Hacking

[The Boz]

Why is it that only Specialists (and, to a lesser extent, Shinobis and SPARKs) gain any appreciable Hacking skill increases? Why block 70% of the classes from hacking vans, jails, and skulljacking?

[fowlJ]

The same reason Specialists don't shoot twice per turn, use Area Suppression, or fire rockets. Hacking is their 'thing' - you bring them on a mission in part to use that feature of the class, in the same way as you bring any other class to use their special features.

[The Boz]

Disagree with both explanation and simile. What you just said is close to "Aim is what Sharpshooters do" or something.
I don't want anyone to Haywire MECs, I just want them to not auto-fail skulljacks, and maybe sometimes get me something nice when opening a door.

[fowlJ]

Well... aim is what Sharpshooters do. It is not exactly the same, in that aim is a general soldier ability that some classes happen to be better at, rather than something that is (and always has) been pretty much a Specialist exclusive, but 'shoot stuff better than classes that don't shoot stuff good' is a Sharpshooter class feature.

[GavinRuneblade]

Shinobi don't use sniper rifles and specialists don't have grenade launchers. Classes have advantages and disadvantages. If you really want you can equip a hack pcs and skulljack for bonuses to their hacking stat.

[foreverdead]

This mod might not be exactly what you're after but after awhile anyone can build up a decent hack skill.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =hack+plus

[Sir_Dr_D]

Shinobi don't use sniper rifles and specialists don't have grenade launchers. Classes have advantages and disadvantages. If you really want you can equip a hack pcs and skulljack for bonuses to their hacking stat.

And a specialist is the only one who can use a gemlin, do remote hacking, taking over droids, and a lot of other things. The gremlin is comparable to the marksmans sniper rifle, or the rangers ability to shoot twice. But just like every unit can in fact effectively shoot a gun, more character classes should be able to hack. It makes things slightly inbalanced otherwise. Due to so many bonuses being possible from successful hacks, it makes the specialist too vital to almost all missions. If you don't have a sniper you can make do and use other strategies. But if you don't have the specialist, there is nothing else that can compensate. The whole campaign would be weakened because we don't get the bonus hacking awards.

The hack skill also seems a bit weird and out of place. It jumps up by 40 when the specialist is first promoted, which makes the initial starting value seem pointless. And it is only used by one character class, but for some reason every class has that stat anyway.

I myself changing the ini files so that on character generation the average hack value is at 20(+ or - 10) , and on specialtist promotion it only jumps 25. Every class gains at least a little but of hacking per level, with gunners and infanty the lowest, and shenobi and technical almost as high as specialists. It makes the hacking value seem at least somewhat relevant for everybody, and for me makes things more interesting and balanced. And it makes the hack stat look less out of place. (If a character only has a hack of 7, why even have the hack score?) It is still easiest though to use the specialist for hacking most of the time, as remote hacking is just so darn useful. The specialist can do it so much safer. But at least there are other options. Losing your specialists wouldn't mean losing the campaign.

[LordYanaek]

(If a character only has a hack of 7, why even have the hack score?)

Because if you don't (or if it's at 0 as was possible in 1.0), you can't even open a door for the main objective of a mission and you really need a specialist in every guerilla mission rather than want one.
Otherwise, i somewhat agree that specialists are a must for me in about any squad, but at the same time i don't really see someones mostly training his shooting skill being able to also efficiently hack high security advent installations
Shinobis already get some hacking bonuses making them an alternative to specialists when you want to go really stealthy. Techs could be another class with some hacking skill seeing they are somewhat like combat engineers but i don't think everybody should have good chances at gaining high tier rewards otherwise Specialists wouldn't be very useful (similar to how Shinobis would suddenly look really week if everyone could have phantom and concealment).
There are advantages to bringing a Shinobi for hacking if you want to be stealthy, the advantage of the specialist is better chances to gain additional rewards. Having hacking on techs would probably not be terribly useful as you would probably bring a shinobi or specialist anyway but why not, it certainly wouldn't break the game.

[The Boz]

This mod might not be exactly what you're after but after awhile anyone can build up a decent hack skill.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =hack+plus

What? How does "successful hacking" help classes that have a bad hack score, and don't have access to over two thirds of the hacking opportunities?

