Opinion on Rocketeers

[Manifest]

Rocket Technicals: I would not say Rocketeers are exactly weak in a vacuum, but compared to grenadiers they certainly are, in short because of quantity. I don't think grenadiers are a problem in themselves, with the huge nerfs to explosives (damage falloff, environmental damage, very dangerous alert range), rockets (which trade accuracy for cover destruction, and range for mobility) that deal a modest amount more damage seem to fall short when you can only equip two compared to the typical five of a grenadier.

Even this carrying of two rockets hinges around the use of an exo, and simply replaces the shredder gun, which arguably is equivalent to a rocket, so really it's a comparison between two rockets vs 5 grenades + a shredder charge. (And on the other hand, while a technical can technically equip grenades like any other class, they are very obviously not in the same league as grenadier grenades.)

Then you must consider the other tools a rocketeer has, the concussion and bunker buster. The concussion rocket, to put it mildly, is just a tad awful. 1 damage aside, even the weaker effect of disorientation has to fight against will, which is a very hard defense to crack. Quite commonly if I fire it at pods I'll get one affected, and more typically less than half will suffer any ill effects. This is a one time use item that takes a perk slot, and it's worse than a flashbang in most cases, which you simply need a utility slot for. Not only can it waste your turn but the unreliability dictates you should use it first and account for the result, where this leaves the enemy in a smoke cloud, and you potentially even worse off. It's meant to be a niche item, not optimal for combat, but it should be the best at something right?

The bunker buster is quite fine, but again, compared to combat engineer it's a matter of being outclassed in quantity.

And while this is likely balanced around the access of the technical to the flamethrower, rocketeers are going to be specced that way because they're typically high aim, low mobility. They will have troubles using their flamethrower even with an smg and cannot travel too light since they will likely need defensive items if they're going to get that close. Not to mention they have less consumables and higher aim and therefore need to shoot their primary more, where an smg would suffer. I feel like once an SMG technical runs dry they're totally useless, and they run out much faster than a grenadier.

On the other hand I feel like a flamer technical can still look at their rocket with some value, and can more effectively use all of their kit. (Often I even take fire in the hole over roust for greater impact). And overall I'm relatively satisfied with the power level and stamina of flamers in terms of consumables.


Conclusion and Suggestion
So, ultimately the scarcity of rockets likely stems from the fact that all technicals have flamethrower charges, even if those are not always reliably useful unless focused on. In light of this it simply seems like the technical gauntlet should have two slots that can hold fuel or a rocket interchangeably, instead of forcing Rocketeers to pay for parts of their kit they can't really use. This would allow a base technical to carry two rockets (without fuel), which may be a problem early game, but perhaps the base rocket unit damage could be toned down in return, until the mid game gauntlet II when grenades gain much more damage. This would ultimately result in Rocketeers having a capacity of 3 rockets, a concussion, and a bunker buster, which seems very reasonable compared to 5 combat engineer plasmas+shredder, or a full kit grenadier. Also your specialist with airdrop will support grenadiers more than Rocketeers come to think of it.

Also much more I feel like nobody would call it overpowered or unfair in the slightest if concussion rockets were guaranteed to disorient, like a weaker one time use sting grenade.

PS: I don't think Javelin Rockets is affecting concussion rockets.

[wizard1200]

So, ultimately the scarcity of rockets likely stems from the fact that all technicals have flamethrower charges, even if those are not always reliably useful unless focused on. In light of this it simply seems like the technical gauntlet should have two slots that can hold fuel or a rocket interchangeably, instead of forcing Rocketeers to pay for parts of their kit they can't really use. This would allow a base technical to carry two rockets (without fuel), which may be a problem early game, but perhaps the base rocket unit damage could be toned down in return, until the mid game gauntlet II when grenades gain much more damage.

I think that is a great suggestion, because it makes technicals with rockets and with flamethrowers as useful as grenadiers.

[nightwyrm]

I didn't even realize the Concussion rocket doesn't guarantee disorient until I fired it at someone and dealt that 1 damage and leave the Advent perfectly fine in a smoke cloud.

