Psi Ops still suck?

gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by gimrah »

That is an odd way to do it. Certainly if you're going to have non-intuitive pre-requisites then you need to make it much more transparent. Or instead, you could change the way the initial rolls work:

Split into higher and lower tier powers. Higher powers only appear on the upper ranks with one exception below. That should in itself help ensure you are offered some reasonable training times.

Each soldier's deck gets allocated some subset of the higher tier powers, which they are then guaranteed to be offered at the higher ranks (and never mutually exclusively).

You remove the more artificial pre-requisites (although things like insanity and void rift would be fine with me).

Then you shuffle the lower tier powers in such as way that the remaining pre-requisites for higher tier powers are guaranteed to appear (again never on a mutually exclusive basis). So if you see mind merge you know you'll be offered soul merge later and you need to take mind if you want soul (yeah I know that's funny now but I'm assuming they will balance those).

And then separately, take some of the mid level powers that don't have pre-requisites (null lance, fuse) and give rookies a chance to get those on their first trip to the tank. And to balance then if they draw one of those then they only get 2 starting skills instead of 3.

And then buff all the powers, reduce all the training times and do something about infiltration times...
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

I think with vanilla psi-ops we lost a lot of the attachment one gets to soldiers because you just stuck a rookie in the tank and pulled out a fully formed top-rank psi-op some months later.
I am totally 100% ok with this. It's ok for the psi ops to work differently than the other classes. It's ok for them to be stuck in the tank and pulled out months later. It's part of the flavor.

If you want them to get combat experience to learn perks, then stop playing around and just give them the standard 3 column tree like everyone else no need for the tube at all.
Bombadil
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:07 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Bombadil »

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:

Code: Select all

	if (Template.DataName == 'Fuse')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Fortress');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('MindMerge');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'StasisShield')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Fortress');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'Domination')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('MindMerge');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Stasis');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Insanity');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'VoidRift')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Insanity');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Solace');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Soulfire');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'NullLance')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Soulfire');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Stasis');
	}
Also since solace and MindMerge are so undesirable, many players will never get the chance to learn voidrift, Fuse and domination because of these hidden prerequisites. I find this design highly questionable (why make it undocumented?).
I would be completely fine if the psi ops kept their requirement to go on missions between training (if they are balanced around this fact). But if the game uses these prerequisites atm, this frankly looks really arbitrary to me. Why should Void Rift be locked behind solace? Even if requirements like these were perfectly communicated (which they aren't atm), I don't think this is a good solution. I know that stasis is a good skill and such, but with a tree like this, you are pretty much forced to get it if you want access to your good skills.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Tuhalu »

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote: Here is what i found:

Code: Select all

	if (Template.DataName == 'Fuse')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Fortress');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('MindMerge');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'StasisShield')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Fortress');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'Domination')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('MindMerge');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Stasis');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Insanity');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'VoidRift')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Insanity');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Solace');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Soulfire');
	}

	if (Template.DataName == 'NullLance')
	{
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Soulfire');
		Template.PrerequisiteAbilities.AddItem ('Stasis');
	}
Also if I understand correctly the randomized list of psi abilities gets generated once the soldier finishes his first psi training and never changes after this. What this means is: if domination or void rift are on the bottom of this list, your soldier probably has no chance of ever learning this skill (except maybe if you know the prerequisites of skills you dont want and intentionally dont take these prerequisites). LW2 makes sure that some higher level abilities are in the top spots of the list, but those may not necessarily be the ones you want.

EDIT:
Also since solace and MindMerge are so undesirable, many players will never get the chance to learn voidrift, Fuse and domination because of these hidden prerequisites. I find this design highly questionable (why make it undocumented?).
Cool, which file did you find that in?

Looks like this makes the requirements:
  • Soul Fire -> Soul Steal
  • Insanity -> Schism
  • Fortress -> Bastion
  • Mind Merge -> Soul Merge
  • Stasis + Fortress -> Stasis Shield
  • Soulfire + Stasis -> Null Lance
  • Insanity + Soulfire + Solace -> Void Rift
  • Mind Merge + Stasis + Insanity -> Domination
  • Fortress + Mindmerge -> Fuse
None of the required abilities for Null Lance, Void Rift, Domination and Fuse require any upgraded abilities. You'll almost certainly be able to tell which ones you'll get after a Psi-ops first mission (based on your first 3 skills and your first 3 available upgrades).
LeaderEnemyBoss
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Tuhalu wrote: Cool, which file did you find that in?
LWTemplateMods.uc in Src\LW_Overhaul\Classes of the LW2 folder. If you are not familiar with .uc modding: You cannot just change this code if you want to change these prerequisites, this is not like ini-editing ;).
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Tuhalu »

