new isn't it? But, yeah it just seems like they are really not meant to be nerfed this much. In the next patch you're guaranteed a high level skill, but these other nerfs are still in place and they are not stronger than any other class while costing more.
gimrah
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by gimrah »

I think Insanity should disorient by default if it misses. Otherwise some unreliable chance to do maybe nothing at all is too weak.

Yes, you could make that a boost skill (like it is with arc thrower) but then the base skill is worthless. I don't think I would ever use it instead of shooting / throwing a grenade.
Saph7
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Saph7 »

gimrah wrote:I think Insanity should disorient by default if it misses. Otherwise some unreliable chance to do maybe nothing at all is too weak.
That was pretty much the solution I came up with. :)
Phrozehn
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Phrozehn »

I REALLY like the idea of having promotable skills overlapping the psi. I mean, my dream is LW1 style psi, and this would be similar to that as a bonus. One of the things I dislike about psi n xcom2 is that there's so little options. The just felt like "here, take all the things." Having prerequisites to determine some of the late game abilities is a good start, but I fr one cast my vote for having regular trainable
E abilities as well. It would make them a little more powerful, making up for the huge limitations placed on them by training time and infiltration. I also really liked a previous posters idea about psi focus building the longer you don't use powers.
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

What do you guys think of the 1.2 psi? I'm having a hard time finding motivation making a new campaign just to test this, as essentially 1.2 was hotfixes that don't change the way I play/enjoy the game.
Sir_Dr_D
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Sir_Dr_D »

trihero wrote:What do you guys think of the 1.2 psi? I'm having a hard time finding motivation making a new campaign just to test this, as essentially 1.2 was hotfixes that don't change the way I play/enjoy the game.
It doesn't look like they addressed balance at all with this patch. So the psi would be the same.

But you don't need feel ashamed to mod things to make the psi more playable. The devs went to a lot of trouble to ensure enough settings are changeable. it is a feature of the game. I myself will be changing the psi so they are free to take along on missions (if their is a setting that allows you to change the psi infiltration bonus.)
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johnnylump
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by johnnylump »

We reduced training times and I made sure the psi can attain top-tier ability if they line up the prerequisites, and the choices should generally be more in-line with the Psi Operative's skill level. As the patch notes say, I'm not claiming that's sufficient, but it would help if people gave them a go and let us know what they observe.
wadeanthony
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by wadeanthony »

trihero wrote:What do you guys think of the 1.2 psi? I'm having a hard time finding motivation making a new campaign just to test this, as essentially 1.2 was hotfixes that don't change the way I play/enjoy the game.
I started a new file to see if I can rush them early so I don't have one yet to try out but but this

- PsiAmp_MG costs reduced, requires Codex research and Codex corpse, provides +10 to psi offense instead of +15, updated all locs
- PsiAmp_BM costs reduced, requires Gatekeeper research / Gatekeeper corpse, provides +20 to psi offense instead of +30, updated all locs

Is very good change so far, the last requirement was too "end game" to even brother with.
please delete my account, I know long use it.
Saph7
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Saph7 »

johnnylump wrote:We reduced training times and I made sure the psi can attain top-tier ability if they line up the prerequisites, and the choices should generally be more in-line with the Psi Operative's skill level. As the patch notes say, I'm not claiming that's sufficient, but it would help if people gave them a go and let us know what they observe.
I had been planning to give them a try in my current campaign, but discovered something else: psi is really dependent on mission reward RNG, specifically, how many scientists you get. I happened to get a total of seven engineers and zero scientists, with the result that I haven't researched psionics by May and wouldn't have the scientist spare to put in the lab if I had.