Glad I'm a cheater and changed the AWC respec time to 0.

[Arcalane]

So, ultimately the scarcity of rockets likely stems from the fact that all technicals have flamethrower charges, even if those are not always reliably useful unless focused on. In light of this it simply seems like the technical gauntlet should have two slots that can hold fuel or a rocket interchangeably, instead of forcing Rocketeers to pay for parts of their kit they can't really use. This would allow a base technical to carry two rockets (without fuel), which may be a problem early game, but perhaps the base rocket unit damage could be toned down in return, until the mid game gauntlet II when grenades gain much more damage.

Not a bad idea, but possibly complex from a code/inventory standpoint.

I think the Gauntlet could stand to take a page from the Grenade Launcher's book too - blast radius/cone size. Rockets are a flat 6 radius across all tiers, and the Flamer is a flat 7x5. This could be shifted down to 5/6/7 for rockets, and 6x4/7x5/8x6 for the flamer; a little less area of effect for the baselines, catches up with 'standard' at the mark2, and gets better for the mark3.

[LordYanaek]

When i first saw the class, i found the concept pretty cool. Then i had my rockets scatter everywere but where i wanted and almost dropped them. Then someone explained how scatter worked and i decided to test a high aim tech rocketeer. After dubious results, here is how i would spec a rocketeer and what i think of it as a class.
"Rocketeer"

• Fire in the Hole. Useful to reduce scatter.
• Fortify or Napalm-X. Yeah, no biggest boom. The variability of rockets with this added randomness means i could easily kill the low health enemies i want to get corpses from and still only barely scratch the big ones. No thanks. Napalm-X could be a defensive tool in case some mean melee guys come at me but i think Fortify would be more useful all over.
• Shredder. High aim so at least let him do something useful with his gun. Don't talk to me of the "give the enemy some cover" rocket, it's worse then hunkering down in the open!
• Tandem Warheads. At least make this rocket useful.
• Fire and Steel. Reliable damage boost rather than 50%, i take it.
• Salvo. So you can still fire after launching the rocket as you probably won't move before.
• Bunker Buster. Yeah, nice one this one.

Equip with an Assault Rifle line weapon, protective gear and a couple spare grenades to benefit from salvo.

Overall he looks like the bastard child of a Grenadier and Ranger/Gunner who will be worse then any of his parents at what he does but can do both. He probably fits mid sized squads better than the full 10 men squads you throw on convoys and 0% infiltration missions and he won't raise your infiltration as much as a grenadier which is good for those 5-6 men squads. He has a big (but loud) pod cracker for when you decide to break concealment and can help you with his gun. Bonus point if you got Sapper as your AWC perk. Overall he's not totally useless, but is in an awkward position, trying to fill several roles in limited size squads without being very good at any of those roles.

[nightwyrm]

I've had some success with taking them on Tower missions where I needed short bursts of very high damage and the close quarters allowed me to use flamers better. But otherwise, meh...

[laestic]

I do sometime yell at rocket scatters yet rockets per se, without scatter, are far too powerful : wide AoE, shredder, cover destroyer, out-of-sight shot with a scout. EXO suit technicals are soooooo powerful with 2 rockets

Technicals and Grenadiers alike are priority targets for the AI, at least they are fired upon more than often. Grenadiers suffer from mobility penalties due to 4 slots while Technical are less impaired.

My only complaint with Technicals lies on the flamethrower : it should guarantee Burning on base flamethrower shot, and higher chance for Roust. More and more I use Technicals as emergency delaying tactic for Burning opponent gives u 1 or 2 more turns to deal with it.

Oh and Concussion Rocket is worthless.

[Devon_v]

I very much like the rocket side of the tree. I will agree that the Concussion Rocket is terible at doing its stated job, but it's fantastic as a general demolition tool, and you get it long before your grenadiers could get the job done. I've used them to inform Firebrand that I disagree with her choice of an ADVENT infested rooftop as a pickup location. Also gravity. ADVENT still isn't a fan of that particular force.

The strength of Javalin Rockets is that even after reveal a Shinobi can spot for the Tech and use the second rocket from the E.X.O. suit to crack a second pod while they're still in patrol formation.