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:
Tuhalu wrote: Cool, which file did you find that in?
LWTemplateMods.uc in Src\LW_Overhaul\Classes of the LW2 folder. If you are not familiar with .uc modding: You cannot just change this code if you want to change these prerequisites, this is not like ini-editing ;).
Yeah, I guessed that since it was source files. Sometimes it's hard to guess where to look based on file names though :lol:
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

"Our continued failings with the psi ops in the past few patches have left many in the resistance wondering if we have made the right approach. Nothing short of a vast improvement will do." - Spokesman
dstar3k
Posts: 91
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by dstar3k »

trihero wrote:"Our continued failings with the psi ops in the past few patches have left many in the resistance wondering if we have made the right approach. Nothing short of a vast improvement will do." - Spokesman
How about this:

Active Psi skills are trained exactly the way they are now.

However, when a psi levels up, _they still get to choose a perk_.

And it's fairly easy to make two main builds, too.

Right side: Perks that improve dodge, defense, and will somewhat for team members in range (for lower level skills) or _all team members_ (for the upper two or three skills). Actually, I'd say first three are defense, dodge, and will for all team members in range, the next three are defense, dodge, and will for all team members, and MSgt improves all three for all team members. Thus, if you go all-in on this side, team members within range will get three boosts, and team members not in rang would get two.

Left side: Perks that improve Aim, Mobility, and Crit similarly to above.

Middle: This is where passive boosts to psi skills go -- schism, bastion, soul steal, and ideally some new ones. E.g., Gestalt, causing mind merge to affect all team members within range. Null Blade, widening Null Lance's AoE. Catalysis, boosting the damage done by explosives detonated by Fuse _including quadrupling environmental damage_. Void Maelstrom, which has a chance to pull enemies within X distance of a Void Rift into its AoE (think 'mass viper pull' or, as my wife would say, 'mass IJ' (bonus points for anyone who knows where that comes from), without the holding them in place aspect... so long as they don't get yanked back in the next turn.), although that would probably be done best as a seperate skill that has to be applied after the rift is put down. (And just to be clear, no alien should ever ever ever get that, because no.)
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Tuhalu »

So I did a thing for the current dependencies.
Psi-Ops Ability Requirements.jpg
Psi-Ops Ability Requirements.jpg (64.52 KiB) Viewed 565868 times
Edit: As noted by trihero and johnnylump, you are assured one of the top 4 abilities (from Bastion, Null Lance, Void Rift and Domination). Sounds like its possible to get more than one, but by no means assured.

Edit2: Added Solace requirement for Bastion. I'd forgotten about that one.
Last edited by Tuhalu on Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:20 am, edited 5 times in total.
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

because you can't get Void Rift or Domination without it (and one of those is garaunteed to be available).
Nope, the psi I trained got neither Void Rift nor Domination by the end of training.

If you read the description in the patch notes carefully, it says that one of the skills in the top two tiers are guaranteed, so it's one of four abilities

void rift
null lance
domination
bastion

So 1/4 is guaranteed, not 1/2. Of course I got the worst one null lance, but it's not by chance it's because of the stupid prepreqs like solace for the other ones and solace bugs my game out graphically.
LeaderEnemyBoss
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Tuhalu wrote:So I did a thing for the current dependencies. It may not be perfect right now as I'm not quite 100% on which abilities are in the "first 3" pool and which ones are available for your second rank. Also, it looks like every Psi-Ops gets Insanity in their first 3, because you can't get Void Rift or Domination without it (and one of those is garaunteed to be available).
Psi-Ops Ability Requirements.jpg
Ha this is nice! I am actually thinking about doing a rework of the ingame skilltree display of psiops in this very way. This saves me some painful paint time for my mockup :p
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johnnylump
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by johnnylump »

So there's about three things that I'm willing and able to do at this point:

1) Reduce training times further
2) Improve specific abilities
3) Remove any randomization in the order in which perks show up on the list. Right now the game shuffles a deck of psi perks. I then force one of the top tier perks to be the third card in the deck. The game will replace anything you don't have the prereqs for with one of its prereqs. What I can do is remove the randomization so you know exactly what you are going to get with sufficient meta-knowledge, and you can build how you want. I think.
JulianSkies
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by JulianSkies »

I do believe the very base of all the complaints lies in #2, don't think the randomness is quite the worst factor but in general the abilities they bring to the table are generally considered not worth the investment on them.
Tuhalu
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Tuhalu »

trihero wrote:
because you can't get Void Rift or Domination without it (and one of those is garaunteed to be available).
If you read the description in the patch notes carefully, it says that one of the skills in the top two tiers are guaranteed, so it's one of four abilities

void rift
null lance
domination
bastion

So 1/4 is guaranteed, not 1/2. Of course I got the worst one null lance, but it's not by chance it's because of the stupid prepreqs like solace for the other ones and solace bugs my game out graphically.
Thanks for the correction.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Goumindong »

I think that focusing on improving abilities is probably the top of the list. An additional thing that could be done is to modify their stat scaling. (If not considered)

My rubric for this is that I view psi troopers as a "prestige" class. Not like DnD but as in the normal scope of the word. Psi troopers should be "better" than the rest of the roster not simply for thematic reasons but also for opportunity cost reasons. All other classes can be attained as a result of the GTS and don't need extra tank time. They can be had by rookies and running them on a mission. The GTS is cheap, available early, and provides other benefits.

