[General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Mooncabbage
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Mooncabbage »

With regards to rangers, I regularly get 50-60% shots on injured troopers in full cover. It's a good way to finish them off.

Re: Rifle Shinobi, I haven't tried that, because most of the time the mobility hit reduces their usefulness too much. Low profile is an AWC must though. It increases the survivability of your troops a thousand-fold, as well as making more cover available for other troops.

Re: Snapshot Snipers, I am aware that it's supposed to make them viable as designated marksmen, but the move and shoot penalty combined with the relative difficulty hitting targets in cover, makes them far from powerful in that role. Combined with making them utterly useless as actual snipers, instead of just less effective, and it's a no go for me. I am actually retraining the Sharpshooter I mentioned, even though it's going to take 20 days. I was getting a whole lot of 0% shots that would normally be 100% for me. If I wanted a designated marksman, I'd spec a ranger for it.
nightwyrm
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by nightwyrm »

I don't believe Snapshot has a movement penalty to aim.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

Snapshot snipers could use a little love I agree, but ive been enjoying holotargeting and traditional snipers alot. Like, they work, its just not as good as the other styles of sniper.

I'm pretty neutral on my stance with rangers, there is alot of overlap with them between assaults (which are awkwardly balanced for LW) and Gunners (which in the suppression roll, are straight superior). I think they need a little bit of IDENTITY adjustment as the mid-range trooper they're supposed to be, but I don't think they're in a bad spot.

Assaults would be fine with earlier access to CQC, some bonus health / armor somewhere in the tree, and letting run and gun be a 3 turn CD instead of 4. People have complained about the assault since the first days of LW1 and "pod mechanics", yet to me, they're one of highest return rate units I use. They're still in a good place, but if you're looking to improve be my guest. :lol:

IMO: Technical are actually the class that are (by far) the weakest, due to the complete unreliability of their kit. They're fun as fuck, and burning things is outstanding, but any time the argument is technical v grenadier, its grenadier every time. Ive rarely if ever used their rocket effectively.
trihero
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by trihero »

IMO: Technical are actually the class that are (by far) the weakest, due to the complete unreliability of their kit. They're fun as fuck, and burning things is outstanding, but any time the argument is technical v grenadier, its grenadier every time. Ive rarely if ever used their rocket effectively.
Their rocket is indeed scarily inaccurate (if you watch xwynn's latest troop column ambush, he completely whiffs a rocket that he kinda wanted on a big gathering of andromedon + dudes), but I think some credit needs to be given to the infamous "flamethrower ambush" which xwynns uses to great effect.

It is pretty reliable if you have the patience to set up the ambush, and it's way more quiet than traditional explosives (huge plus). Anything that is burning (or tile is burning) can be ignored.

Early on I use technical rockets a lot, and they are way stronger than what the grenadier can bring pre-plasma grenade research. Huge area of effect, damage, and easily kills trees, none of which frag grenades do early on. As long as you fire the rocket as a first action I rarely if ever see it completely screw up my strategy, and if you want reliability you have to pick up that first perk.
aimlessgun
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by aimlessgun »

Seems to be a lot of disagreement on rangers. I think the OP's tiers are supposed to be pretty close together, so it's not like he's saying rangers are bad.

And rangers top my kill stats by a mile. My best soldier is a ranger (well being a 78 aim rookie helped). But kill stats can be a bit misleading. I find my rangers are mostly about finishing kills that are set up by the rest of the team (usually grenadiers or gunners).

Being able to kill 2 wounded/exposed enemies a turn is very valuable, and they don't rely on any cooldowns so they just do it turn after turn. But I wouldn't bring a Ranger only squad and think I'd be ok, while I could bring a Gunner only or Grenadier only squad and still be confident of success. Also a low aim rookie that gets made into a ranger is just straight up dead weight.

EDIT: Just realized a maybe underrated thing about Rangers: they are a main damage class which gets it's weapon upgrades the fastest. Immediately on researching a new weapon tier you get to give it to a guy who can shoot twice a turn with high aim, while the gunners/assaults/sharps are waiting on the next tech (and grenadiers are waiting forever for an Andromedon).
Jacke
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Jacke »

Technicals with the right AWC perk can also have the best answer to the Eternal Grenadier Question: "HEAT Warheads or Tandem Warheads": "Why not both!" :)

I think Technicals are tougher to use well because of their different and powerful but limited special attacks and how that influences their rank perk build and tactical employment.

They should have high aim for their rockets and primary, but if Commander's Choice is used, they're likely to have middling or low.

