Thoughts on Kubikiri?

[rakoon79]

Currently, Sharpshooter's Kubikiri perk feels quite underwhelmed at the moment.

Observations : (* for general stuff, + for pros, - for cons)

* It's basically an enhanced version of vanilla repeater in some sense

+ Unlike Vanilla Repeater, we can indeed micromanage to increase the proc %

+ Theoretically, it can one-kill a tough enemy in a single turn

+ Even if the effect doesn't proc, you still deal some damage

- Long cooldown (I know short cooldown would allow spamming of 1-hit-KO perk, which indeed can be broken

- Setting up a decent CTC just for the perk seems to be over-investment, eventually leading to build min/maxing leakage

- It is a GSGT Perk. Logically speaking in terms of the soldier rank system, it is one of the 3 skills that are 2nd best that Sharpshooters can learn. However, for this "2nd best perk that Shaprshooter can learn" to work properly, we have to build/support specifically to enhance CTC (If we build the sharpshooter to match Kubikiri, that sharpshooter will be a lot weaker when the perk is in cooldown or not in need. If we use other soldiers to support the Kubiki-sharpshooter, those soldiers start to lose what they are meant to do otherwise). Even then, we have to rely on RNG most of the time

Seeing how most of the pros are easily counter-argued by the cons, I see little reason to choose Kubikiri over Multitargeting (which may increase squad-wise damage expectation relatively high) or Hunter's Instincts (The way I explain to myself about these perks that have +x damage is, it's basically x-tier upgrade to the primary weapon, which is super sweet).

Thoughts?

[Goumindong]

Hunters targeting only applies on flanks, and not on exposed targets. Its very good if you can get yourself to a position where enemies will flank themselves against your sniper, but otherwise not that great. Amazing for snapshot snipers.

Kubikuri seems like its hard to maximize crit... but its really not. Especially if you're built Death From Above.

At that point, base crit will be deadshot+10. Stock +25, =35%. If you have a laser sight as opposed to a scope you will have 50%(which can make sense if you've got naturally high aim).

If you're shooting an exposed target that will be 90%. You only need 10% more crit to near force the auto kill.

[rakoon79]

Hunters targeting only applies on flanks, and not on exposed targets. Its very good if you can get yourself to a position where enemies will flank themselves against your sniper, but otherwise not that great. Amazing for snapshot snipers.

Kubikuri seems like its hard to maximize crit... but its really not. Especially if you're built Death From Above.

At that point, base crit will be deadshot+10. Stock +25, =35%. If you have a laser sight as opposed to a scope you will have 50%(which can make sense if you've got naturally high aim).

If you're shooting an exposed target that will be 90%. You only need 10% more crit to near force the auto kill.

Perhaps I'm still comparing to LW1's GLR Precision Shot sniper. It too was a (semi) one-hit-KO Build with the Mayhem and all the right perks, but it had 2-turn cooldown. The only reason I've built the soldier for a sole perk is that the cooldown was short, and 4-turn cooldown seems.. well, a little underwhelming to me at the moment

[trihero]

+ Theoretically, it can one-kill a tough enemy in a single turn

No, read the description. It says "damaged" enemy. If you one shot an enemy from full hp it has nothing to do with the kubikiri skill itself but your base damage.

In 1.1, it is bugged and doesn't kill targets with armor, so there's no reason to take it currently.

But if it functioned as it says, it simply does something different than the other 2 perks in that row, which is massive single target damage. And like guomindong said, getting a lot of crit is very easy.

elite stock = 25% (set up steady weapon on a prior turn), base plasma lance = 20%, flanking = 40%, aggression is up to 30% based on enemy squad size, what you're already past 100%? Was I even trying that hard? (no laser scope/talon rounds)

None of your cons make any sense whatsoever. All good skill have long cooldown, does that mean we should never learn them? (ironically area targeting has a long cooldown too, so we shouldn't learn it?) If you have a ctc build, is it HURT by learning kubikiri? No, that's not a con. Yeah it's a high level perk that doesn't work too well if you don't work on ctc, you can say the same of rapid targeting, it doesn't work that well either unless you took a bunch of holotarget perks and build a high level holotargeter. I don't even understand your cons to begin with. What's the big deal against kubikiri?

