Opinion on Rocketeers

[Ithuriel]

My honest, massive problem with flamethrowers is that they're blocked by every kind of cover so badly... tbh at this point I've basically given up using Technicals (I'm on August 11, and out of ~45 soldiers I have 3 technicals- all officers, all kinda old relics) just because I'm so disappointed in them. I'll take a demolition grenadier any day over a rocket Technical, and I've found that I can usually get a good flamethrower off to open out of concealment, and then... promptly do nothing the rest of the mission.

[Silenus]

Changes I'd like to see to Rocketeers:

Lower scatter (Fire in the Hole scatter reduction increased even more?); an extra conventional rocket (provided perhaps by a perk replacing Tandem Warheads at Staff Sergeant, so you can't dominate the early game with multiple rockets); a buffed Concussion rocket (I like the idea of a low damage, crowd control rocket, but it's far too unreliable at the moment).


Changes I'd like to see to Firemen:

Replace Napalm-X's terrible disorient/stun chance with a +20% to burn chance, making the flamethrower are far more reliable way to disable and burn enemies; replace Phosphorus's ability to damage mechanicals with +1 burn damage to organics (so now 2-4 instead of 1-3); give Roust a higher chance to burn, or even give it the old Napalm X's chance to panic or disorient.

I simply want to double down on what each line of the tree is good for: actually burning things for Firemen, and reliable long-range high-explosive damage for Rocketeers.

[nightwyrm]

Honestly, Fire In the Hole just feels like a perk tax to me. It's a perk you NEED to make any use of one of the Tech's unique features. No other classes has this problem.

[trihero]

Well....no other class has the "problem" of a wide area cover destroying aoe attack either

[nightwyrm]

Well....no other class has the "problem" of a wide area cover destroying aoe attack either

Once a mission, in the early game, if it actually hits what you want it to hit, and brings the rest of the map running to you etc. etc.

There's a lot of drawbacks already to the Tech and she's just completely outclassed as your grenadiers get better.

And I just learned that Blaster Bombs can scatter as well....so yeah...pretty useless.

[trihero]

Well....no other class has the "problem" of a wide area cover destroying aoe attack either

Once a mission, in the early game, if it actually hits what you want it to hit, and brings the rest of the map running to you etc. etc.

There's a lot of drawbacks already to the Tech and she's just completely outclassed as your grenadiers get better.

And I just learned that Blaster Bombs can scatter as well....so yeah...pretty useless.

Why would you need it more than once per mission? I often see this as a complaint but if you have a tool that smooths over the hardest pull, then you don't really need it again. And if you did...bring more technicals?

I wouldn't say completely outclassed whatsoever. Flamethrower ambushes (if you watch xwynns videos) are boss, and super super quiet compared to explosive openings. That's a huge plus that invalidates the "completely outclassed" argument. In addition, grenadier tools require significant investment (each nonfrag grenade costs a core to manufacture, you're somewhat mediocre until you get both volatile mix + advanced nade launcher). I do like grenadiers but they are much more costly to get going.

If you watch joinrbs 0% april supply raid, you will see that his 2 technicals essentially carry it for him, each one hits a rocket that damages and/or kills six out of 8 men in a pod. Grenadiers ain't doing that early in the game.

Sure maybe it's an early game carry class and maybe you prefer to not use it in the later game, but it still has its uses and is much cheaper to maintain then grenadiers.

[nightwyrm]

Well....no other class has the "problem" of a wide area cover destroying aoe attack either

Once a mission, in the early game, if it actually hits what you want it to hit, and brings the rest of the map running to you etc. etc.

There's a lot of drawbacks already to the Tech and she's just completely outclassed as your grenadiers get better.

And I just learned that Blaster Bombs can scatter as well....so yeah...pretty useless.

Why would you need it more than once per mission? I often see this as a complaint but if you have a tool that smooths over the hardest pull, then you don't really need it again. And if you did...bring more technicals?