I guess I'll give them a shot in the name of balance testing, but my hopes aren't high.
justdont
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by justdont »

Sir_Dr_D wrote:I myself will be changing the psi so they are free to take along on missions (if their is a setting that allows you to change the psi infiltration bonus.)
You can do so by adding modifiers to psi amps (as they're exclusive to PsiOps). I'm currently trying the following (in the InfiltrationSettings.ini, somewhere in the end of file):

Code: Select all

+EquipmentCovertness=(ItemName="PsiAmp_CV", CovertnessValue=0f, CovertnessWeight=0f, IndividualMultiplier=0.7f)
+EquipmentCovertness=(ItemName="PsiAmp_MG", CovertnessValue=0f, CovertnessWeight=0f, IndividualMultiplier=0.65f)
+EquipmentCovertness=(ItemName="PsiAmp_BM", CovertnessValue=0f, CovertnessWeight=0f, IndividualMultiplier=0.6f)
Full stealth shinobi gets ~0.7 multiplier from all his perks combined (but they have tactical advantage as well), so I tried to make PsiOps "infiltration-effective" for about as much. We'll see how it goes, for 1.1 I was extremely disappointed in PsiOps, for 1.2 I started anew.
gimrah
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by gimrah »

I was planning on going psi from July in a campaign where I got loads of scientists and had my psi lab scheduled to finish just as 1.2 dropped. And then my campaign died horribly on Lib 3...

More than scientists it's that second sectoid corpse that dictates earliest timing. Otherwise if you found some cores you could almost do it as your second building.
Maebalzurakin
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Maebalzurakin »

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... faster+psi

LW2 is a mod. It is OK to turn to other mods for help. Nobody will accuse you of cheating.

This above mod reduces the training times in LW2. It wont give you all of the abilities back, but it will make psi ops much more useful.
Bombadil
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Bombadil »

Quick feedback on the changes in 1.2, the reduced training times are definetly a step in the right direction. The issues reported before are still present, nevertheless: While my psi did okay for most of my campaign (vet), as soon as Mk3 enemies show up, there are enemies they can do nothing against. Are their psionic damage does completely neglectible damage against a ~15 hp Mk3 Commander or Sentinel. While fuse is kind of fine against any kind of muton or grenadiers (and their plasma/fire greandes), the grenades of other advent just don't have enough punch to hurt them. From what I expect, with the new prerequisites it will be certain that the get some of their high end abilities, however because the patch screwed around in my previous talent choices (swapped Stasis with Sustain of all ops I had >.<), I will have to test this later.

Another thing I noticed: Is it just me, or is the Mk2 amp still a little late for what it does? At the moment, I'm thinking that even +10 psi and +1-3 damage on several medium to long CD abilities won't help that much, and there are still no codices to be seen after the first one from the story mission. But maybe I'm just unlucky and others experienced sligthly better "scaling" than me.
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

Stuff that pisses me off which is (probably) not related to 1.2:

- you cannot issue psis commands during other character's turns, this is from vanilla but it's super annoying
- solace doesn't remove the disorient caused from drones, not sure if intended or not (I think it removes the disorient caused by sectoids). I was pretty sure solace is supposed to remove all mentally impairing effects like disorientation, and stun.
- solace apparently causes a lot of lag and pods to pull one at a time; evidence

joinrbs talks about this starting from 10:10 in the video if you listen long enough, he speculates it's caused by solace and someone else confirms it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tckACDIHCGU

here is a save file

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Ga8 ... 2p6Rks2SnM

Where I have 3 psis with solace. I cannot be sure that it's solace that's causing it, but I have a feeling it is. Reproducible steps: load the save file, then set everyone to overwatch and go to enemy's turn. You will notice a ridiculously long loading time for the enemy turn "alien activity." Also the enemy pods on the map do not advance (which is contrary to how recruit raids normally work) and when I activate them, they pull "one at a time" like the joinrbs video. The ridiculously long loading time for the alien turn persists despite this mission not having that many enemies on the map.

Balance issues from early use of psis:

So far I have 4 psis messing around by end of May. They feel like "cooldown clowns." They can do some mediocre things with stasis/soulfire early on, but then they're out of charges for the next 4 or more turns and twiddling their thumbs.

Having mind merge, soulfire heal show up as options to train to me feel absolutely like a slap in the face. They are essentially worthless, and I know that they are less than worthless because learning them will potentially take up slots for better abilities, since psis can no longer learn all abilities.
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