Psi Ops still suck?

synthphase
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:54 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by synthphase »

I modified my PSI ops in a few ways before even starting my first game because I liked them so much in the OC (modified them a bit in there too) and I knew Long War 2 would be punishing enough without even trying.

I'm having the best time with them. A couple things that I think are good about my modification:

1. Reduced the requirement to get the PSI Chamber. Removed the sectoid corpse and elerium core requirement. This would have forced PSI production till the first troop column or supply raid mission and if you miss enough of those you could potentially never get to build it in a reasonable enough time.

2. Added back "inspire" perk. Gave "run and gun", "soulfire" , "insanity" and "inspire" as four starting perks. I think the script always gives the first two and randomly picks between the last two. Removed "mind merge", "bastion", "fuse", "solace", "sustain", "soul-steal" and "fortress". Replaced these with some fun perks from other classes. I wanted a pure damage or mind control class and don't care too much about protecting other troops, plus inspire does most of these jobs by itself when you have a few of these guys.

3. Changed Psi-cap to 120 (wasn't this vanilla?), also gave more strength per level and more PSI! Soldiers get to 100 earlier and are more useful in the mid-late game. Plus they can aim cuz they're super-smart.

4. Changed the cool-down on PSI skills by one.

5. Slightly reduced the training times.

6. Increased the mind-control time for insanity mind controls to 99. Vanilla never had a limit to this.

I did some other stuff that most people would consider cheese (if they don't already). Like I let them use cannons, and gave them hail-of-bullets and serial. They still have to level up and choose between these and things like void-rift, etc.

I think the main things from what people are complaining about and my "cheating" experience are just leveling them up faster and getting them into the game faster so they can level up. Then no matter what other skills you have, throwing up a void-rift with schism on a pod of 6+ is a sight to behold. I've gotten 4 mind-controls in one go out of one of these, usually have 100 % chance to cause insanity on first-gen Mutons, which also has a chance for mind-control. Null-lance may need to scale up but with run-and-gun it takes on a puzzle-game aspect when you try to line up a shot.

- lazy old man who likes to take it easy and not yell at his computer too much.
Veneficus
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:07 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Veneficus »

LordYanaek wrote:Well it used to be this way in LW1 (sort of) as Psi Abilities were added on top of existing classes, but it's not how it works in XCom2 and i don't think the devs plan to change Psi that much so it would be something for another mod.
But it can turn out that way...

In the campaign I lost today, I had a psi operative that was a much better shooter than psi specialist. The AWC perks which were randomly generated, far exceeded the psi abilities. (Hail of bullets, center mass, deadeye.)

...and who uses mindmerge at all?
darkerevent
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by darkerevent »

(Speaking from the PoV of a Veteran difficulty player who is just about to finish out a 1.2 campaign.)

My experience has been that Rift + Schism can be pretty awesome with the Insanity procs on clusters of enemy organics. For what amounts to a reusable big grenade that blows their minds, I don't think that's too bad off. Stasis is likewise nice for telling a miniboss "nono I will deal with you next turn." Dominate is apparently pretty strong (I happened to screw myself out of getting it on my main PsiOp in my current playthrough).

I haven't had the pleasure of using Fuse yet, but I would imagine that hitting Fuse on an Acid or Incendiary grenade would be joy-inducing. (Or a flashbang, if that can happen.) In general, Fuse seems to be precisely the kind of creative and unique psychic attack that I wish there was more of in the tree.

Overall, I don't feel like a leveled up PsiOp is a weak character (especially if they got any reasonable AWC perks for enhancing their utility or shooting for times when they don't have a good spell available to use), but investing in them is definitely a choice that has to be weighed out. In my case it has felt worthwhile because I like to clump troops in smoke (for which Solace+Bastion is an excellent synergy), but if the aura synergy wasn't there, then I probably wouldn't feel remiss to just replace the PsiOp with another explosive Grenadier.

I do kind of wish they got a skill which was simply, "damage or destroy cover in the target area." Telekinesis-ing the wall down is just a great image, and it would have tactical usefulness at all stages of the game.

