Why I stopped LW2 - but thanks for everything

[Kitkun]

I had an absolutely brutal fight (Admittedly on rookie) in which my team killed a full 50 aliens. I had a high-level officer use up all their interventions, but still left on the last possible turn with another 20 aliens coming at me. That's when I learned that yes, reinforcements are infinite.

And another fight that pitted a four-man squad against 34 enemies, with no timer. I still only won that one because turrets apparently don't stop the mission from ending in victory. That's when I learned that infiltration amount makes a big difference.

So yeah, I've gotten some pretty epic firefights in LW2.

[mmCion]

I also join in saying thanks for LW2. I understand it just came out and can change. I've already started and died on several campaigns. I'm at plasma weapons (so late game) on my current campaign.

I agree with issues like very large maps on extract VIP that you barely make it out in time with stealth and dashing, and with some other points mentioned here.

However, the biggest down thing for me that contributed to me deciding to take a break was the constant missions that do not make me feel like progressing, or have little returns.

In LW1 almost every mission had the potential to benefit your campaign, be it always corpses, and some additional effects like alloys. Abductions gave money, UFOs gave materials, etc. Terror missions were the outlier, but gave corpses and were usually restricted to 1 a month.

In my LW2 campaigns there are so many missions that make me feel like I'm gaining nothing, but on many I have to do them (yes i know I dont have to do all missions, I dont, but please follow my thoughts). Haven activity defense (intel, supply, recruit), any extract mission (defend data taps, hacks, destroy relays, vip, etc), Avenger defense, tower raid, and other missions give no corpses. Unmask faceless, any extract mission, tower raid, defend havens, and others give no materials. Some of these missions give nothing. Basically it feels like a lot of missions give no benefit but are needed to maintain your current status. I understand the "resistence" theme, but I like a sense of progression, and I feel like too many missions provide no real benefit. Some of these little to no gain "maintain" missions are fine, but I would like the frequency of those missions to come down a bit.

I loved LW because it really put you against a vastly superior enemy and every mission got you a baby step closer to your objective. I like LW 2 because it has no path set in stone to win, other than adapt to your situation, but i dont love LW2 because so many mission, on a strategic perspective, feel stale.

PS: I LOVE Coil guns

[nightwyrm]

Further to this, I present the ADVENT Vehicle missions. Either rescue VIP or loot container. VIP versions have fixed evac and a hard deadline of 12 turns, the other has evac by flare and a recover-by deadline of 8 turns. Even at Extremely Light Vulnerable they will have 1 or 2 pods lurking around the vehicle. If there's not enough time before the deadline, can only send 3 or less troops and will need to do fast and furious stealth hit-and-run. Need to scout out the pods and around the vehicle pronto. Unless ADVENT conveniently groups together at the right moment for the Grenadier or Technical, I suspect the best way to do these is to smoke the truck and flashbang the pod and either get the VIP or the MacGuffin and go. Some fighting is necessary but with luck have been done by a single Shinobi. If there's enough time, can sometimes manage 4 or 5 soldiers with an infiltration of 100% or more; then possible to kill all the pods if they are close enough to investigate but don't all arrive together.

This is pretty much how I play the free people from truck missions. One Spec or Shinobi to open the truck. One support Grenadier to Sting grenade everything around the truck. One officer to Command and Oscar Mike everyone to the evac.

Some people complain that the alpha strike gameplay of Vanilla is like a chess puzzle. I feel this type of smash and grab gameplay is even more so.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Another thing that is important is how well the strategic game is played. And that can be difficult as their are very little guidelines on what the different mission types mean. One thing that is important is knowing when and how many guys to put on intel. If you just have a few guys on intel in a haven you will only get missions with not much time to do them. You will only be able to field small squads in the mission. lf you have too many guys on intel, you don't make enough supplies. Knowing the balance is crucial. (One thing I am trying is not splitting a haven between between supply and intel. I have havens specialize.) If you don't do the strategic part right, the tactical battles can be close to impossible. And the first instinct people would have is to blame the tactical game for being too hard. If the strategic is done wrong it is hard to tell.

However, the biggest down thing for me that contributed to me deciding to take a break was the constant missions that do not make me feel like progressing, or have little returns.

