[General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:00 pm

[General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Saph7 »

So, currently midway through my second LW campaign on Veteran (first one wiped twice on the Network Tower, this one is looking like a win) and thought I'd put up a thread with my feedback.

Main takeaway is that the mod is really good! I'm thoroughly enjoying it and planning to do another playthrough on Commander difficulty as soon as I'm done with this one. Most of this post is going to be criticism/stuff to improve of one kind or another, but overall, I think the mod's great (especially given how early it is in its cycle).

UI/Strategic layer

Several people have posted on this already, so I'm not going to harp on it too much, but far and away the biggest problem with the mod as it stands: CLUNKY STRATEGIC LAYER. In particular:

1) When I'm scanning and a GTS officer training finishes, I get two options: 'carry on' and 'view soldier'. Both are useless. What I really want is a 'put new soldier in the GTS' button, instead of having to click through five screens to do it.

2) AWC perk training: same deal. 'Carry on' is useless, 'view soldier' is useless. I want a 'put new soldier in the AWC' button. It would also be nice to be able to preview a soldier's AWS perks when you mouse over them for placing them in the AWC, rather than having to click on them to see the options, then have to re-click three more times if you don't like the choices.

3) GTS rookie training: similar deal. Please let us see a rookie's stats when we're selecting them for GTS training. It's annoying as hell to have to look through your soldier roster, figure out who should be which class, then go to the GTS screen and see their names and not their stats and have to remember their names. As someone said: they're rookies, no-one remembers their names.

All three of the above problems would be greatly mitigated if it were possible to put a soldier in the GTS/AWC/psilab directly from the view soldier screen. View a soldier's abilities, click one button -> soldier goes in the pod. Would be a really nice QOL feature!

4) Weapon mods: trying to swap these around is excruciating. Hopefully the existing 1.2 change will help with this.

5) Haven management: Please let players change the gear of Haven Adviser soldiers while they're on duty. As things are, you have to remove the adviser, then re-equip them, then re-assign them (hope you didn't forget where they were supposed to go). It's pointless busywork. On a similar note, it would be great if you had a 'next Haven/previous Haven' button in the Haven management screen.

Okay, so I guess I did kind of end up harping a bit. On to the classes.

Class Balance

IMO, class balance is pretty good so far. With one exception, all of the classes are well-designed and have a role to play. That said, I do think there could be a few tweaks. My experience from my game so far:

Tier 0 (brokenly overpowered): none
Tier 1 (slightly overpowered): Gunner, Grenadier
Tier 2 (generally balanced): Sniper, Specialist, Shinobi
Tier 3 (slightly underpowered): Ranger, Technical, Assault
Tier 4 (bad): Psi Ops

Gunner: Just does everything at the moment. Enemy in the open? Chain Shot/Cyclic Fire. Enemy in too much cover? Demolition/Hail of Bullets. Group of enemies? Saturation Fire/Area Suppression. I never even looked at the suppression perks since building a gunner as a super-Ranger seemed so strong already. I honestly think you could beat most non-stealth missions with a team of all Gunners.

Grenadier: The thing about Grenadiers is that they can place AoE attacks at long range reliably, which makes them far superior to the other crowd-control choices. Once they get Incendiary Grenades they can basically auto-kill any cluster of bio-enemies with no chance of failure.

Sniper: Death from Above snipers are very strong but dependent on good positioning – Snipers need a good perch, Gunners and Grenadiers don't care. My snipers usually get the most kills in the squad, but that only works because the whole squad positions around them. Holo-Targeting snipers are force multipliers, they're weak early on but get pretty nice once they start stacking up the holo bonuses and once you can afford a big enough squad to take advantage of them. Snap Shot snipers are awful, but that's okay, you have two good build paths already.

Specialist: Not much to be said about these guys, they do their job and they do it well. They're a well-designed support class, occasionally overpowered (when you pull off that clutch Haywire), occasionally underpowered (when there are no robots or things to hack) but never useless.