[The Boz]

Shinobi don't use sniper rifles and specialists don't have grenade launchers. Classes have advantages and disadvantages. If you really want you can equip a hack pcs and skulljack for bonuses to their hacking stat.

Hack PCS + Skulljack on a MSGT Ranger = LCPL Specialist hack. You will *never* succeed at a door, van, or skulljack with that.
Brilliant comment.

[LordYanaek]

Hack PCS + Skulljack on a MSGT Ranger = LCPL Specialist hack. You will *never* succeed at a door, van, or skulljack with that.
Brilliant comment.

And why should he? He's spending his days firing on sectoid dummies, do you think he have time to learn how to crack advent security protocols?
That he can simply open an electronically locked door is incredible and probably it's thanks to Shen who installed an easy "push this button to open locked doors" app on their tablet.

[The Boz]

Hack PCS + Skulljack on a MSGT Ranger = LCPL Specialist hack. You will *never* succeed at a door, van, or skulljack with that.
Brilliant comment.

And why should he?

Because it makes specialists *mandatory*.
By your logic, why should a specialist be able to fire a gun? And not just fire, but be the best overwatch frontliner in the game.

[wei270]

maybe every other class can gain 1 or 2 points of hacking per level it would still put them fall below specialist, ninja, and robots. And it make us fell better about it lol

[Jacke]

This mod might not be exactly what you're after but after awhile anyone can build up a decent hack skill.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =hack+plus

This mod does that for Hacking and similar improvement for other stats.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =627264819

[LordYanaek]

Because it makes specialists *mandatory*.
By your logic, why should a specialist be able to fire a gun? And not just fire, but be the best overwatch frontliner in the game.

No, they are not. They are highly desirable if you want the bonus rewards, but they are not mandatory. They would be if other soldiers had 0 hacking and were unable to finish the main objective.
I'm not opposed to a small increase of hacking for everyone, but would you feel better if your Ranger had 15% chance of gaining the additional rewards rather than 3%? How much would you need to not feel like you have to take a specialist? 50%, a good shinobi can have this for easy rewards. More? that would totally remove the specialist specialty!

And they are not the best overwatchers, Ranger are, but that's another story.

[The Boz]

85-90% of a Specialist's hacking stat before skulljack or gremlin buffs sound like a good number for me. Even with this, the other classes will still never be able to hack turrets, drones, MECs, or do so at a distance. All it does is make data objectives, vans, and doors more accessible to other classes. Call it a QOL buff.
The specialist's specialty is not hacking everything, that's like saying Sharpshooter's specialty is killing everything. A point you keep either ignoring or intentionally misunderstanding to ridiculous levels.
And no, rangers do not make better overwatchers.

[Clibanarius]

One specific class having the sole access to ranged hacking and feasibly acquiring the rewards from unlocking objective chests and doors makes sense when that class is otherwise a supporter who generally specs in heals and doubles as an officer.

[The Boz]

One specific class having the sole access to ranged hacking and feasibly acquiring the rewards from unlocking objective chests and doors makes sense when that class is otherwise a supporter who generally specs in heals and doubles as an officer.

I agree, as far as *ranged* hacking goes.
But what exactly is lost by allowing other classes to marginally succeed at the occasinal skulljack or door hack? Without a gremlin and a PCS, they'll ~never grab the 2nd reward, but might be capable of grabbing the 1st...

[Clibanarius]

Yes. It's why you have the hacking specialist class around.

[LordYanaek]

85-90% of a Specialist's hacking stat before skulljack or gremlin buffs sound like a good number for me.

And that sounds way too much for me. If you want to have Hack progression spread out through classes it probably shouldn't be higher then 60% of the specialist (best) progression for the worst hacking classes. This would bring Hacking in line with Aim as the best progression (sharpshooter) is 28 while the worst progression is 16 (ignoring Psi who are even worse!), slightly less then 60%. This would already bring everyone to shinobi level which seems a lot for a very specialized activity. Remember we are talking about cracking government grade security protocols!