I can understand that feeling. In longwar 1 you almost gain supplies/money. With supplies you can then buy something and get cooler stuff. You always do get rewards in longwar 2. It is just that what you usually get is intel. And you can't buy anything with intel. In the end intel is important and gets you things. it allows you to get new havens, which eventually will give you new supplies. But you have to build the haven up first. So it is a long time before intel gets you anything tangible. So we get delayed gratification for everything. But still, I have learned to get excited about intel, the most important resource in the game.

[Jacke]

I can understand that feeling. In longwar 1 you almost gain supplies/money. With supplies you can then buy something and get cooler stuff. You always do get rewards in longwar 2. It is just that what you usually get is intel. And you can't buy anything with intel. In the end intel is important and gets you things. it allows you to get new havens, which eventually will give you new supplies. But you have to build the haven up first. So it is a long time before intel gets you anything tangible. So we get delayed gratification for everything. But still, I have learned to get excited about intel, the most important resource in the game.

This is why I play with reasonable mods that provide more rewards, Extract Corpses for one. It's risky to run Bodysnatcher tactics but then I'm not waiting for the next special mission that leaves XCOM controlling the field after the battle. On fighting missions, I can usually pull out 2 or 3 from the last pod killed near the evac. And with more resources, I should be able to fight more often and get a better balance between stealth and fighting.

Speaking of brutal missions, I now think among the worst is the Extract VIP mission, where your squad and the VIP are unconcealed (except for those who have Phantom like Shinobi). It's mostly an exercise in frustration to try to stealth guide those unconcealed. And I don't think it would be easy to fight either within the 12 turn limit. More at this topic.

http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 16&t=24659

[dodger]

I don't really think the purpose of stealth in the base game or long war is so you can avoid all combat in missions. If you are able to stealth though a large number of missions, you are finding exploits that weren't intentional. In other words you are just getting too good at stealth.

I had this thought this weekend when I sent 3 rookies to rescue three resistance contacts from cells and ended up opening the cells and getting everyone to Evac and I never even _SAW_ any advent or aliens, only heard them in the distance.

It was one of the urban maps with tall buildings and good rooftops though so I was able to really control lines of site using the buildings, the map edge, and running across roofs while staying away from the edge of the roof.

[Icreatedthisforyou]

I feel like a lot of these complaints about stealth are from people that never reached mid game (which is 2 months if you are quick, but roughly 3 months in).

When you start getting close to liberating your first region you are going to have troop column and supply raids. You are going to have retaliation missions. You have the relay and HQ missions.

Your next regions you are going to have a lot more advent focus quicker, you are going to have dark events that make stealthing harder, you are going to have higher enemy counts AND you are going to have the tools and equipment to fight things out with only 4-6 soldiers, which can do most missions within the infiltration time. At this point in the game you often opt into the fight for the experience and that it is less risky to just fight through the aliens then it is to stealth it. You only really keep stealthing missions because you usually have a shinobi or two and a specialist or two that are sitting idle and because the rewards are pretty juicy for minimal risk and take little time. It takes maybe 10 minutes to do a stealth mission and if it isn't possible you just bail out nothing lost, because at this point in the game 75% of your missions are fighting and only 25% or so are stealth. Those stealth missions exist only because you have someone that can do them, it is basically free rewards, and a change of pace from fighting things out is nice. Otherwise you just came off a set of brutal missions and your A (and sometimes B team) are pretty beat up and running a couple stealth missions is both a nice change of pace and they give you a week or two of productivity while your squads get back into fighting shape.


I agree the early game stealth missions are too frequent. It is a combination of two things. First stealth is the optimal strategy early on, same reward with minimal risk of someone getting hurt, just like OW crawl in LW1 was often the optimal strategy. In other words frequently YOU OPT into the stealth, you could easily have 50-75% of your first missions be fighting, it isn't optimal though so you don't. Just like you COULD play aggressive in LW1, but the crawl was a more optimal strategy so you choose not to play aggressive. Second, there are some missions early on that your ONLY choice is stealth or skip it. It is really hard to pass up those early missions though so it feels bad.



The bottom line is I would say by the time you finish a LW2 campaign probably about 75% of the missions you run will have been missions involving a fight. Unfortunately the bulk of those 25% stealth missions come in the first two months, that is something I think needs to be smoothed out, but anyone that thinks LW2 is MOSTLY stealth, hasn't made it out of the early game.