Even Mind Merge has a niche for me (helping my Assaults make excessively heroic forward dashes), although I do wish that it still had more of its LW1 utility of allowing Psi characters to pool their powers to help with overcoming the will of a particularly resistant enemy. If it's only going to give Ablative and Will, then it should probably have either a longer duration or a shorter base cooldown (imo).
TechnoMage
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:10 am

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by TechnoMage »

darkerevent wrote:(Speaking from the PoV of a Veteran difficulty player who is just about to finish out a 1.2 campaign.)
Even Mind Merge has a niche for me (helping my Assaults make excessively heroic forward dashes), although I do wish that it still had more of its LW1 utility of allowing Psi characters to pool their powers to help with overcoming the will of a particularly resistant enemy. If it's only going to give Ablative and Will, then it should probably have either a longer duration or a shorter base cooldown (imo).
Yea I was planning on giving it extra duration for my next playthrough so it lasts through 2 enemy turns instead of 1, thought it would be more worth it that way. Never thought of adding psi offense, never thought of using it to burst through high will defence in LW1.
The|suit
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:48 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by The|suit »

I think best way to handle soul fire is make its damage based on percentage of enemy total health instead of flat damage.
So you do a guaranteed 33% total health damage minimum and the alien becomes immune to future soul fire after that. So if an alien had 15 health. It will do a guaranteed 5 damage at least, but you couldn't cheap it by using multiple soul fires against them.
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Ithuriel »

darkerevent wrote: I do kind of wish they got a skill which was simply, "damage or destroy cover in the target area." Telekinesis-ing the wall down is just a great image, and it would have tactical usefulness at all stages of the game.
FWIW Long War 1 had pretty much this exact skill- it functioned much the same as Demolition, but purely cooldown-based. That said, in the original LW psychics were enhanced other classes- so you could throw mind bullets on top of your normal shenanigans... (I threw the three Furies as support grenadiers. Because yes, I did need 6 psibangs, thank you very much). I think the best example from LW2 would be running a Technical psyker so they can do stuff in their downtime.


Also, is Soul Steal just totally worthless? It provides minor healing, and doesn't even reduce injury time... I feel like if at least it reduced or eliminated wounded time it might be worth it, but as of the moment it's just useless. I almost feel the same way about Sustain, though I can see its use; if it activates, the soldier is already in the medbay for a month after combat...

EDIT: Plus neither of them are prereqs for any higher-level abilities.

johnnylump wrote:So there's about three things that I'm willing and able to do at this point:

1) Reduce training times further
2) Improve specific abilities
3) Remove any randomization in the order in which perks show up on the list. Right now the game shuffles a deck of psi perks. I then force one of the top tier perks to be the third card in the deck. The game will replace anything you don't have the prereqs for with one of its prereqs. What I can do is remove the randomization so you know exactly what you are going to get with sufficient meta-knowledge, and you can build how you want. I think.
I don't have any deep insights into the balance of the game, but there is one thing that stands out to me; as things stand, Soul Steal is nearly worthless to train. Damage is often a lot more binary in LW2; it's not uncommon for soldiers to go from full health -> dead very very quickly. Soul Fire does relatively low damage anyway, so the healing you'll get will usually be less than a basic medkit; on top of that, if you take half your health in damage, the Psi Operative is going to be spending half a month in the medbay- further delaying their already lengthy training time. Would it be unbalanced to keep Soul Sustain numbers as they are now, but make it so that the healing is permanent? I.e. that wound time was calculated on lowest HP hit + Soul Sustain heal?
Last edited by Ithuriel on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
LeaderEnemyBoss
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Soo it took me quite some time, but here is my attempt at the issue: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =888340114.

I left the basic LW2 design intact. Since PsiAbilities are now a limited ressource, i tried to make sure, that the weaker ones get upgrades that make them a valuable tool. I also added some new stuff and gave some buff. Additionally my new promotion screen makes sure that skill requirements are properly communicated. This is a first release, so stuff will change. But first I need some data.
Autoclave
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:00 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Autoclave »

Thank you for all your effort. I will try it today :) Those telekinesis abilities are exactly the kind of utility I was expecting from this class!
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Jacke »

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:Soo it took me quite some time, but here is my attempt at the issue: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =888340114.
Thanks for doing this. However, the Alternate Mod Launcher is saying your mod conflicts with Long War 2. Any ideas on this?
LeaderEnemyBoss
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Jacke wrote:
LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:Soo it took me quite some time, but here is my attempt at the issue: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =888340114.
Thanks for doing this. However, the Alternate Mod Launcher is saying your mod conflicts with Long War 2. Any ideas on this?
It's about UIArmory_PromotionPsiOp, right? I override this class. LW2 allows overriding its own classes with a new override-system, and the alternate Launcher doesnt know about this system, thats why it thinks there is a conflict.
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Jacke »

LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:It's about UIArmory_PromotionPsiOp, right? I override this class. LW2 allows overriding its own classes with a new override-system, and the alternate Launcher doesnt know about this system, thats why it thinks there is a conflict.
It is indeed UIArmory_PromotionPsiOp.
Mods with colliding overrides found!
These mods will not (fully) work when run together.

