Battlefield Medicine PG Project

[nightwyrm]

So...I just had my PG do the project that gives me Nanomedikits coz I had a brain fart and thought having all my medikits heal more hp would be pretty useful (as in Vanilla). But of course I get a single kit in the inventory with the option to build more for 20 supplies each and I'm just bashing my head against the wall for being an idiot. For this kind of resources (1 E. Core, 100 Supplies, Viper corpses, days of PG time; 20 Supplies for each additional kit) I could've just build a bunch of alloy or tactical vests or predator armor for my dudes and get more bang for my buck. For an item/ability that is purely reactive, is only a numeric upgrade to an existing infinite item but does less than a Specialist perk you get for free, it costs way too much. Maybe make the additional kits cost way less so it's easier to deploy more kits once you finished the project.

If this was a Yelp review, it'd have a "0/10 would not research again" comment.

[GavinRuneblade]

I think this is doubly true given how many players feel healing of any kind is significantly weaker than taking more killing power. It is hard to justify a huge cost added onto a weak item.

[Krosly]

Given how good the cover is in LW2 and how you can give your soldiers perks like Tactical Sense and similar ones in AWC I didn't feel like I needed to heal all that much and I am glad I didn't research it now. Seriously flashbangs, suppression > medkits.

[Jacke]

So...I just had my PG do the project that gives me Nanomedikits coz I had a brain fart and thought having all my medikits heal more hp would be pretty useful (as in Vanilla). But of course I get a single kit in the inventory with the option to build more for 20 supplies each and I'm just bashing my head against the wall for being an idiot. For this kind of resources (1 E. Core, 100 Supplies, Viper corpses, days of PG time; 20 Supplies for each additional kit) I could've just build a bunch of alloy or tactical vests or predator armor for my dudes and get more bang for my buck. For an item/ability that is purely reactive, is only a numeric upgrade to an existing infinite item but does less than a Specialist perk you get for free, it costs way too much. Maybe make the additional kits cost way less so it's easier to deploy more kits once you finished the project.

Often it's how you use the kit. Every soldier doesn't carry every upgrade. Would it be worth it buying 1 Nanomedkit for each of your Specialist Medics? You usually only have 1, 2, maybe 3 medics, so you can take them on the tough slogging missions like Supply Raids at 0% or when being swarmed by the Bugs. Would it be worth the PG project and paying out 60 supplies for better medics?

[nightwyrm]

So...I just had my PG do the project that gives me Nanomedikits coz I had a brain fart and thought having all my medikits heal more hp would be pretty useful (as in Vanilla). But of course I get a single kit in the inventory with the option to build more for 20 supplies each and I'm just bashing my head against the wall for being an idiot. For this kind of resources (1 E. Core, 100 Supplies, Viper corpses, days of PG time; 20 Supplies for each additional kit) I could've just build a bunch of alloy or tactical vests or predator armor for my dudes and get more bang for my buck. For an item/ability that is purely reactive, is only a numeric upgrade to an existing infinite item but does less than a Specialist perk you get for free, it costs way too much. Maybe make the additional kits cost way less so it's easier to deploy more kits once you finished the project.

Often it's how you use the kit. Every soldier doesn't carry every upgrade. Would it be worth it buying 1 Nanomedkit for each of your Specialist Medics? You usually only have 1, 2, maybe 3 medics, so you can take them on the tough slogging missions like Supply Raids at 0% or when being swarmed by the Bugs. Would it be worth the PG project and paying out 60 supplies for better medics?

It's the opportunity cost. In my current game I have a total of around 60 dudes. I have maybe 2 dedicated medics who goes down the left tree completely. Spending a total of 120 Supplies so I can have 2 Nanomedikits and heal maybe 8 more hp in total is just an enormous waste of time and money. I'd rather have two more Coil guns instead. If anything, I think Nanomedikits would be better on non-dedicated medics. Medic perks like Gremlin Heal and Saviour already adds to hp healed. Stack too much +hp healed and you'd just be over-healing.

Disclaimer: I don't use Red Fog so topping up dudes all the time isn't a concern to me. I just need my guys to not die to the next hit. But even if I did...there's just too many things that takes priority over slightly better, expensive medikits. Tactical Vests give 1 armor and 4 hp, and it costs the same as the Nanomedikit.