It seems like an ace in the hole versus the advent general on higher difficulties. Use a grenade/rocket to weaken him and expose his cover, then kubikiri what's up dead general in 2 measly moves instead of focus fire + 8 attacks, or flashbang + 2 suppress every turn.

[rakoon79]

+ Theoretically, it can one-kill a tough enemy in a single turn

No, read the description. It says "damaged" enemy. If you one shot an enemy from full hp it has nothing to do with the kubikiri skill itself but your base damage.

Yeaps, I know about that part. I just took it as pretty much given. Over-generalization of me initiating all battles with explosives. Sorry for the confusion up there.

(Unrelated, I just had dejavu writing this comment! chills..)

Anyhooo, some of your calculations don't convince me that much. Plasma weapons are too end-game to consider practicality during the most of the gametime. Plus, since Aggression doesn't work on squadsight, and my sharpshooters tend to stay back. So, from the way I play my sharpshooters, they can't get that bonus properly (note I'm saying this is not applicable to me. I'm not trying to deny the perk Aggression as a whole). Lastly, when I want to use Kubikiri, it's usually already a risky situation, which means I wouldn't have had that extra turn to steady my weapon.

[bingo12345]

This game is about stability. gambling is always bad. reduce failure penalty from 1/2 to 1/3 of damage and we can use Kubikiri.

[trihero]

Anyhooo, some of your calculations don't convince me that much. Plasma weapons are too end-game to consider practicality during the most of the gametime. Plus, since Aggression doesn't work on squadsight, and my sharpshooters tend to stay back. So, from the way I play my sharpshooters, they can't get that bonus properly (note I'm saying this is not applicable to me. I'm not trying to deny the perk Aggression as a whole). Lastly, when I want to use Kubikiri, it's usually already a risky situation, which means I wouldn't have had that extra turn to steady my weapon.

I wish you would check your facts.

Aggresion's ? icon clearly states "units at squad sight do confer bonus." It's not that hard to get +30% from it.

Ok, so if you have coil sniper rifle that's still base 10% + elite stock 25% + flanking 40% = 75%, and aggression can get it to 100% without much effort.

I could toss in talon rounds too considering they're cheap and might as well if you're building crit.

I could also easily toss in officer ability "Get Some" for a +20% crit for your squad for the turn, which seems quite reasonable.

You have failed to convince me that you have any valid concerns about this ability whatsoever.

Stacking crit comes very easily, and it comes with big bonuses to damage and also "pierces" enemy dodge. What is your "thing" against crit builds? And above I wasn't even trying hard to make a crit build at all, those are skills and items I would be wearing (minus talon rounds) anyways.

[rakoon79]

I wish you would check your facts.

Aggresion's ? icon clearly states "units at squad sight do confer bonus." It's not that hard to get +30% from it.

Launched the game to be double-sure, and it does say it does confer bonus. hmm, I swear I've read does not confer bonus the last time I've read the tooltip :\ Something is messing with my head. Because I've read that way, I didn't take aggression for my sharpshooters, hence -30% from the optimized/maximized situation. And I personally don't really take Stocks, so there's that too. So I think that's -55% from your calculation? Which means, I had like ~50% (minus talon as you said), and literal coin flip of 50% obviously doesn't sound too convincing (Possible +x% depending on various perks and what not).

My argument was based on the error I've made that Aggression does not confer bonus, and I've understood the perk is for SnapShot snipers who fight relatively close range, and now I get where you are getting at. I'll give it another go for the next sharpshooter.

[trihero]

Launched the game to be double-sure, and it does say it does confer bonus. hmm, I swear I've read does not confer bonus the last time I've read the tooltip :\ Something is messing with my head. Because I've read that way, I didn't take aggression for my sharpshooters, hence -30% from the optimized/maximized situation. And I personally don't really take Stocks, so there's that too. So I think that's -55% from your calculation? Which means, I had like ~50% (minus talon as you said), and literal coin flip of 50% obviously doesn't sound too convincing (Possible +x% depending on various perks and what not).