I wouldn't say completely outclassed whatsoever. Flamethrower ambushes (if you watch xwynns videos) are boss, and super super quiet compared to explosive openings. That's a huge plus that invalidates the "completely outclassed" argument. In addition, grenadier tools require significant investment (each nonfrag grenade costs a core to manufacture, you're somewhat mediocre until you get both volatile mix + advanced nade launcher). I do like grenadiers but they are much more costly to get going.

If you watch joinrbs 0% april supply raid, you will see that his 2 technicals essentially carry it for him, each one hits a rocket that damages and/or kills six out of 8 men in a pod. Grenadiers ain't doing that early in the game.

Sure maybe it's an early game carry class and maybe you prefer to not use it in the later game, but it still has its uses and is much cheaper to maintain then grenadiers.

I've seen xwymns' big zombie fight on K street video where he does flame ambushes. Yeah, his flamer ambush is prety cool, but then his Tech spends the rest of the fight running around trying to not get killed, suppressing here and there and generally not contributing much. I can replicate most flamer openings with Sting grenade openings which is easier to use, in terms of both soldier positioning and area covered. I don't need to blow up cover when half the pod is sitting out in the open Stunned.

I would rather bring a support grenadier with only flashbangs than a demo grenadier with plasma grenades.

[Manifest]

My honest, massive problem with flamethrowers is that they're blocked by every kind of cover so badly... tbh at this point I've basically given up using Technicals (I'm on August 11, and out of ~45 soldiers I have 3 technicals- all officers, all kinda old relics) just because I'm so disappointed in them. I'll take a demolition grenadier any day over a rocket Technical, and I've found that I can usually get a good flamethrower off to open out of concealment, and then... promptly do nothing the rest of the mission.

Really? Flamethrowers? Are you playing on 1.1?

[3tamatulg]

I'm playing on 1.1 and yeah, flamethrowers get blocked by cover all the time.

They're useless. All the risk of getting up in the ayys faces without any of the payoff that a 100% to hit, high crit, close encounters assault has.

The technical is straddling two completely contradictory roles - they're trying to be cavalry and artillery at the same time. They're outclassed as cavalry by assaults and shinobis (and to an extent made terrible in the same way those 2 are by the pod popping mechanics), and outclassed as artillery by grenadiers, gunners, rangers and snipers.

There's no creativity to the perk trees, there's no reason to mix and match at any level.

I'm of the opinion that they should be straight up split into two classes.

[trihero]

I've seen xwymns' big zombie fight on K street video where he does flame ambushes. Yeah, his flamer ambush is prety cool, but then his Tech spends the rest of the fight running around trying to not get killed, suppressing here and there and generally not contributing much. I can replicate most flamer openings with Sting grenade openings which is easier to use, in terms of both soldier positioning and area covered. I don't need to blow up cover when half the pod is sitting out in the open Stunned.

I would rather bring a support grenadier with only flashbangs than a demo grenadier with plasma grenades.

Well at least techs can suppress and tank, grenadiers can't. Once your flashbangs are out, then what?

And again, if you use the tech to ambush properly, he has done plenty of work as is. If you disable the only 8 man pod on the map with one move with one character, then you shouldn't also be able to "contribute much" past that point. The fact that the technical got rid of the most alarming threat on the map cannot be overlooked. And again I think you should watch that 0% supply raid joinrbs posted, where 2 rockets carried the day easily.

At the end of the day you want someone who can take full advantage of concealment ambush, and you want characters who can carry the rest of the fight once that ambush is over. I don't think anyone does both except maybe gunner with sat fire, but that I heard is getting nerfed. Whether you prefer flashbang or frag grenadier over technical is pretty much irrelevant given that the technical has been proven many times to be useful as is.

I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly, do you want a technical to have unlimited rockets, run +gun, and 150% aim so he can contribute more?

[nightwyrm]

I've seen xwymns' big zombie fight on K street video where he does flame ambushes. Yeah, his flamer ambush is prety cool, but then his Tech spends the rest of the fight running around trying to not get killed, suppressing here and there and generally not contributing much. I can replicate most flamer openings with Sting grenade openings which is easier to use, in terms of both soldier positioning and area covered. I don't need to blow up cover when half the pod is sitting out in the open Stunned.