Conflict found for 'UIArmory_PromotionPsiOp':
LW2: Make PsiOps Great Again!
* Long War 2
* Long War 2

* (These mods use UIScreenListeners, meaning they do not conflict with each other)
LeaderEnemyBoss
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by LeaderEnemyBoss »

Jacke wrote:
LeaderEnemyBoss wrote:It's about UIArmory_PromotionPsiOp, right? I override this class. LW2 allows overriding its own classes with a new override-system, and the alternate Launcher doesnt know about this system, thats why it thinks there is a conflict.
It is indeed UIArmory_PromotionPsiOp.
Mods with colliding overrides found!
These mods will not (fully) work when run together.

Conflict found for 'UIArmory_PromotionPsiOp':
LW2: Make PsiOps Great Again!
* Long War 2
* Long War 2

* (These mods use UIScreenListeners, meaning they do not conflict with each other)
Let me assure you, there is no conflict. All I do is replace this class completely (so LW2's Screenlisteners for this class dont work anymore ..which is intended, i got my own ;) ).
darkerevent
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by darkerevent »

I would happily see Soul Steal removed in favor of almost any other psi skill design (such as LW1-style cover destruction via telekinesis). No-way-no-how am I going to position my psi op so he's getting shot with the intent to tank stuff and regain health afterward -- not when training times are already so restrictive as it is, and not when "intentionally getting shot a little" can easily turn into "lol you're dead."
josna238
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:09 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by josna238 »

I suggest a change in the infiltration time of psi operatives. Maybe half time as a rookie or a shinobi.

I think everybody has his A-Team made of 4 or 5 soldiers and if we have the possibility of add more soldiers (good infiltration, materiel, especial mission, etc) we add soldiers that match well with our style and the mission.

In my case my A-Team is made of a shinobi (scouting), a medic (I play red fog), a grenadier (deal damage and cover) and a gunner (grants kills and control).

The question is that for the free slots to add solldiers to our A team who really choose a psi operative? if we play with RedFog a grenadier or techic that spread damage or a medic that can restore HP is much better. And if play without RedFog a ranger, gunner or sniper is much better becuse they grant kills.

Also, they have a huge cost in time, resources, research and training (both him and XP lost from the slot in squad). I really think they don't worth the cost and the squad slot in any case.

I don't think a buff in perks were a good idea because the psiops easily trespass the border between useless to rulers. So with my suggestion of decreasing infiltration times of them, we will have a reason to have 2 or 3 psis on the rooster and bring them to missions whe we have a good infiltration time (up to 120% for example) but is not enough to grant a 100% if we bring a gunner, a grenadier, etc.

So my idea is not to make them much better, but give the player a reason to use then more often.
Bill365
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Bill365 »

Hi. Thanks for the informative discussion on Psi Ops. I agree with an earlier post that with the time and resources you have to dedicate to getting Psi Ops, they should be "gods among men". As they are in 1.2, they are arguably the weakest class in the game, which is a shame because I also think they are tremendously fun. So I figure I'd like to mod my game to make them more what I would like them to be.

I know how to edit the ini files, but that's about it. Using tips from this thread, I've figured out how to a) make the rookies with a higher psi offense, b) allow them to start with 8 powers, so they will end up with the whole tool-belt when all trained up, c) Reduce the training time for the powers, and d) modify the cool-down time for the powers. Thanks! I haven't gotten my first modified Psi trooper advanced in promotions yet, but I think I have a good start.

But here's the thing. I would also like to be able to tweek the damage the powers do by modding the various tiers of Psiamp. I know how to easily find the ini's to do this vanilla in the weapon data folder, but I just can't seem to find them in lw2's ini's. I can only find the ones for the player avatar Psiamp. Does anyone know if the other tiers are in there somewhere, and direct me where to find them?

Failing this, does anyone know the proper console command to ~ giveitem myself an avatar psiamp, so I can edit it's effect?

There are other ideas I have that would be nice, but I assume would be beyond my skills to edit ini's, and would require coding. Stuff like allowing the benefits of ammo apply to psi powers like it does to pistols would be nice, or converting some of the powers to single action rather than turn-ending.
JulianSkies
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by JulianSkies »

Bill365 wrote:But here's the thing. I would also like to be able to tweek the damage the powers do by modding the various tiers of Psiamp. I know how to easily find the ini's to do this vanilla in the weapon data folder, but I just can't seem to find them in lw2's ini's. I can only find the ones for the player avatar Psiamp. Does anyone know if the other tiers are in there somewhere, and direct me where to find them?
When a mod doesn't changes some vanilla behaviour the game then defaults to using the vanilla setup. In this case the way they changed Psi Amps was in a manner that still pulls the vanilla INI settings, so for you you can change those. No idea if that'll be the case in 1.3
fowlJ
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:45 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by fowlJ »

JulianSkies wrote:No idea if that'll be the case in 1.3
It will not, as they are increasing the damage of later tier psi abilities.