[Jacke]

I've had those almost-never-saw-ADVENT missions too. On the large maps, just running from ingress to the jail to the evac can take most of the time limit.

It was one of the urban maps with tall buildings and good rooftops though so I was able to really control lines of site using the buildings, the map edge, and running across roofs while staying away from the edge of the roof.

Be careful about using the rooftops in LW2, especially if you couldn't see up there before climbing up. Solo Drones like to hang out there. Just one in the wrong place can blow your concealment and force a mission abort.

[Sir_Dr_D]

In the first few months I set all rebels in the starting haven to intel, and scan the area with the avenger as much as possible. The other havens I set to mostly recruit and supply and one on intel, until they are built to their max. Most missions that way gives you 9 hours. You can field large squads, at greater then %100 intel . That way I have found as long as the ambush in the first pod goes well, you can fight your way through the level and still have lots of time left on the timer. (at the second level of difficulty anyway) That is great for collecting lots of weapon mods too.

And about the drones on the roof, yeah, I just had a disaster recently because of one of those annoying things. Another time a battle went badly when I ran into an annoying civilian.

[umie214]

I had an absolutely brutal fight (Admittedly on rookie) in which my team killed a full 50 aliens. I had a high-level officer use up all their interventions, but still left on the last possible turn with another 20 aliens coming at me. That's when I learned that yes, reinforcements are infinite.

And another fight that pitted a four-man squad against 34 enemies, with no timer. I still only won that one because turrets apparently don't stop the mission from ending in victory. That's when I learned that infiltration amount makes a big difference.

So yeah, I've gotten some pretty epic firefights in LW2.

hey man, this was my exact same experience. I completed my first run on Rookie and I've had some unforgettable fights where I slaughtered 40+ enemies with 5-6 soldiers.

sorry to sound like a broken record, but i'll keep repeating: the stealth mechanic is entirely optional. just get True Concealment and you can manfight through every single mission. Well, almost. sometimes you just gotta grab the objective and evac. But again, you can do that without stealthing.

The bottom line is I would say by the time you finish a LW2 campaign probably about 75% of the missions you run will have been missions involving a fight. Unfortunately the bulk of those 25% stealth missions come in the first two months, that is something I think needs to be smoothed out, but anyone that thinks LW2 is MOSTLY stealth, hasn't made it out of the early game.

at least 75%. for me it was closer to 90% with True Concealment. i fought Advent from the get-go, which leveled up my soldiers very quickly and made the campaign extremely fun.

[Jacke]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but i'll keep repeating: the stealth mechanic is entirely optional. just get True Concealment and you can manfight through every single mission. Well, almost. sometimes you just gotta grab the objective and evac. But again, you can do that without stealthing.

A lot matters on the difficulty and/or the mission. On Legendary in the Extract VIP mission, even with True Concealment, you don't get concealment on the VIP or those of the Squad without Phantom and the clock is counting down from the start. And getting to the evac without concealment is tough on maps with only 2 enemy pods and 8 enemy. Trying to send a fighting squad on this one will just get them killed.

[Surrealistik]

Stealth is pretty indispensable, at least early on, for Legend; those reinforcements get real insane real fast.

Really wish there were secondary objectives like a com relays/towers you could hack or destroy to substantially delay them. Take out their local power grid/comms to isolate, then throw down with the tactical combat. Meanwhile, reinforcements are made truly overwhelming and a soft lose condition; a rising tide that you can only hold off for a brief period.

[xmd1997]

I don't really think the purpose of stealth in the base game or long war is so you can avoid all combat in missions. If you are able to stealth though a large number of missions, you are finding exploits that weren't intentional. In other words you are just getting too good at stealth.

I had this thought this weekend when I sent 3 rookies to rescue three resistance contacts from cells and ended up opening the cells and getting everyone to Evac and I never even _SAW_ any advent or aliens, only heard them in the distance.

It was one of the urban maps with tall buildings and good rooftops though so I was able to really control lines of site using the buildings, the map edge, and running across roofs while staying away from the edge of the roof.