I don't find the shredder cannon to be the equivalent of a rocket at all, the environmental damage on it was tuned WAY down. It's a nice addon for other classes, but not something I'd want over more rockets.

I do take grenades on my Techs, as they benefit from Biggest Booms and give the class even more options.

My Grenadiers are far more useful specializing in the war crimes grenades I find.

[LordYanaek]

I very much like the rocket side of the tree. I will agree that the Concussion Rocket is terible at doing its stated job, but it's fantastic as a general demolition tool, and you get it long before your grenadiers could get the job done.

You can actually destroy cover with a concussion Rocket? Never thought it was possible and never destroyed any cover with them either, but then i quickly stopped using them entirely.

The strength of Javalin Rockets is that even after reveal a Shinobi can spot for the Tech and use the second rocket from the E.X.O. suit to crack a second pod while they're still in patrol formation.

I find that even with good aim, if i fire at maximum vision the scatter becomes horrible so i have avoided trying to fire beyond vision range. Maybe i need a 75 base aim tech or just need to be lucky and get Aim as AWC perk but no tech got it

[Zerikin]

I miss being able to carry extra rockets like we could in LW1. Having a dedicated rocket spec feels lack luster given how few rockets you can get.

[seananigans]

Yeah I was wondering about this claim that concussion rockets are good for cover destruction. After seeing those comments here, I've tried it a couple of times on supposedly easy cover targets like half-cover rocks, and trees, and such, to literally no avail. Not a single thing destroyed, albeit the disorient and stuns did proc, thankfully.

Of note, every time I've used these, the enemy soldiers have rarely registered the defensive bonus of the smoke, despite some/most of them being well within the smoke cloud. Also, I've noticed regardless of that, during my own turn, none of them have seemed to register the cover bonus from the smoke, so I've still been free to continue attacking them.

For instance, after nailing 3 advent with a concussion (and subsequent smoke), two were disoriented and one was stunned. NONE of them had smoke defense bonus for the remainder of my turn. Then, after they had had a turn, the one who was stunned began registering the smoke defensive bonus, as well as a disoriented soldier who simply moved back and forth during his turn. I'm not sure what's going on there, whether it's a bug or what, but I didn't mind it too much.

[nightwyrm]

I very much like the rocket side of the tree. I will agree that the Concussion Rocket is terible at doing its stated job, but it's fantastic as a general demolition tool, and you get it long before your grenadiers could get the job done.

You can actually destroy cover with a concussion Rocket? Never thought it was possible and never destroyed any cover with them either, but then i quickly stopped using them entirely.

Well, even if it does destroy cover, it also gives the enemy the equivalent of low cover....

[JulianSkies]

Yeah I was wondering about this claim that concussion rockets are good for cover destruction. After seeing those comments here, I've tried it a couple of times on supposedly easy cover targets like half-cover rocks, and trees, and such, to literally no avail. Not a single thing destroyed, albeit the disorient and stuns did proc, thankfully.

Of note, every time I've used these, the enemy soldiers have rarely registered the defensive bonus of the smoke, despite some/most of them being well within the smoke cloud. Also, I've noticed regardless of that, during my own turn, none of them have seemed to register the cover bonus from the smoke, so I've still been free to continue attacking them.

For instance, after nailing 3 advent with a concussion (and subsequent smoke), two were disoriented and one was stunned. NONE of them had smoke defense bonus for the remainder of my turn. Then, after they had had a turn, the one who was stunned began registering the smoke defensive bonus, as well as a disoriented soldier who simply moved back and forth during his turn. I'm not sure what's going on there, whether it's a bug or what, but I didn't mind it too much.

I mysteriously remember seeing out deal environmental damage, but the ini indicates concussion deals 1 environmental damage, compare to sapper that adds +3.
Either way i too have noticed that enemies do not benefit from smoke on your turn, which makes that rocket a ways more useful for an aggressive advance.

[gimrah]

Inclined to agree. If I only get 1 rocket I want it to have more oomph. I've had some epic rockets but mainly underwhelming ones. So I think the scatter is ok, the damage falloff is ok, but I want higher max damage potential and possibly bigger radius.