Even with the perk Fire in the Hole, they should fire rockets as the first action and thus need to be positioned the turn before.

The flamethrower is a relatively short range cone attack that's hard to use as a pod cracker from concealment. (Having the AWC perk Covert would help here.) Many players find making good use of cone attacks hard, as opposed to the simplicity (and greater range) of the rocket attacks.

To help with infiltrating, they're likely to have an SMG, which weakens their primary attack. Which is all that's left to them after shooting their rockets and flame. Depending on the battle, perhaps just the rockets.

During the early game, Technicals will only have the one rocket attack and two flame shots. The rocket is easiest to use, but after that, the flame is harder and may not be used. Low rank Technicals can be seen as a one-shot. Compared with Grenadiers who by Cpl usually have 4 grenades.

And as many have mentioned, their rank perks usually only benefit one of the primary weapon, rockets (and sometimes grenades), or the flamethrower.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

aimlessgun wrote:Seems to be a lot of disagreement on rangers. I think the OP's tiers are supposed to be pretty close together, so it's not like he's saying rangers are bad.

And rangers top my kill stats by a mile. My best soldier is a ranger (well being a 78 aim rookie helped). But kill stats can be a bit misleading. I find my rangers are mostly about finishing kills that are set up by the rest of the team (usually grenadiers or gunners). .
I'm not saying they're bad either, just if there's any issue with them its an identity crisis vs gunners / assaults.
trihero wrote:
Their rocket is indeed scarily inaccurate (if you watch xwynn's latest troop column ambush, he completely whiffs a rocket that he kinda wanted on a big gathering of andromedon + dudes), but I think some credit needs to be given to the infamous "flamethrower ambush" which xwynns uses to great effect.

It is pretty reliable if you have the patience to set up the ambush, and it's way more quiet than traditional explosives (huge plus). Anything that is burning (or tile is burning) can be ignored.

Early on I use technical rockets a lot, and they are way stronger than what the grenadier can bring pre-plasma grenade research. Huge area of effect, damage, and easily kills trees, none of which frag grenades do early on. As long as you fire the rocket as a first action I rarely if ever see it completely screw up my strategy, and if you want reliability you have to pick up that first perk.
There's ways to mitigate it, like fire in the hole and stocks for crazy ambushes. But I still generally don't use the rocket, its simply too immobile, and if you don't use it on the first activation...well...

Flamethrowers have a purpose. They *do* work. Xwynn's proven that pretty effectively, but at times they're wonky and not ideal. Generally getting close to aliens sounds like major risk.
aimlessgun
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by aimlessgun »

cmdrspyker92 wrote: Flamethrowers have a purpose. They *do* work. Xwynn's proven that pretty effectively, but at times they're wonky and not ideal. Generally getting close to aliens sounds like major risk.
Main thing that sticks out to me is they aren't as good as incendiary grenades on grenadiers. In xwynn's excellent "nightmare on K street" troop ambush, he opens with a 5 man flamer. I think he gets 2 burns. He could have gotten a 5 man incendiary grenade instead with 5 burns, better initial damage, and better DoT damage, without having to sneak up.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

aimlessgun wrote:
cmdrspyker92 wrote: Flamethrowers have a purpose. They *do* work. Xwynn's proven that pretty effectively, but at times they're wonky and not ideal. Generally getting close to aliens sounds like major risk.
Main thing that sticks out to me is they aren't as good as incendiary grenades on grenadiers. In xwynn's excellent "nightmare on K street" troop ambush, he opens with a 5 man flamer. I think he gets 2 burns. He could have gotten a 5 man incendiary grenade instead with 5 burns, better initial damage, and better DoT damage, without having to sneak up.
Meanwhile I'll have a pod drop in on the burning terrain left by my flamer. :lol:

I havn't fiddled with the incendiary grenade yet, so I can't comment on it, but if it truly outscales the technical that hard, the technical being the "Flamethrower class" needs some proving ground / GTS / perk buffs to make sure its #1 at the end of the day.
Mooncabbage
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Mooncabbage »

I'm going to retrain that Sharpshooter as a Spotter build. Hopefully I can equip a Rifle or something instead of the default Sniper Rifle. The Marksman might be more palatable if they could shoot twice or had some other benefit. They're just clearly the worst option for the Sharpshooter class, especially since you can equip a Sniper with a pistol and get AWC perks for it relatively easily. I do like that so many of the classes have 2 or 3 distinct options. Like the Specialist can be a Medic or an EW specialist. It means there are effectively so many more classes.