If you don't take crit talents, then why would you complain about a skill that requires them to be reliable? I mean there's nothing wrong with not using a stock or aggression, but that would be like me complaining about area targeting sucking because I would have to invest in the other various holo targeter skills. Or that would be like me saying well I don't personally use flashbangs, so the STING perk sucks. I'm just boggled at why you're even bringing up kubikiri to begin with.

[rakoon79]

Launched the game to be double-sure, and it does say it does confer bonus. hmm, I swear I've read does not confer bonus the last time I've read the tooltip :\ Something is messing with my head. Because I've read that way, I didn't take aggression for my sharpshooters, hence -30% from the optimized/maximized situation. And I personally don't really take Stocks, so there's that too. So I think that's -55% from your calculation? Which means, I had like ~50% (minus talon as you said), and literal coin flip of 50% obviously doesn't sound too convincing (Possible +x% depending on various perks and what not).

If you don't take crit talents, then why would you complain about a skill that requires them to be reliable? I mean there's nothing wrong with not using a stock or aggression, but that would be like me complaining about area targeting sucking because I would have to invest in the other various holo targeter skills. Or that would be like me saying well I don't personally use flashbangs, so the STING perk sucks. I'm just boggled at why you're even bringing up kubikiri to begin with.

As I said in the previous comment, I've admitted I read the perk description wrongly, and am willing to give it another shot. I don't see why you are so fired up here.

[trihero]

I think I'm just tired of arguing things that shouldn't be argued, in another thread someone was trying to tell me 70% is reliable when compared to another ability that did the same thing better at 100%. Ok deep breaths, "someone on the internet is wrong." And sure I've been wrong about things too.

[rakoon79]

I think I'm just tired of arguing things that shouldn't be argued, in another thread someone was trying to tell me 70% is reliable when compared to another ability that did the same thing better at 100%. Ok deep breaths, "someone on the internet is wrong." And sure I've been wrong about things too.

Calm down buddy. After all, none of us are fighting to get any prize here, are we? we are all just sharing ideas and views. Take this case for instance, I spoke up and shared my view, you managed to correct my error, I decided to give it another go. In some cases, it wouldn't go that well because people do have different perspectives.

[Valaska]

Kinda pointlessly unreliable to really take it over any other option on any of the skill tree's its on... I guess its okay as an AWC but still, I prefer to reliably do damage than to do a shot that may not do anything at all ontop of the chance to miss etc.

[Ketchup4684]

Without relying on outside modifiers, 10% (base) + 10% (heart perk i forget the name of) + 15% (elite laser sight) + 10% (talon rounds) + 20% (rough guesstimate on average bonus from aggression) + 25% (elite stock steady aim, because you should be steadying aim whenever possible) = average crit range of 90%. Including outside sources, 20% from Get Some, 40% from flanking (though i wouldnt rely on that too much, seeing as you'll prob use this perk on Sectopods and the like), and 20% from a holotargeter sniper with a holotarget mk 3. Totally possible to make Kubikiri work, and even without it, crit snipers are pretty strong. Serial for dayzzz.

[Stroggus]

IMHO Kubikiri just don`t work. I specially maxed out crits on 1 sniper (like talon rounds, laser sight, perks etc) so I can hit crits more or less reliably. But this just doesn`t work.

It don`t proc on targets on which this could really be useful (gatekeepers, sectopods), it only works on trash mobs. Also on big ones shredding chain-shotting (or even cyclic-fireing) gunners just decimates them.

And with regular trash you have this: first of all you need someone to hit targer, and if they hit, the target is probably already half-dead and a standard sniper shot can kill it easily, so no need to Kubikiri.

So all in all there are just no enemies to use Kubikiri for.

Also I hope for some really badass enemies with veeery high health pool or something, because in late game when you have many MSGTs they just wreck EVERYTHING. At first on bad activation and when you see Chrys Queen, Sectopods or Gatekeepers you are like oh jeez. But in the end these things just die so quickly, that`s just not fair.

[The Boz]

Useless lottery skill, worse than Precision Shot. Avoid.

[gimrah]

I think it will be great once it's fixed in 1.2. You need to crit stack your sharp pretty thoroughly but that's very doable. And it then because of the cooldown, there is synergy with Prec Shot, which also benefits from crit stacking.