[trihero]

Shrug, field medic is an AWC perk that goes well with battlefield medicine. I agree it's not an exciting PG project that makes sense to rush, but at the end of the day it's more hp healed which helps when your characters are wearing powered armor and reduces that red fog.

[nightwyrm]

Shrug, field medic is an AWC perk that goes well with battlefield medicine. I agree it's not an exciting PG project that makes sense to rush, but at the end of the day it's more hp healed which helps when your characters are wearing powered armor and reduces that red fog.

There are so many PG projects that being at the end of the line for prioritization mean it might as well not exist.

[Randal Miser]

Suppose it depends doesn't it.

In the early game where you have absolutely no need for a healing item that heals for more than 4, the upgraded medkits would indeed be a waste of resources.

But later on as you get various health buffs your healthbars just extend on and on, making healing for 4 health almost a waste of a specialist action for when you might want to heal a really tanky soldier who has soaked up a full crit plasma blast to the face.

Think of it more as a bonus thing you can get if you really want to and have the extra resources available.
You don't have to, but it's nice to have in case of emergency.

[nightwyrm]

In MTG parlance, Battlefield Med feels like a "win-more". It's an option that's only good when you're winning and a trap when you're not.

[trihero]

I wouldn't say it's a win more, especially when you play with red fog on. It's good if you have a medical specialist or someone with field medic, or just in general as your hp pools go up. You are going to get hit eventually even if you hide behind high cover, and the medikit saves you from losing massive accuracy/move debuffs from that inevitable damage, as well as gets you out of the "one more hit me dead" zone. That's not win more.

Here's one way to look at it:

I always carry a medikit on everyone when doing HQ/supply raids. They are long slogs where it can be very relevant to restore hp, and they provide passive immunity to stupid viper poison.

But as you get more hp (and as the aliens do more damage), 4 hp heal isn't that much anymore. Having the battlefield medicine would help in those scenarios. In terms of cost it is pretty cheap for that additional 2 hp (consider alloy plating which is 10 supplies 1 trooper corpse 1 alloy for 1 additional hp, or chitin plating which is a hefty chrysallid corpse + whatever else). Besides the initial research cost, 20 supplies isn't too bad. And what's nice about this hp is you can "transfer" it to whoever needs it instead of wearing a vest that is stuck on the owner.

There are plenty of other proving grounds projects which I think are worse than battlefield medicine. I think the ammunition in general are garbage (when's the last time you used redscreen, blue screen, or flechette rounds?) since AP/tracer are largely good enough and aren't costly. A lot of the suits I wouldn't touch.

I suppose I am curious to see what kind of buff you really want out of this research.

[Poobah]

The problem with healing in LW2 is that not only are there a lot of ways to avoid and reduce incoming damage with cover, armour, defence from various sources and ablative hp, but also taking any damage is, much like in LW1, incredibly punishing in terms of the wound timers so taking healing items over either damage items or far superior defensive items just seems like planning to fail. Why would I take a medkit when I can take an extra flashbang or smoke bomb, for instance which would very likely prevent a lot of incoming damage on multiple soldiers across multiple turns and won't result in wound timers crippling my roster?

[nightwyrm]

I suppose I am curious to see what kind of buff you really want out of this research.

Honestly, I would be fine with it if it just did a squad upgrade like Vanilla since that was what was on my mind when I choose to research it. Or maybe if it cost 2 Supplies each afterwards. Paying 20 Supplies extra for each kit is just nonsense. Overdrive Serum, which is insanely better, manages to cost 1/10th the cost.

[Sines]

I think it just needs to be cheaper. It's a really long and expensive project, so I was expecting it to be a 'squad upgrade', rather than just another one-off project. Reduce the project cost and time, and it'd likely feel better.

[trihero]

I suppose I am curious to see what kind of buff you really want out of this research.

Honestly, I would be fine with it if it just did a squad upgrade like Vanilla since that was what was on my mind when I choose to research it. Or maybe if it cost 2 Supplies each afterwards. Paying 20 Supplies extra for each kit is just nonsense. Overdrive Serum, which is insanely better, manages to cost 1/10th the cost.

Overdrive serum is overpowered currently; it will require a corpse again per make.