So if I want to grab psi troopers then you need to do the research (20 or so days iirc) and the associated core and supplies cost. And then you have to manage their progress and this makes it harder for them to get AWC perks... And the list goes on.

So if I am going to take the hit to level up a psi trooper they need to be powerful when they get there. Long training time? OK. Random abilities? OK So long as the abilities you get are strong.

Edit:

I would add that the power of the class as they come out of the tank isnt so bad. But as they get abilities this just doesn't increase. And when their powers are on cooldown they're basically rookies without great scaling stats.

If they had very high aim/defense/dodge/etc scaling things would be more defensible. As it stands they gain 3 HP, 16 aim, 10 will and 73 psi offense from a rookie. That is on par with a specialist. Except they get no low CD utility to consistently use. It's worse than a shinobi (get 10 dodge). Most other classes also get some abilities that either pertain to utility shooting or to raw stat boosts which belie the true value of their stat gains.
Last edited by Goumindong on Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
bearmans
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by bearmans »

johnnylump wrote:So there's about three things that I'm willing and able to do at this point:

1) Reduce training times further
2) Improve specific abilities
3) Remove any randomization in the order in which perks show up on the list. Right now the game shuffles a deck of psi perks. I then force one of the top tier perks to be the third card in the deck. The game will replace anything you don't have the prereqs for with one of its prereqs. What I can do is remove the randomization so you know exactly what you are going to get with sufficient meta-knowledge, and you can build how you want. I think.
Honestly I'm 50/50 on whether any of that is actually going to be enough to make a Psi worthwhile. My opinion after trying my hardest to like psi operatives is, in Long War 2, we've got 8 heavily refined and fleshed out classes with powerful innate abilities, many of which become incredibly powerful by or at MSgt. If Psis don't get anything beyond their vanilla kit, I'm not sure it's possible to stop them from looking lackluster so long as they come with hefty price tags and training time.

EDIT: Okay, on second thought, I'm being a bit dramatic. But the power level does need to go way, way up.
Tuhalu
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Tuhalu »

johnnylump wrote:So there's about three things that I'm willing and able to do at this point:

1) Reduce training times further
2) Improve specific abilities
3) Remove any randomization in the order in which perks show up on the list. Right now the game shuffles a deck of psi perks. I then force one of the top tier perks to be the third card in the deck. The game will replace anything you don't have the prereqs for with one of its prereqs. What I can do is remove the randomization so you know exactly what you are going to get with sufficient meta-knowledge, and you can build how you want. I think.
I think 1 and 2 are probably the most important things to tackle.

For training times, I'd reduce the time for abilities that are too high a level. You spend separate time training and infiltrating, making Psi-Ops significantly slower to level. It's similar to the cost of levelling an Officer.

I suspect psi damage abilities need to scale better over the course of the game. Adding in a mid-tier psi-amp seems like it was a good start, but I haven't had a chance to really test it out yet.

Fortress, Bastion, Fuse, Sustain, Stasis, Stasis Shield and Domination are probably fine.

Insanity seems to be hard to use effectively at all (because it's a coin flip if it does anything). It probably needs to be more likely to hit or to do something even if it fails.

Mind Merge and Soul Merge could stand to be on a 2 turn cooldown, with a 2 turn duration and to be non-turn ending. This would bring it close to being on par with Aid Protocol, which doesn't take 2 abilities to be good.
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

For the love of humanity, remove solace from being a prereq for anything at least. It bugs the game out graphically.

Just about every skill needs to be buffed.

Null Lance - compared to sat fire, it's just so so bad. 1 tile width? Half the damage? =_= Damage and width doubling would be a good starting point.

Void Rift - dat 7 turn cooldown makes me wonder why not just bring a grenadier for a bunch of incendiary bombs which would guaranteed disable organic units and do a lot more damage. Should be like a 4 turn cooldown.

Soul Fire - girl please, a master psi with 93 offense and advanced psi amp was doing....5-9 damage with this. With that level of tech and perks you could have a gunner with hail of bullets shooting at least a coil weapon for like 10-15 that works on anything, not just organic units.