Also I didn't realise that the Flamethrower isn't 100% to set fires. I'm not saying it definitely should be, but it should certainly be atleast as good as the incendiary grenades, so something has to give there, buff/debuff wise.
Jacke
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Jacke »

Mooncabbage wrote:I'm going to retrain that Sharpshooter as a Spotter build. Hopefully I can equip a Rifle or something instead of the default Sniper Rifle.
The Sharpshooter can only carry sniper rifle type weapons as his primary, not an rifle. There's two good builds that are someone related, the Spotter and Sniper. Here's what I plan. Alpha Mike Foxtrot can be swapped with Double Tap or Serial as desired.

Sharpshooter Spotter
Rapid Targeting - HiDef Holo - Long Watch - Independent Tracking - Vital Point Targeting - Multitargeting - Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Sharpshooter Sniper
Death From Above - Damn Good Ground - Long Watch - Low Profile - Aggression - Hunter's Instincts - Alpha Mike Foxtrot
Mooncabbage wrote:Also I didn't realise that the Flamethrower isn't 100% to set fires. I'm not saying it definitely should be, but it should certainly be atleast as good as the incendiary grenades, so something has to give there, buff/debuff wise.
Don't know what the Flamerthrower's chances for setting fires are, but it should approach what the Incendiary Grenades do.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Saph7 »

Jacke wrote:I'm going to retrain that Sharpshooter as a Spotter build. Hopefully I can equip a Rifle or something instead of the default Sniper Rifle.Sharpshooter Spotter
Rapid Targeting - HiDef Holo - Long Watch - Independent Tracking - Vital Point Targeting - Multitargeting - Alpha Mike Foxtrot

Sharpshooter Sniper
Death From Above - Damn Good Ground - Long Watch - Low Profile - Aggression - Hunter's Instincts - Alpha Mike Foxtrot
Yeah, I prefer Serial to AMF, but this is pretty much what I do. Both are very useful.
Jacke wrote:Don't know what the Flamerthrower's chances for setting fires are, but it should approach what the Incendiary Grenades do.
Incendiary Grenade is 100% as far as I can tell, which by the time you get them means that they're far more reliable than Flamethrowers. An incendiary grenade fired by a decent grenadier does nearly 10 damage upfront, with another 5ish added from burn and a turn worth of disable. That's just ridiculously powerful, especially when you go up against those Tac Sense/Tac Upgrades elite ADVENT troopers who have so much defence that even when they're standing in the open your odds to hit them are 50% and below.
Mooncabbage
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Mooncabbage »

It seems like a missed opportunity if the sharpshooter class is limited to the Sniper Rifle only. Most other classes have multiple options, excepting the Gunner. I might have to mod the mod to allow it myself. Unless the sniper rifle behaviour is inherent to the class rather than the weapon.

I was thinking a build with Phantom and the Holo-Targetting perks would be quite interesting.

EDIT: Looking at the classes ini file, it seems like the Sharpshooter's skills apply to it's primary weapon, rather than the Sniper Rifle specifically. Not sure if it can be changed, so I'm leaving it for now. Pretty sure Squad Sight shotguns are not Working As Intended :P
Kimmy
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Kimmy »

One of the most common complaints I've seen about the strategic layer is two-fold:

1) The mechanics of how the strategic layer works is nebulous to most. Perhaps make a region's vigilance a visible thing?

2) It takes too long for a region to cool off after ADVENT brought up it's ADVENT strength. Perhaps increase vigilance reduction?

Newbies quit doing missions in a region and put all their haven personnel on Hiding in the hopes of strength eventually going down, they wait month after month and it doesn't change(or even goes up). Person grows frustrated and quits playing the mod for the time being.
Seen it multiple times.

The strategic layer is quite important, because an imbalance/imperfect design of it has the potential to undo an investment of many real-life hours of progress of a player. In contrast, a similar issue on the tactical layer will simply cause the player to lose a soldier once in a while.