I would rather bring a support grenadier with only flashbangs than a demo grenadier with plasma grenades.

Well at least techs can suppress and tank, grenadiers can't. Once your flashbangs are out, then what?

With Full Kit, one grenadier can take 8 Flashbangs in total. That's enough for one for every pod on a map. He can contribute on the first 8-men pod, and then the one after that, and the one after that...

I don't know how to fix it. I just know that I don't want to take a Tech on my squads on a mission after May. His flamers are hard to use and his rockets are unreliable when I have other options.

[Ithuriel]

To be frank, I don't entirely understand why you're hyping suppression on rocketeers? I generally tend to run SMGs on flamer rocketeers, at the very least, which is more than slightly impractical for suppression. Even if they're not, I'm still pretty wary of suppression with a rifle.... you have to allocate an elite extended magazine to suppress twice in a row if you need to move. Personally, I make my technicals my officers instead.

PS- are suppression reaction shots made with full accuracy? They were in the original LW, but I haven't seen any indications of whether or not this is still true. (I'm also a little wary because the other perk in the game that removed the Overwatch aim penalty is removed in XCOM2; it's replaced with a perk that gives +10 aim and ability to crit, but in any sane situation you lose a lot more than 10 aim due to the 0.7 aim modifier).

PPS- I dunno about you, but my grenadier tanks pretty impressively.

[GavinRuneblade]

I'm playing on 1.1 and yeah, flamethrowers get blocked by cover all the time.

They're useless. All the risk of getting up in the ayys faces without any of the payoff that a 100% to hit, high crit, close encounters assault has.

The technical is straddling two completely contradictory roles - they're trying to be cavalry and artillery at the same time. They're outclassed as cavalry by assaults and shinobis (and to an extent made terrible in the same way those 2 are by the pod popping mechanics), and outclassed as artillery by grenadiers, gunners, rangers and snipers.

There's no creativity to the perk trees, there's no reason to mix and match at any level.

I'm of the opinion that they should be straight up split into two classes.

That's your problem. Bump to 1.2, flames don't ignore cover completely, but pretty close to it. They bypass most cover.

[Ithuriel]

I'm playing on 1.1 and yeah, flamethrowers get blocked by cover all the time.

They're useless. All the risk of getting up in the ayys faces without any of the payoff that a 100% to hit, high crit, close encounters assault has.

The technical is straddling two completely contradictory roles - they're trying to be cavalry and artillery at the same time. They're outclassed as cavalry by assaults and shinobis (and to an extent made terrible in the same way those 2 are by the pod popping mechanics), and outclassed as artillery by grenadiers, gunners, rangers and snipers.

There's no creativity to the perk trees, there's no reason to mix and match at any level.

I'm of the opinion that they should be straight up split into two classes.

That's your problem. Bump to 1.2, flames don't ignore cover completely, but pretty close to it. They bypass most cover.

Wait, 1.2 isn't released yet... also regardless it doesn't affect flamer mechanics afaik, just adds back the +1 range they accidentally lost in 1.1

...wait I've got a suspicion, did 1.1 change flamer mechanics so they're better at avoiding cover? Because I think I mostly gave up on flamers before 1.1 came up. That, plus the fact that they lost range in 1.1, might be why I concluded they were useless. Tbh I actually had a similar conclusion on Iron Curtain- it was 100% blocked by even partial cover, so it was extraordinarily "meh" for me. Weirdly though the one guy I have with it has been a lot more useful lately- now I think about it, I think Iron Curtain uses roughly the same AoE mechanic as flamers, so it might make sense that 1.1 buffed it to being usable.

[JulianSkies]

I'm playing on 1.1 and yeah, flamethrowers get blocked by cover all the time.

They're useless. All the risk of getting up in the ayys faces without any of the payoff that a 100% to hit, high crit, close encounters assault has.