I honestly think it was never the LW Devs design intention for a lot of the early missions to be stealth-ed so easily in the first place(Just simply make it viable), I mean its not like they've significantly changed the concealment mechanic, Its still exactly like vanilla, all they did was just removed the fact that enemies knew exactly where you were during concealment. It's ironic also, because during Vanillas first months release release a lot of people complained about that aspect of the game(Impossible to stealth missions), now im starting to understand a little why Fire-axis made it that way in the first place.

[Aetherlift]

I also am finding stealth to be like, too optimal? Some people are saying its an early game thing, but I'm at plasma weapons and it seems like most routine missions are likely to be stealthable or mostly stealthable (where you maybe fight one pod, and then maybe hunker down against another pod for one turn until evac comes), even with a 6 man team. And doing it that way seems very much encouraged, because the timers and the yellow alert mechanics make it extremely scary to try to actually fight the aliens with anything less than my full MSGT squad than can wipe out pods in one turn. I've been bringing combat squads in case stealth doesn't work, and usually just wish I'd brought a 2 man stealth team instead. I consider stealthing blacksites almost mandatory, ever since I had a "suddenly, 8 man reinforcement pods every single turn!!" moment, I'm assuming facility assault missions are the same way so I do them stealth too. But like, stealth in XCOM is boring? It's not invisible inc, which is designed to be played with stealth, and has lots of mechanics for making that fun. I feel like the optimal strategy shouldn't be something that involves only interacting with like 1% of the game's mechanics. I almost feel like carefully managing what maps areas you do and don't have vision of and all the risks and rewards associated with interacting with that system in LW1 was a more interesting form of stealth?

[trihero]

When you start to wander into level 8+ advent strength, the middle man 5-6 tactics even for the routine low level guerilla ops/lib missions become impossible with the huge pods and hp sinks and they're starting to hit you even through high cover, while you're trying to fight the 8/12 turn timer. Bringing noisy rockets only makes those situations worse. Spending intel to raise the timer isn't an option given how scarce intel is to get to begin with (and gets increasingly risky to get a hold of later in the game).

[dodger]

I've had those almost-never-saw-ADVENT missions too. On the large maps, just running from ingress to the jail to the evac can take most of the time limit.

It was one of the urban maps with tall buildings and good rooftops though so I was able to really control lines of site using the buildings, the map edge, and running across roofs while staying away from the edge of the roof.

Be careful about using the rooftops in LW2, especially if you couldn't see up there before climbing up. Solo Drones like to hang out there. Just one in the wrong place can blow your concealment and force a mission abort.

Yeah I had scouted around the roof pretty well before I went up on it. It was a blue move not a dash so if I'd found a drone there pretty sure my rookies could have handled it.

[cmdrspyker92]

Personally, I've had to pick up true concealment to balance out the constant frustration with timers vs big pods. And even then, the resource grind really makes me he head desk sometimes.

[Jacke]

Personally, I've had to pick up true concealment to balance out the constant frustration with timers vs big pods. And even then, the resource grind really makes me he head desk sometimes.

There are mods that allow you to get more resources in a reasonable way. I mentioned one above, Extract Corpses. More details below. They can finance a more violent strategy.

VIPs Grab Loot Installed, not tested
VIPs can go pick up loot.

Gremlins Grab Loot Installed, not tested
Gremlins can go pick up loot. Rather powerful. Of course, no Specialist or SPARK, no Gremlin.

Extract Corpses Installed, tested carry evac
XCOM can already carry out their unconscious, wounded, and dead comrades, so they should be able to carry similar weight enemy unconscious and corpses to the evac.

I adjust its INI to exclude carrying large aliens like MECs, Mutons, Berserkers, Faceless, and Andromedons. There's also a utility slot item, the Fulton Harness, to haul out 2 nearby dead of any weight. The mod has a large impact but being a XCOM bodysnatcher has compensating risks.

Guerilla Job Installed, not tested
Adds a resistance job, Guerilla. Stir up and locate ADVENT troop movements to get more ADVENT Ambush missions. Success leads to raised vigilance and retaliation.

Elerium Grounds Installed, not tested
After researching Elerium, allows crafting of Elerium Cores and upgrading Spider and EXO Suits to Power Armor equivalents in the Proving Grounds. Time and cost can be adjusted in the INI file and by default is rather significant.