I hope this doesn't come across as overly critical, I love this mod to bits and am having fun like I've never had before with any mod! :D
It's just that it's a waste if newbies lose interest and lose out on the experience due to feeling their time has been wasted by a strategic layer that they found difficult to understand or didn't work as advertized(like Hiding not seeming to lower strength from their perspective).
ConradKurze
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by ConradKurze »

Saph7 wrote:Incendiary Grenade is 100% as far as I can tell, which by the time you get them means that they're far more reliable than Flamethrowers. An incendiary grenade fired by a decent grenadier does nearly 10 damage upfront, with another 5ish added from burn and a turn worth of disable. That's just ridiculously powerful, especially when you go up against those Tac Sense/Tac Upgrades elite ADVENT troopers who have so much defence that even when they're standing in the open your odds to hit them are 50% and below.
Incendiary grenade also has a radius of 1 tile. Incendiary Bomb has a radius of 2 tiles. So I wouldn't say Incendiary 'nades are straight up more powerful than Flamers. With Advanced Launchers that equals Radius of 4. At that point it might be straight up better, as that should be able to hit 2-3 enemies (which is the most you can expect from a combat flame attack, compared to a stealth flame attack).
LordYanaek
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by LordYanaek »

Jacke wrote: The Sharpshooter can only carry sniper rifle type weapons as his primary, not an rifle. There's two good builds that are someone related, the Spotter and Sniper. Here's what I plan. Alpha Mike Foxtrot can be swapped with Double Tap or Serial as desired.
I'll have to see how this build works on Commander but on my first (now abandoned) veteran campaign my Snapshot marksman did a really good job. You don't use a marksman like a regular sniper thought.
This was the build : Snap Shot - Damn Good Ground (could have been Precision Shot) - Phantom - Center Mass - Conceal - Hunter's Instinct - Serial

She could be used as an off-scout with phantom and conceal. The aliens didn't spot her when i open fire so she could easily flank them for powerful flanking shots often resulting in crits even without deadshot. She stayed mostly behind the rest of the troops so even when she wasn't concealed she could often take some flanking shots as she was a couple tiles beyond aliens vision. Often she would take a squadsight shot at 2-3 tiles range (i think you get big penalties to hit starting at 5 or 6). The important part is to use your mobility to flank enemies with such a build so you want high mobility in addition to good aim rather than great aim and low mobility. She was part of a 5 men squad doing infiltration missions (network towers, hacking, destroy the relay ...) so i had no grenadiers in that squad to break cover (and they are unreliable in that job anyway, even with sapper) so flanking was important. Missions suited to those 5 men squads are rare so Snap Shot sharpshooters are in an awkward position but the issue isn't the build but rather the missions distribution but there is an entire thread about this.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Saph7 »

ConradKurze wrote:Incendiary grenade also has a radius of 1 tile. Incendiary Bomb has a radius of 2 tiles. So I wouldn't say Incendiary 'nades are straight up more powerful than Flamers. With Advanced Launchers that equals Radius of 4. At that point it might be straight up better, as that should be able to hit 2-3 enemies (which is the most you can expect from a combat flame attack, compared to a stealth flame attack).
Technical flamethrowers are good in the early game. But the Incendiary just keeps scaling (+1 radius with Volatile Mix, +1 radius with Incendiary Bomb upgrade, +1 radius with Advanced Launcher) until by mid to late game it's hitting more tiles than the Flamethrower, for more damage, at greater range, and with a 100% chance of flame. By that point the Technical can't compete anymore. I feel kind of bad for the Technical in my campaign – he's this hard-bitten veteran who's been around from the very first mission, but he has so much trouble killing anything anymore. Best he can do is keep the enemies busy while the Gunners, Grenadiers, and Sharpshooters fire over his head. He picked up Field Medic from the AWC so I've started using him as a tank and healer rather than a damage dealer (since you don't need perks to stand in the front line and get shot at).
nightwyrm
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by nightwyrm »

LordYanaek wrote:
Jacke wrote: The Sharpshooter can only carry sniper rifle type weapons as his primary, not an rifle. There's two good builds that are someone related, the Spotter and Sniper. Here's what I plan. Alpha Mike Foxtrot can be swapped with Double Tap or Serial as desired.
I'll have to see how this build works on Commander but on my first (now abandoned) veteran campaign my Snapshot marksman did a really good job. You don't use a marksman like a regular sniper thought.
This was the build : Snap Shot - Damn Good Ground (could have been Precision Shot) - Phantom - Center Mass - Conceal - Hunter's Instinct - Serial