I don't see anything that makes me want to use concussion rocket. It's like a sting grenade but just so much worse if it doesn't guarantee at least some status effect and it gives smoke to the target.

Flamers have their uses but are also often underwhelming. The +1 back to 1.0 range will be good. I kind of think they should get [some of] their damage back too. At the moment, since you can't rely on status effects, I just use the flamethrower like a ghetto grenade.

[Hazelnut]

I respecced most of my techs to flamers, much more useful as long as they have an SMG and can be commanded to help place the flames. Always with fortify as well. I like them but the chance to apply burning seems too low to me, which can easily leave the agressive move you just made as a folly. Rocket is just an extra to me now.

I do still have a rocket spec, and always take the 2nd now with EXO/WAR. Concussion rocket I used once to terrible effect - 1 disorient and all were now harder for me to hit. Now see it's only use as a wierd smoke grenade once squad all have armor so they can shrug off the 1 dmg, but thus far never been that desperate.

[Dwarfling]

If the Concussion Rocket was changed to be just a rocket-propelled flashbang I'd be fine with it.

[Manifest]

I didn't even realize the Concussion rocket doesn't guarantee disorient until I fired it at someone and dealt that 1 damage and leave the Advent perfectly fine in a smoke cloud.

Glad I'm a cheater and changed the AWC respec time to 0.

When you're first playing the game, I don't think it's cheating at all to have instant respec until you understand how good the skills are.

[UraniumOverdose]

Technicals suck. After April I stick the ones I have as haven supports. They are a liability.

[trihero]

I think there's a reason they're extending the flamethrower's range by 1 in the next version, maybe they will feel better then?

[Valaska]

I regret concussion rocket... Thats all I can say lol

[cmdrspyker92]

concussion rockets in general are bad and unrewarding.

[Manifest]

I think there's a reason they're extending the flamethrower's range by 1 in the next version, maybe they will feel better then?

The reason they're extending the range by one was because they accidentally nerfed the range from 1.0. It's not meant to be a buff, but rather a fix.

[Manifest]

Not a bad idea, but possibly complex from a code/inventory standpoint.

I think the Gauntlet could stand to take a page from the Grenade Launcher's book too - blast radius/cone size. Rockets are a flat 6 radius across all tiers, and the Flamer is a flat 7x5. This could be shifted down to 5/6/7 for rockets, and 6x4/7x5/8x6 for the flamer; a little less area of effect for the baselines, catches up with 'standard' at the mark2, and gets better for the mark3.

Yes, I somewhat kept difficulty in mind for my suggestion, and I think it should not be all that different from a soldier getting a heavy weapon slot from an exosuit, but now they get two from base. Although perhaps it actually is too deceptively difficult.

That seems like a fantastic idea, I feel like rockets eventually should be just rather insane showstoppers if they're going to be so rare.

[Manifest]

Grenadiers suffer from mobility penalties due to 4 slots while Technical are less impaired.

Yes, but this is balanced in that grenades can be used after moving without penalty, while rockets suffer an almost insufferable one.

I do sometime yell at rocket scatters yet rockets per se, without scatter, are far too powerful : wide AoE, shredder, cover destroyer, out-of-sight shot with a scout. EXO suit technicals are soooooo powerful with 2 rockets

Compare this with a grenadier: The AOE is quite comparable in the end (not the early game of course), they also shred, with combat engineer they can destroy cover very well, and in exchange you'll likely get 5, (and often you'll have a specialist anyways, so sometimes seven). And yes, I'd say Javelins are the one saving grace of technicals right now, but I'd still say it doesn't account for all the others by itself.

[Valaska]

concussion rockets in general are bad and unrewarding.

If LongWar didn't mess with melee accuracy so badly then there could possibly be a great use for them. I've used 100% accuracy swords mod for awhile now which with LongWar doesn't even assure its 100% accuracy xD I still get 68% and that's with a HUGE accuracy boost.

But yeah if the melee accuracy was higher with reaper, then concussion rockets could be a glorious piece of synergy.