Shinobi: Like Specialists, they're very good at what they do, namely stealth and slicy-dicy. Only thing that I'd like to see is a better choice at Master Sergeant (can't really see any reason to pick anything except Reaper at the moment since the other two require you to build a shooty Shinobi, which isn't what they're good at).

Ranger: Gunner does their job better. The one niche that Rangers have going for them is that they make really good Overwatchers, but the OW build doesn't take off until Gunnery Sergeant (where you get Rapid Reaction) which is a really long time to wait. Lance Corporal and Corporal perks feel rather weak.

Technical: Grenadier does their job better. Can't really build them as Rocketeers because you only get one rocket (and Concussion Rocket is terrible), fireman build works but requires enemies to co-operate with positioning, so why not use a Grenadier instead, who can do it more reliably and at range? Technicals do get a brief time to shine in the early game where they're the only ones who can apply the Burn status, but once Incendiary Grenades come into play the Technicals fall off hard.

Assault: The Assault actually is good at their job, which is getting in close and doing lots of damage. Their problem is that the pod mechanics of XCOM, and the enemy density of LW, mean that running up close to shoot an enemy in the face is usually a really really bad idea, since activating an 8-man pod as you run in can easily lose you the mission if not the entire campaign. This tends to leave the Assault sitting in the middle of the battle line because they're too scared to advance. I think the way LW works means that the Assault is just inevitably going to be one of the less useful classes once you get out of the early game, and that's that. Having Close Combat Specialist arrive so late in the tree also hurts.

Psi Ops: Okay, so I'm going to take a bit more time on this one, since this is the only class which as things stand is just bad. Psi troops require a research investment (not only techs, but you need a permanent scientist on psi lab duty if you don't want the training to take all year, which effectively means every other one of your techs is researching that much slower), a resource investment (time, alloys, and elerium to build the Psi Lab and their gear), and a time investment (months and months to train them up). To make that worth it, Psi soldiers need to be slightly better than vanilla soldiers. Instead, they're worse. Half the Psi skills suck – Mind Merge is completely bloody useless, Solace doesn't actually cure panic, Insanity most of the time ends up being a single-target flashbang that might not even work, Stasis Shield is garbage, Soul Healing is garbage, etc – and due to the RNG nature of Psi training, you've got no guarantee of getting the good ones. A squaddie Assault will always have Run and Gun and shotgun proficiency, so no matter what, he's never going to be completely useless. My second Psi, on the other hand? Fortress, Insanity, and Mind Merge for powers. Then he promoted and got a choice of three powers of which the cheapest would have taken him 21 days (with a scientist boosting). My best Psi trooper, on the other hand, has Soulfire, with which she can do a guaranteed . . . 4-6 damage. After which she has to lie down for four turns. Meanwhile, my gunners are doing twice that much with Hail of Bullets, except they just need a reload and they're right back in the fight. The power I've actually ended up getting the most use out of is Fuse, even though it's strictly worse than having a good Grenadier of your own, simply because having my Psi be a mediocre Grenadier is an above-average result for her. Hey, maybe in about two more months of training I might have a Psi trooper with Domination. Then I'll be able to take control of enemies sometimes. You know, that thing my Specialists have been doing since level 1.

So yeah. As things stand, you'll actually end up with a stronger barracks if you avoid/ignore psi completely. This makes me sad, since I really enjoyed Psi troops in XCOM 1 and 2, but if I ever end up playing the higher difficulties I think I'll have to give up on building a psi lab, since it's just not worth the investment.

Anyway, that's all I can think of for the moment. Good work on the mod!
Last edited by Saph7 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
aimlessgun
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:22 am

Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by aimlessgun »

I think I agree with everything here, except Psi, because I havn't used them, since when I had a resource crunch they didn't seem worth gonig for, and now that I have a resource surplus, it seems to too late to go for them. So actually I guess I partially agree with you about psi ;)

Class balance does seem pretty decent though. Ranger and Assault have stuff only they do super well so Gunners being generally better is not much of an issue. Technical I still think needs a few changes though, doesn't feel great for a class to only be good early game and then get moved to Haven advising.
nightwyrm
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by nightwyrm »

Regarding the PsiOp, I think some of the problems with the skills in LW2 might have already been there in Vanilla but just wasn't discovered. No one in Vanilla takes out a PsiOp on a mission when he just has Soulfire and Fuse. You just leave the PsiOp in the tank until he gets Domination/Void Rift/Stasis and he probably already has a T2 or T3 psi amp on his first mission. No one worried about a weak PsiOp coz they only see the OP ones in mission after they completed all their training. Now in LW2, you have to take him out on missions when he's low leveled and super weak and he's just not worth it.