The specialist's specialty is not hacking everything, that's like saying Sharpshooter's specialty is killing everything.

Well, unless you build them as holotargetters, killing everything is the Sharpshooter's specialty

A point you keep either ignoring or intentionally misunderstanding to ridiculous levels...

And what you keep ignoring is that despite what you pretend, anyone can already hack a mission objective so i really don't see the issue. What you really want is for everyone to get the bonus rewards so why not ask that every soldier has phantom and concealment so you don't need a shinobi to grab the timed loot without risking activating another pod? Why not give everyone +25 aim (90% of a sharpshooter) so you don't need a sharpshooter to kill troopers behind full cover? Why not give everyone sapper and combat engineer so you don't need a grenadier to blow cover (they still wouldn't be able to launch their grenades far away so that's fine is it not?)
None of those are required to win a mission, and a specialist isn't required to win any hack mission either.
Skulljacking is a fair point, door hacking is not. For those skulljacking attempts where you need to get close, it seems like a shinobi would be the best choice anyway and they already get some decent hacking.

As i said, i'm not opposed to a small change in Hacking progression. For one specialists could gain less from their first level and gain some improvements from perks so an overwatch specialist Specialist wouldn't be as good at hacking everything as a specialized Combat hacker but that would require rebalancing of the Medic and Overwatch trees to stay competitive. However dumping everyone to similar hack levels wouldn't be a good change and certainly not a simple QoL one as a significant part of the specialist role and attractiveness in a squad is to give you those bonus rewards somewhat reliably.

And no, rangers do not make better overwatchers.

Which one is the best is debatable, i'll give you that, but they do make great overwatchers too.

Looks like we won't come to an agreement so i for one agree to disagree and will leave it as is, but i doubt the developers will change hacking to what you suggest so you should either accept the loss of those bonus rewards when you don't have a specialist (yes, it's painful when you miss an enemy protocol or large alloy cache, but it won't prevent you from winning the campaign), or edit the hacking progression of all classes for yourself.
Starting stats are in XComGameData_CharacterStats.ini while class progression on level-up is in XComClassData.ini, search for eStat_Hacking in those files and change them to what you want. Ultimately it's your game so if you prefer to play it with full hackers squads, do it.

[8wayz]

In my humble opinion you are getting greedy. You have one class specialised in Hacking and one with reasonable progression.

I have an Assault with 10 hacking and sometimes he can get a good 10 % for the first reward. I consider that more than enough for someone who has no idea of cyberware and security protocols.

What I would like to see further down the road is more point to hack as well as more tactical rewards, no just Geoscape bonuses.

As it has been noted, you can easily edit the Hacking starting skill and progression of all classes if you want to be playing with cyberninja team.

[The Boz]

This would bring Hacking in line with Aim as the best progression (sharpshooter) is 28 while the worst progression is 16 (ignoring Psi who are even worse!), slightly less then 60%.

Note that that is *progression*, not the final value. The final value of the lowest end is ~80% of the value of the highest.

Well, unless you build them as holotargetters, killing everything is the Sharpshooter's specialty

Yeah. So why let anyone kill anything? They're only steping on the Sharpshooter's toes by doing so...

And what you keep ignoring is that despite what you pretend, anyone can already hack a mission objective so i really don't see the issue.

The issue is that, unless you for some reason don't want rewards, specialists are mandatory on ~all missions. In fact, with the class and mission design as is right now, I'd be pretty comfortable in stating that a team full of specialists is the most sure-fire approach to any mission, with no strategic downsides.

What you really want is for everyone to get the bonus rewards so why not ask that every soldier has phantom and concealment so you don't need a shinobi to grab the timed loot without risking activating another pod? Why not give everyone +25 aim (90% of a sharpshooter) so you don't need a sharpshooter to kill troopers behind full cover? Why not give everyone sapper and combat engineer so you don't need a grenadier to blow cover (they still wouldn't be able to launch their grenades far away so that's fine is it not?)
None of those are required to win a mission, and a specialist isn't required to win any hack mission either.