20 supplies for each one is not nonsense. I already explained why it isn't, consider Alloy Plating which is +1 ablative improvement over ceramic. Costs 10 supplies + 1 trooper corpse + 1 alloy. Trooper corpse is essentially 5 or 10 dollars how you look at it. So you're paying 15 supplies + 1 alloy for +1 hp. If you consider like Chitin Plating which is +2 ablative over ceramic, it makes battlefield medicine look like a steal, especially considering how you can heal others with it not just yourself.

At the end of the day I don't understand why you're fixated on this one item when there are others that are worse.

Do you think alloy/chitin also need buffs?

[nightwyrm]

I suppose I am curious to see what kind of buff you really want out of this research.

Honestly, I would be fine with it if it just did a squad upgrade like Vanilla since that was what was on my mind when I choose to research it. Or maybe if it cost 2 Supplies each afterwards. Paying 20 Supplies extra for each kit is just nonsense. Overdrive Serum, which is insanely better, manages to cost 1/10th the cost.

Overdrive serum is overpowered currently; it will require a corpse again per make.

20 supplies for each one is not nonsense. I already explained why it isn't, consider Alloy Plating which is +1 ablative improvement over ceramic. Costs 10 supplies + 1 trooper corpse + 1 alloy. Trooper corpse is essentially 5 or 10 dollars how you look at it. So you're paying 15 supplies + 1 alloy for +1 hp. If you consider like Chitin Plating which is +2 ablative over ceramic, it makes battlefield medicine look like a steal, especially considering how you can heal others with it not just yourself.

At the end of the day I don't understand why you're fixated on this one item when there are others that are worse.

Do you think alloy/chitin also need buffs?

Eh...I'm not fixate on this. I started this thread over a week ago coz I was super annoyed back then. I've just been replying to people right now.

But I'm also somewhat feeling that it's indicative of a design problem in LW2. More decisions isn't necessarily more fun. At a certain point, it becomes tedium. I'm already making choices for weapons, weapon mods, armor, grenades, vests etc. Choosing whether to put a Hazmat or Tac vest on a dude is interesting, choosing whether to stack armor pips and ablative vests on a single dude to make a tank is interesting, choosing whether to spend 20 on a slightly better Medkit or just take one of the infinite ones for a Medic is not.

[trihero]

Choosing whether to put a Hazmat or Tac vest on a dude is interesting, choosing whether to stack armor pips and ablative vests on a single dude to make a tank is interesting, choosing whether to spend 20 on a slightly better Medkit or just take one of the infinite ones for a Medic is not.

Why is choosing to spend 15 supplies + 1 alloy to get a very slightly better ablative armor rather than the infinitely available Ceramic armor an interesting choice?

[nightwyrm]

Choosing whether to put a Hazmat or Tac vest on a dude is interesting, choosing whether to stack armor pips and ablative vests on a single dude to make a tank is interesting, choosing whether to spend 20 on a slightly better Medkit or just take one of the infinite ones for a Medic is not.

Why is choosing to spend 15 supplies + 1 alloy to get a very slightly better ablative armor rather than the infinitely available Ceramic armor an interesting choice?

By itself, it's not. But trying to maximize armor and ablatives so you can have a tank that don't need to spend a month in the hospital seems like a viable option that have decent payoff. The payoff for maximizing healing seems much less.

[Jacke]

The payoff for maximizing healing seems much less.

The First Rule of XCOM Club is don't get hit. And gear that supports that is vital.

But when that Field Commander / Master Sergeant you've spend so long developing gets badly hit, and you have a medic with a Nanomedkit nearby, maybe the payoff will be then.

[trihero]

By itself, it's not. But trying to maximize armor and ablatives so you can have a tank that don't need to spend a month in the hospital seems like a viable option that have decent payoff. The payoff for maximizing healing seems much less.

You forget that you can apply healing to other units, whereas the tank's vests are stuck on him. If other people on your team get accidentally wounded a number of times, you can pour medikits from multiple people to fix it up and keep them from the one shot range. If you don't take medikits, then you're stuck with whatever armor you happen to be wearing and your team can't help that.

I think that's the fundamental thing that makes healing interesting.

Not to mention, well I did mention this several times: red fog. You can see from xwynn's recent HQ assault that had a guy with like 4/17 hp before he got into the final engagement. I bet he wishes he had more/better medikits to get rid of the fog, and I'm sure this an easy point to grasp.