Mind Merge- good god, it sucks. Minimum make it 1 action not turn ending, last 2 full turns, no los requirement.

All 1, 2, and 3 need to be implemented.

"Nothing short of a vast improvement will do, Commander." - Spokesman
Sir_Dr_D
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Sir_Dr_D »

I would like to see PSI, being more about support, and improves the abilities of the squad then raw damage.

So null lance could give a disorient effect to all targets it hits, that lasts for 2 turns.

Mind Merge should give a power boost to the recipient boosting all stats and making them better then they are outside the mind merge.

Have an ability that reduces other soldiers cool downs of abilities.

Force aliens to shoot at a particular target.

Being able to create Psi zombies would be a unique tactical advantage

Cause enemies to need to reload.

Have Psi's be able to put other soldiers into conceal.

Control where alien reinforcements land. (that could be a fun one)
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Saph7 »

JulianSkies wrote:I do believe the very base of all the complaints lies in #2, don't think the randomness is quite the worst factor but in general the abilities they bring to the table are generally considered not worth the investment on them.
Goumindong wrote:I think that focusing on improving abilities is probably the top of the list. An additional thing that could be done is to modify their stat scaling. (If not considered)
I'd agree with this. I don't think people would mind the randomness so much if it would give you a selection of strong to decent abilities. The problem is when you get a selection of average to weak abilities. Since the other 8 classes are free and Psi Ops have an additional cost, they really need have strong skills available to them to justify the investment.

Lower training times would help, but the problem at the moment is that even if you could train a Psi fast enough to catch up to your Master Sergeants, they'd still be worse once they got there.
Autoclave
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Autoclave »

I don't see the benefits of ANY changes brought to Psi by Pavonis. I would like to get the good old vanilla system back. It worked perfectly fine and I had absolutely no issues with it. It wasn't op, it did not make the other classes useless.

Can we have a mod with vanilla Psi for long war 2?
trihero
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by trihero »

Autoclave wrote:I don't see the benefits of ANY changes brought to Psi by Pavonis. I would like to get the good old vanilla system back. It worked perfectly fine and I had absolutely no issues with it. It wasn't op, it did not make the other classes useless.

Can we have a mod with vanilla Psi for long war 2?
Yup, original system was fine. They made a mess out of it by splicing it with a required battle experience component. If you're going to do a battle experience component, then just make it like everyone else with 3 picks, no tube training time, etc. The flavor is ruined by trying to serve two masters.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Saph7 »

Thinking about it, the best comparison might be of a Psi trooper to a GTS/AWC trooper.

A squaddie goes on missions, gets enough EXP to hit Sergeant. They go into the GTS for three officer promotions. This costs them 3 sessions worth of training time, and leaves them with:

• Base class abilities
• 3 promotion abilities from their base class
• 3 extra officer abilities

A soon-to-be-AWC squaddie goes on missions, gets enough EXP to hit Sergeant. They go into the AWC for a bunch of tube time. This also costs them 3 sessions of training time, and leaves them with:

• Base class abilities
• 3 promotion abilities from their base class
• 3 extra AWC perks

A rookie goes into the psi tube and then goes on missions, getting enough EXP to hit Disciple. In between missions, he goes back in the tube. Like the GTS/AWC, this costs them 3 sessions worth of training time, and leaves them with:

• Base Psi abilities
• 3 promotion Psi abilities

So it's no wonder the Psi is so weak! They cost the same amount of training time as an AWC or GTS soldier, but they're permanently behind the AWC/GTS soldier because the other soldier is getting his regular promotion abilities AND the AWC/officer perks on top of that. The officer or AWC soldier gets to double dip, the psi doesn't.

So to be worth it, the Psi abilities have to be much better than standard soldier abilities, and at the moment they're quite obviously not.
LeaderEnemyBoss
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

trihero wrote:
Autoclave wrote:I don't see the benefits of ANY changes brought to Psi by Pavonis. I would like to get the good old vanilla system back. It worked perfectly fine and I had absolutely no issues with it. It wasn't op, it did not make the other classes useless.

Can we have a mod with vanilla Psi for long war 2?
Yup, original system was fine. They made a mess out of it by splicing it with a required battle experience component. If you're going to do a battle experience component, then just make it like everyone else with 3 picks, no tube training time, etc. The flavor is ruined by trying to serve two masters.
I like it better the way LW2 does it. Special and weird requirment for a special and weird class. I didnt like the "put into tank and forgot for 3 months "system of vanilla". Also Vanilla PsiOps were OP. and reinforced the reserve difficulty curve. Lets not do that again. All we need is the investment to be worthwhile, which is achievable.
LeaderEnemyBoss
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Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

(double post, delete)
Last edited by LeaderEnemyBoss on Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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