You're, again, stretching my point to ridiculous levels. Specialists can hack things *at a distance*, and can hack drones, turrets, robots, etc. That remains untouched. Hacking is the only place where anyone else has ~no capability at all. Sneaking around? Everyone starts concealed, and Phantom and Ghostwalk and Conceal are available to several classes and the AWC. So, everyone already has access to a significant portion of the Shinobi's *thing*. Sharpshooters are the best at aiming, but everyone already has access to a significant portion of the sharpshooter's *thing*. Grenadiers can be built to knock down cover, but everyone has access to the shaped charge item, etc.

Skulljacking is a fair point, door hacking is not.

Saying something (over and over and over again) doesn't make it so.

For those skulljacking attempts where you need to get close, it seems like a shinobi would be the best choice anyway and they already get some decent hacking.

Shinobi still has excellent skulljacking ability due to *some* hacking progression (even though it sucks, as they don't get any level 1 "bump"), and excellent positioning and mobility. It's somewhat redundant, though, while it could give a lot of alternative play to many other classes by giving them a highly situational charge-kill option.

As i said, i'm not opposed to a small change in Hacking progression.

But "small" (as in, below 60% total ability) translates into 0% to succeed at any reward. Hacking difficulty just works like that. It's not linear like aim.

Which one is the best is debatable, i'll give you that, but they do make great overwatchers too.

Yeah, they're pretty good at it, but people really overestimate Rapid Reaction, whereas Sentinel is flat-out better.

...either accept the loss of those bonus rewards when you don't have a specialist (yes, it's painful when you miss an enemy protocol or large alloy cache, but it won't prevent you from winning the campaign), or edit the hacking progression of all classes for yourself.

Already done that. Everyone gets an initial bump of 30, and another 4 at every level. Shinobis and SPARKs get 5 per level instead. It's been working out pretty well, honestly.

[Randal Miser]

As someone suggested, the mod Hacking Plus is the answer to all your problems here.

The alternative if you want, is to manually tweak the hacking gain per class in the XComClassData file under 844674609\Config (the number being Long War 2's workshop directory).
You'll be looking for the

Code: Select all

aStatProgression= 

value under each class, and will want to add

Code: Select all

(StatType=eStat_Hacking,StatAmount=40),

To each rank/initial promotion as you wish (with 40 being replaced with whatever value you want obviously, this string is just directly taken off of the Specialist tree, use it as reference).
The change is not retroactive however, so you wont get bonus hacking for levels you have already gained.

This mod might not be exactly what you're after but after awhile anyone can build up a decent hack skill.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =hack+plus

What? How does "successful hacking" help classes that have a bad hack score, and don't have access to over two thirds of the hacking opportunities?

Failed hacking in Hacking Plus gives +1 hacking stat.
Meaning that if you hack doors and junk frequently the value will eventually add up, especially for Shinobis.
Even more so when you consider that they'll sometimes succeed regardless of their hack skill, because of how rng and backwards the hacking mechanic and how its rolls work.

It's a good mod, no harm in grabbing it fam.

[GavinRuneblade]

And what you keep ignoring is that despite what you pretend, anyone can already hack a mission objective so i really don't see the issue.

The issue is that, unless you for some reason don't want rewards, specialists are mandatory on ~all missions. In fact, with the class and mission design as is right now, I'd be pretty comfortable in stating that a team full of specialists is the most sure-fire approach to any mission, with no strategis downsides.

Actually, there are a few doors and crates that have no fail condition, or no significant fail condition. You can have someone try safely on those. I have had a few opportunities to claim the small rewards with shinobis this way.

I really do wish skulljacks gave a higher bonus though, and/or the pcs.

[8wayz]

Well, rewards are not mandatory, there are just a bonus. Like the Dark VIP mission - if you capture him, good on you, but nobody is forcing your hand.

Not bringing a Specialist and just bumping everyone else's stat has an obvious downside - you can not hack the Security Towers, which do give you good Geoscape rewards. I got a big Intel cache (40 Intel) from my last Security Tower hack during a Data Link defence mission.

Security Towers can be found on almost any map, while hacking objectives are present only in select few missions.

You will be shooting yourself in the foot if you do not have a Specialist on most missions, even just for the healing.