Which on that note, Bill, you may wish to wait a little bit and see how psi plays in 1.3, which is likely releasing some time in the near-ish future - they've made a bunch of pretty significant buffs to it compared to 1.2.
Bill365
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Bill365 »

Thanks to both of you! I look forward to seeing what 1.3 does. And thanks tons for all the work Pavonis has put into this amazing mod. I'm having a BLAST with it. Pardon the dumb question, but when 1.3 drops, do I need to start a new campaign to use it, or does it kick in with my existing game?
fowlJ
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:45 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by fowlJ »

Bill365 wrote:Thanks to both of you! I look forward to seeing what 1.3 does. And thanks tons for all the work Pavonis has put into this amazing mod. I'm having a BLAST with it. Pardon the dumb question, but when 1.3 drops, do I need to start a new campaign to use it, or does it kick in with my existing game?
You don't need to start a new campaign, but more than a couple of the changes (including most or all the psi operative ones) won't be applied retroactively - you'd need to use the console to do things like respec your soldiers to use the new perk trees and tear down your psi lab and cheat in a new one to get the new staff slot. Unless you're super attached to a game you've got going on, it's probably easier to restart.
boy_cad
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by boy_cad »

Regarding just about exactly what has been said above, about PsiOps being lousy...
Make PsiOps Great Again by u/Babutz

I've installed it myself, but havent had a chance to actually try its changes.
Bill365
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Bill365 »

Looking at the 1.3 patch notes, it does look ling some good things are happening for Psi soldiers. To me, the best single thing is making insanity and mind merge (and I can't remember if others) not end your turn. That change alone can make a big difference.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:00 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Saph7 »

Psi Ops are much, much better in 1.3. I spent a long time getting frustrated with them, but the most recent round of changes has finally made them competitive with the other classes. I'm happy to bring Psis on missions now, whereas before I'd keep on getting frustrated with how weak they were.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Tuhalu »

For what it is worth, the new requirements list for 1.3 Psi Operatives is:
  • Soul Fire -> Soul Steal
  • Insanity -> Schism
  • Mind Merge -> Soul Merge
  • Fortress -> Bastion
  • Fortress -> Fuse
  • Fortress + Stasis -> Stasis Shield
  • Solace + Stasis -> Domination
  • Solace + Fortress -> Void Rift
  • Stasis -> Null Lance
Also, every Psi Operative starts with Soul Fire, Quick Study, Insanity and Mind Merge.

Interestingly, it seems that Fortress (3), Stasis (3) and Solace (2) basically determine which high end Psi abilities you'll be able to access.
Sparky79
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:59 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by Sparky79 »

The whole prerequisites is a terrible idea.
Look at this: Fortres goes against Soul steal. Now at its base its already a bit of a difficult choice as it gives immunities vs healing/ablative. BUT if you choose Soul Steal you cant get: Bastion (which makes sense), Fuse or Stasis shield. And seeing how Soul Steal isnt needed for anything, nor does it boost Soul Fires damage/cd/hit/anything why would you choose it?

Same with Schism vs Solace - both are good choices except choosing Schism means no: Bastion and worse, no Void rift. And if you DO get Void rift it will be nerfed because you cant have it and Schism.

As they are they force the player to choose those two abilities.

So why have prerequisites other then the obvious ones (Fortres -> Bastion, Stasis -> Stasis shield, etc)?
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 422
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:25 pm

Re: Psi Ops still suck?

Post by gimrah »

Sparky79 wrote:The whole prerequisites is a terrible idea.
Look at this: Fortres goes against Soul steal. Now at its base its already a bit of a difficult choice as it gives immunities vs healing/ablative. BUT if you choose Soul Steal you cant get: Bastion (which makes sense), Fuse or Stasis shield. And seeing how Soul Steal isnt needed for anything, nor does it boost Soul Fires damage/cd/hit/anything why would you choose it?

Same with Schism vs Solace - both are good choices except choosing Schism means no: Bastion and worse, no Void rift. And if you DO get Void rift it will be nerfed because you cant have it and Schism.

As they are they force the player to choose those two abilities.

So why have prerequisites other then the obvious ones (Fortres -> Bastion, Stasis -> Stasis shield, etc)?
Prerequisites are how PI makes sure you have some options with reasonable training times at a given level and still get access to something more powerful later on. They may or may not have designed it like that if they were designing from scratch rather than modding.

Psi ops are pretty good now. With quick study they make the ultimate support class as officers, or pistoleer can be interesting too for ultimate action economy.

I felt we were getting to a good place with them when I realised I was now thinking "what's the best thing my psi op can do this turn?" instead of "can my psi op do anything this turn?".
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