In LW2, the impact of a high level PsiOp is also much reduced in comparison. Inspire got moved off to Command for Officers. Crowd and single target control powers like Stasis and Void Rift now has to compete with Sting Grenade, Fire Grenades, and Stun guns. Dominate is also much more powerful when you have only 6 dudes. But in LW2, you can take up to 10 and your hacker can also take permanent control of a MEC.

If the game wants you to take the PsiOp out for multiple missions to level him, the devs need to rework his perk tree so that most of his powers are actually useful in most missions and can scale well. I've seen some compare the PsiOp to a Swiss Army knife. But a Swiss Army knife that starts off with only a bottle opener and you have to take it out on multiple camping trips just so you can add the knife attachment to it is just a shitty bottle opener.
umie214
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by umie214 »

overwatch-specced rangers are pretty overpowered. unlike gunners, rangers are disgusting in close range with their shotgun, and i had mine spec'd for pistols too. Rangers were my bread and butter on the first playthrough. Assaults are hit or miss until Street Sweeper and Untouchable, at which points they become gods. i mean in late game, Street Sweeper can one-shot an entire pod, given the crit is virtually guaranteed (I hit one pod for 54 damage). so yes, theyre a bit of an investment.
Jacke
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Jacke »

I agree with the original post, although I've not personally unlocked Psi Ops.

One thing I would like. Whenever a mission is discovered or accessed to confirm the troops for it, or later when launching the mission, there's no date and time on the screen, unlike every other strategic view. I don't know if this can be addressed in LW2, but I'd like to know what the game date and time is when I'm making these decisions.
Mooncabbage
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Mooncabbage »

A few notes on the classes:

Suppression builds for gunners are very powerful for locking down clusters of relatively weak enemies, like advent troopers. This is the dedicated role of most of my gunners.

Shinobi are very good at slicey dicey, but this can leave them exposed if you aren't careful. Very much a glass cannon. The other viable build is as a scout/spotter, which can work very well with a Death From Above sniper. One of my Shinobi's is actually specced as a gunslinger, with the best pistol I can muster. He got very good AWC perks for the pistol, and with a surprise flank, can gun down or damage an enormous number of troopers (he's got the perk to take a pistol shot at every visible enemy). So when I really need it, he can bring the hurt.

Rangers are actually best used IMO for reliable damage. They have a very high damage shotgun option when you absolutely, positively, have to end something. But for the most part, I use the double fire abilities to mop up potentially dangerous units, such as rocketeers and grenadiers.

Technicals are underated as a class in general, but I do agree, could do more.

Assault troops are handy for when something you can't hit needs to die. They aren't great every turn, but every 2nd or 3rd turn they're the most useful unit you have.

Can't comment on Psi-Ops, as I've only just unlocked them. I have applied the recommended fixes from the 1.2 update though, so you'd have to keep that in mind.
Ketchup4684
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Ketchup4684 »

I find it funny that in vanilla XCOM 2 psio ops were the most powerful class, but in LW2 they're garbage. Wasted opportunity, hopefully they get buffed.
Daergar
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Daergar »

I find psi ops to be spectacular, just takes the extra investment.

Solace and Fortress extending to nearby teammates is wonderful. Stasis to lock down anything without fail for a round.

Domination to get yourself, for example, an Andromedon for an entire mission. Void rift to apply a ton of crowd control, including mind control, on top of 2-3 armor piercing damage to everything.

Soul fire to reliably and consistently weaken or finish off things with high defense in high cover. The list goes on.