The technical is straddling two completely contradictory roles - they're trying to be cavalry and artillery at the same time. They're outclassed as cavalry by assaults and shinobis (and to an extent made terrible in the same way those 2 are by the pod popping mechanics), and outclassed as artillery by grenadiers, gunners, rangers and snipers.

There's no creativity to the perk trees, there's no reason to mix and match at any level.

I'm of the opinion that they should be straight up split into two classes.

That's your problem. Bump to 1.2, flames don't ignore cover completely, but pretty close to it. They bypass most cover.

Wait, 1.2 isn't released yet... also regardless it doesn't affect flamer mechanics afaik, just adds back the +1 range they accidentally lost in 1.1

...wait I've got a suspicion, did 1.1 change flamer mechanics so they're better at avoiding cover? Because I think I mostly gave up on flamers before 1.1 came up. That, plus the fact that they lost range in 1.1, might be why I concluded they were useless. Tbh I actually had a similar conclusion on Iron Curtain- it was 100% blocked by even partial cover, so it was extraordinarily "meh" for me. Weirdly though the one guy I have with it has been a lot more useful lately- now I think about it, I think Iron Curtain uses roughly the same AoE mechanic as flamers, so it might make sense that 1.1 buffed it to being usable.

1.1 changed how they behave with cover, working around most cover even a fair bit of full cover you need an actual wall to block it. On the other hand the change had an unintended side-effect of reducing their range by one tile, which is getting changed in 1.2

[Ithuriel]

Full cover still blocks the flamethrower for the tile behind it though, right? So if they're in full cover they won't be hit?

....*proceeds to bitch about urban maps with full cover everywhere*

[Manifest]

Full cover still blocks the flamethrower for the tile behind it though, right? So if they're in full cover they won't be hit?

....*proceeds to bitch about urban maps with full cover everywhere*

What? No they're extremely good at piercing high cover now, just not walls. I've never had cover be a problem (only when enemies are too close is it a problem, or when they're too far from accidentally nerfing the range.)

[Ithuriel]

Full cover still blocks the flamethrower for the tile behind it though, right? So if they're in full cover they won't be hit?

....*proceeds to bitch about urban maps with full cover everywhere*

What? No they're extremely good at piercing high cover now, just not walls. I've never had cover be a problem (only when enemies are too close is it a problem, or when they're too far from accidentally nerfing the range.)

...erm. Are we playing different games? I've literally completely given up on Technicals because the flamer is completely useless against anything in high cover, and with the urban maps ADVENT have high cover ~90% of the time :\

[Tuhalu]

...erm. Are we playing different games? I've literally completely given up on Technicals because the flamer is completely useless against anything in high cover, and with the urban maps ADVENT have high cover ~90% of the time :\

You almost certainly haven't played with Flamers since 1.1. It goes right over low cover in all cases now. Also, as long as the flamer cone goes around the edge of a high cover and covers the high cover tile, the flame will lap around and get the guy in high cover.

Firestorm is also glorious for this reason. Just don't stand near anything explosive (like vehicles) while you use it

[Ithuriel]

Completely random side note- does anybody know how the interaction between Lone Wolf and Fleche works? Because I have no idea.

[marco.costa]

"In light of this it simply seems like the technical gauntlet should have two slots that can hold fuel or a rocket interchangeably, instead of forcing Rocketeers to pay for parts of their kit they can't really use."

I really like this, it would appear to fix the problem where the Technical seems to be the only "half class", in the sense that they are forced to carry into battle gear that they aren't specializing in. A grenadier with rapid deployment and defender can choose to just bring utility grenades and vice-versa for heavy ordnance, for example.

That makes me think that ideally the technical could be split into two perk trees, the rocketeer proper and the "Firebat" if you will, so that the perk choices are more meaningful than "your flamethrower/rocket is secondary to this character".

Maybe I just miss having a pretty specific model for a backslung big rocket launcher and flamethrower tank, hmmmm, modders? anyone???