She could be used as an off-scout with phantom and conceal. The aliens didn't spot her when i open fire so she could easily flank them for powerful flanking shots often resulting in crits even without deadshot. She stayed mostly behind the rest of the troops so even when she wasn't concealed she could often take some flanking shots as she was a couple tiles beyond aliens vision. Often she would take a squadsight shot at 2-3 tiles range (i think you get big penalties to hit starting at 5 or 6). The important part is to use your mobility to flank enemies with such a build so you want high mobility in addition to good aim rather than great aim and low mobility. She was part of a 5 men squad doing infiltration missions (network towers, hacking, destroy the relay ...) so i had no grenadiers in that squad to break cover (and they are unreliable in that job anyway, even with sapper) so flanking was important. Missions suited to those 5 men squads are rare so Snap Shot sharpshooters are in an awkward position but the issue isn't the build but rather the missions distribution but there is an entire thread about this.
This is how I use my Snapshooter as well and outfit her with armor that grapples for extra mobility. Except I have Low Profile instead of Phantom and AMF instead of Serial. Not a fan of Precision Shot though. I want her to be moving all the time and the 2-action requirement of Precision Shot totally negates that. She's a Sharp I can bring along on timed missions and rely on for great killing power.
LordYanaek
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by LordYanaek »

Do we all make female snapshooters? :lol:
Glad to see i'm not the only one thinking they have a place in some squads, just not the same as regular sharps. And good point on precision shot, i didn't use it so i missed the 2 actions requirement, glad i took DGG then. AFM or Serial are probably both equally good in different situations.
nightwyrm
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by nightwyrm »

LordYanaek wrote:Do we all make female snapshooters? :lol:
Glad to see i'm not the only one thinking they have a place in some squads, just not the same as regular sharps. And good point on precision shot, i didn't use it so i missed the 2 actions requirement, glad i took DGG then. AFM or Serial are probably both equally good in different situations.
Well...my character pool does seem to include a lot of ladies. :lol:

I've loved Snapshooters since EU and always try to make a place for them. My reasoning for AMF over Serial is that a Snapshooter probably has less targets available since she functionally has no squadsight and AMF seems more reliable, but I have missed being able to kill multiple things on occasions.
Mobtank
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Mobtank »

Ok, I've seen a lot of different opinions here and all I can say is this: Everyone has their own ideas and prefferences on how to use what.
There are loads of ways to use each individual soldier configuration, it all depends on the mission type, the terrain, what other dudes you got in your squad etc.

Personally, here are a few things I do.

Technicals: The rocket scatter discussion goes all the way back to LW1 and it's always the same thing, someone took a HIGHLY suboptimal shot and got mad when the rocket missed. Come on it's the same as taking a shotgun shot at max vision range, some shots you simply shouldn't take. The scatter is balance, plain and simple, since the rocket is so powerful.
Successful rocket and flamer usage is all about positioning. Using an SMG on the technical greatly helps with this. The rocket NEEDS to be fired as your first action, but this is not hard given it's good range as long as your overall squad tactics sets it up properly. As far as the flamer goes, burninate ambush is one very good use for it (it's getting range buffed soon i hear) but there are a few other nice ways to use it as well. One of my favs include dashing up (using SMG to make sure I can get to where I want) and then command to give him the action he needs to burn. Another is to put the AH pistol on my technical and use it to regain concealment so I can use him to scout and set up a second burninate ambush. On that note, technicals don't need to spend thier utility slots on their signature weapons unlike grenadiers, so they are free to bring whatever items your team needs (I like having them carry my smokes and medkits, poison immunity sometimes comes in handy when you need to melee burn).

Sharpshooters: Snap shot is so that you can use sharpshooters on missions that demand you move a lot, they are basically marksman rifle equipped scouts from LW1 and should be used as such (especially now that they can get phantom and conceal to go with hunter's instinct and a ton of crit boosting perks for massive flank shots).
Also I'm pretty sure you can holo from concealment safely so thats another good reason to take the stealth perks on them.

Rangers: I find that rangers with a good amount of defensive perks and gear are exellent for blocking enemy advancement by just sitting there and shooting/overwatching. Even if they don't do the most damage they give their squad breathing room to work with (and thier placement in the center of the squad+LEM works very well with officer abilities).

Assaults: Doesn't always shoot, basically un-f**ks everything when they do. They are the ace in the hole that saves you when something bad happens (also dashing a CCS guy into an un-activated pod then watching him shoot everything is glorious, and you can use command or stasis to make sure he survives). Also the arc thrower can and will save you multiple times.
On the note that they spot more enemies when they move up, jsut scout properly with a shinobi/battlescanner/scanning protocol to check if it's safe.