One disadvantage is that a lot of big targets are hardened / don't have crit bonus against them if flanked or exposed. So it will be hard to get to 100%. But there's still a bunch of ways you can get it very high, including officer perks.

That said, I think hunter's instinct may be the stronger pick with serial, because serial is all about reliable kills and the extra base damage could be a big help. (For similar reasons he'd probably stick with a scope instead of a laser sight too.) A crit-stacked kubikiri sniper is probably better off taking one of the other MSGT perks. Not sure if stock works on second shot of double-tap - if so I'd probably go with that.

[LordYanaek]

Crit stacking could also benefit to the +4 damage perk, turning it to a +6. Does double tap trigger Death from Above or is it only normal shots? Special shots don't trigger the other abilities that allow you to act after firing (LeU, Gunner perk, Close Encounters). If it blocks Death from Above it would probably be better to take the +4 damage and keep the kill-aim chain unbroken.

[Hazelnut]

Hunters targeting only applies on flanks, and not on exposed targets.

That seems dumb. If their's no cover in the way why should it matter if the target is against cover for some other direction? I didn't know that, and it makes all the perks at this rank pretty bad for a dmg sniper IMO.

[gimrah]

Hunters targeting only applies on flanks, and not on exposed targets.

Pretty sure it's flanked and exposed targets against which you would ordinarily get a flanking bonus. So you get it on an exposed trooper but not against enemies that don't use cover like MECs etc.

[gimrah]

Does double tap trigger Death from Above or is it only normal shots?

It should trigger DfA. Watch the distinction in the language: "killing an enemy with your rifle" vs "taking a standard shot". The reference to 'standard' means no ability-based special attacks.

[johnnylump]

Hunters targeting only applies on flanks, and not on exposed targets.

Pretty sure it's flanked and exposed targets against which you would ordinarily get a flanking bonus. So you get it on an exposed trooper but not against enemies that don't use cover like MECs etc.

So the conditions are coded like this:

Code: Select all

if (Attacker.CanFlank() && TargetUnit.CanTakeCover() && VisInfo.TargetCover == CT_None && DamagingAttack)

which should mean that it works on cover-taking units in the open

[LordYanaek]

So the conditions are coded like this:

Code: Select all

if (Attacker.CanFlank() && TargetUnit.CanTakeCover() && VisInfo.TargetCover == CT_None && DamagingAttack)

which should mean that it works on cover-taking units in the open

Did you change the code or is it the vanilla XCom2 code?
Because if it's vanilla, i'm almost sure Hunter's Instinct don't trigger on exposed non activated pods (this is probably green status pods now).
I don't have a save right now to demonstrate this, but i often wondered why sometimes i wouldn't get my Hunter's Instinct bonus and this was my conclusion at the time. Now it was some time ago so maybe this was patched since then.

[johnnylump]

I did rewrite the HI code, but only to make sure flashbangs and other zero damage stuff didn't trigger it.

[Goumindong]

elite stock = 25% (set up steady weapon on a prior turn), base plasma lance = 20%, flanking = 40%, aggression is up to 30% based on enemy squad size, what you're already past 100%? Was I even trying that hard? (no laser scope/talon rounds)

I prefer covert in that slot because it allows you to more easily play assassin missions (you can kill the target, then covert yourself on the same turn if you're DFA) because you don't have to have a position as close to the evac and can even snipe the target from enemy visible locations without much risk.

The bonus crit on Aggression is super nice... but i tend to not have a lot of sharpshooters on the roster because they're only valuable for a few mission types and even then you only need one or two. So the lowered risk on VIP assassination is a big deal for me.

Its still not hard to get 100% though.

Hunters targeting only applies on flanks, and not on exposed targets.

Pretty sure it's flanked and exposed targets against which you would ordinarily get a flanking bonus. So you get it on an exposed trooper but not against enemies that don't use cover like MECs etc.

So the conditions are coded like this:

Code: Select all

if (Attacker.CanFlank() && TargetUnit.CanTakeCover() && VisInfo.TargetCover == CT_None && DamagingAttack)

which should mean that it works on cover-taking units in the open

Might be worth changing the explanitory text. IIRC the bonus didn't work on exposed enemies in vanilla and the text is unchanged. So i figured the ability was as well.