Psi troopers: Haven't used them much yet, but a few inportant points. Solace used to NOT be an aura unless you had bastion. From what I can tell that has/will be changed. Mind merge is straight up bugged, will be fixed in upcoming patch. Soul fire is not suppose to be super strong since it is a starter perk, but it is a re-usable combat protocol and I think we all know how useful that particular gremlin shock can be. Stasis is AMAZING since it can guarantied shut down the biggest threat every time (if you dont use it until after you shoot it you don't even get any downside from the target becoming dmg immune) and stasis shield is also awsome for so many reasons. Pod walked in and are now flanking your soldier who can't escape? Stasis. CCS assault or firestorm tech in the open after a daring charge? Stasis. Poisoned/burning/acided soldier about to die? Stasis. Panicked soldier stuck in a bad spot about to get flanked/hit by a cryssalid? Stasis. The list can go on forever.
Fuse, really fun and useful. Null lance, good damage that ignores cover, line of sight, armour, defense and dodge. Insanity, very useful rupture if you got schism. It also makes void rift a potential AoE rupture attack. Domination, just plain and simply good. The one I have the most issue with is soulsteal, but I can also choose to not train it.
Lastly, according to UFOpedia's LW2 page, psi soldiers should now gain +5 mobility at their sq and lcp ranks. If true, then that is FANTASTIC. I would pay a lot to get that kind of mobility increas on rank up for a few soldiers :)
Hazelnut
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Hazelnut »

aimlessgun wrote:
cmdrspyker92 wrote: Flamethrowers have a purpose. They *do* work. Xwynn's proven that pretty effectively, but at times they're wonky and not ideal. Generally getting close to aliens sounds like major risk.
Main thing that sticks out to me is they aren't as good as incendiary grenades on grenadiers. In xwynn's excellent "nightmare on K street" troop ambush, he opens with a 5 man flamer. I think he gets 2 burns. He could have gotten a 5 man incendiary grenade instead with 5 burns, better initial damage, and better DoT damage, without having to sneak up.
This is why I propose that Fire&Steel gets swapped with Shredder perks. It would give a firespec tech a role when not expending limited flame/rocket charges. As it currently stands I cannot imagine not taking Burnout on a flamer.. to get the right position cover is not often availiable with the required facing so formidable & burnout have to do. Would happily trade off Phosphorous for Shredder on some of my flamers however.
Poobah
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Poobah »

RE:Rangers - I really like rangers. I feel like they aren't getting enough credit for main area in which they excel which is consistency. Gunners are great and their strengths have been covered admirably and at length, but they are also primarily cooldown based and ammo limited since most of their skills having 5+ turn cooldowns and using up 4+ ammo which means a lot of reloading with half a mag (wasting autoloader charges because I need to use a skill) and a lot of sitting around just taking one shot at baseline accuracy on a turn. I tend to use them almost like a support unit / spellcaster where their skills are what matters, rather than their standard shots.

Meanwhile my rangers are all about shooting their guns, every turn they get to shoot at least twice. I can always weave movement, reloading and rapid fire into a constant wave of shots. With a crit build the amount of damage they can put out is unparalleled. I haven't tried an overwatch build but I intend to next campaign, I can only imagine how much damage they could put out with rapid reaction and with cool under pressure and an elite hair trigger adding a total of 25 aim to an already high aim soldier.
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Valaska
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Valaska »

Rangers the weakest? Please don't touch rangers because they are freakin glorious workhorses. They are a mainstay in almost every unit of mine and are just an outright reliable killing machine... I don't know how you are having a hard time using them because seriously they are reliable Murder Death Killl units.

I don't really get peoples hard-on's with Gunners. They are great, they SLAUGHTER advent troops, they are pretty bloody great... But they are stupidly cooldown based and honestly, Rangers aren't. Rangers consistently kill things, they are almost always offensive and great.

Arc Assaults are... Incredible. I've activated 4 8 man pods at once, and not a single one of them were able to so much as move for 2 turns with the arc blaster and a decently high aim. My Spark's, rangers, and gunner laid the hurt out on everything, Reaper Shinobi then went from unit to unit giving them a prostate deep physical exam with a fusion axe.
Mooncabbage
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:06 pm

Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Mooncabbage »

I can't wait to try my Arc Assault... I haven't tried to spec one yet, but it's something I'm looking forward to. Just have to promote a rookie assault a bit.

I can see that a snapshot marksman might be beneficial if their movement was sufficiently high. Usually I train fairly average or low movement guys with high aim as sharpshooters, which might be part of my problem. I think it's ridiculously punishing to have the snapshot perk apply even when you haven't moved yet though. As I have said before, given a pistol and a few AWC pistol perks, it's just a better proposition if you want a moving shooting marskman. Pistols (especially cheap higher tier ones) do fairly decent damage too.
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