Assaults deal the most damage of any single class if you spec them right (50% extra damage on run and gun and perks and gear to bring the crit chance to near 100%). The ability to run up just about anything and one or two-shot them is sweet. If they somehow fail, they get a free shot due to close combat.

CC specialist also lets you active pods with them, safely so with the use of Command. Running into a pod and firing six rounds at six targets with very high damage and crit chance is not to be frowned upon.

Just so many ways to play things, for instance I've not taken a single pistol awc on any char, nor fired a pistol once, and I'm just about done with the campaign. Never felt the lack, something to try on my next one.
ConradKurze
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by ConradKurze »

I disagree with your assessment of Rangers and Assaults.
Gunners get Traverse Fire about the same time Rangers get Rapid Reactions, so in the early game Rangers put out more fire power with the ability to shoot twice, and once Gunners get Traverse Fire Rangers get Rapid Reactions which allows for 4 shots per turn (ideally).

Assaults Arc Thrower is actually pretty amazing. Got a 20hp Archon in your face? You can either shoot it a few times to try and kill it, or just 1 hit from the Arc Thrower will put it out of the fight for at least 1 turn (upgrades last longer), allowing you to deal with it at your leisure. In addition Run'n'Gun combined with a crit build (easy for Assaults) can easily crit for 15+ with Mag weapons, often with 100% hit/crit chances.

Gunners are great, they have awesome Aim progression, fair HP, and get some amazing abilities, but so do Rangers and Assaults.
mmCion
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by mmCion »

agree with almost everything. Disagree on Rangers. Rangers are my executioners with rifles, and do a great job at it.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Saph7 »

Daergar wrote:I find psi ops to be spectacular, just takes the extra investment.

Solace and Fortress extending to nearby teammates is wonderful. Stasis to lock down anything without fail for a round.
As far as I can tell, Solace doesn't actually extend to nearby teammates. The ability description makes it sound like it should, but when I run my Solace Psi up to a panicking trooper, nothing happens. I don't know if this is a bug or intentional.
LordYanaek
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by LordYanaek »

I haven't finished a campaign either so i can only guess about late game balance but here are some of my thoughts.
Saph7 wrote: UI/Strategic layer
Amen bro. A lot of small improvements can be done as a matter of QoL. Hopefully those will get addressed once the core balancing is done.
Gunner:

Gunners seem a bit too good when you can take them, which is not always as they have a big impact on Infiltration. However since you rarely fight in those tight infiltration missions, their biggest issue is removed. Maybe make them a little less good at direct damage to concentrate on their control/support role.
Grenadier:
Grenadiers have limited supplies so it makes sense that while their supplies last, they are slightly better than alternatives since they are somewhat dead weight once they run out of grenades.
Sniper: ... Snap Shot snipers are awful, but that's okay, you have two good build paths already.
Disagree here. Snap Shot can be really useful in some squads and situations. unfortunately, they fit best in limited size squad fighting limited enemies and those are the 5-6 man squads lost somewhere between the 3 men infiltrations and the 10 men all-in missions. They are good, but they lack appropriate missions.
Shinobi: ... Only thing that I'd like to see is a better choice at Master Sergeant (can't really see any reason to pick anything except Reaper at the moment since the other two require you to build a shooty Shinobi, which isn't what they're good at).
Sword Shinobis are too fun, and pure infiltration too useful to build rifle shinobis but i'm quite sure they are a valid build and they would really benefit from those other MSGT perks. I'll try to build some for a change in my restarted campaign.
Ranger:
Technical:
Assault:
I don't think Ranger and Assault are underpowered. They are quite good at what they do (kill several enemies in a single turn) depending on how you play them. Ranger suffers from the overlap with the gunner but it's more a gunner issue. The assault OTOH fills a more unique role and requires good scouting to be used efficiently but can be devastating when used correctly.
Agreed on the technical. I think it's probably the most widely accepted weak class (excluding Psi ops) and i would be surprised if they were not somewhat reworked in a way or another.
Mooncabbage
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Mooncabbage »

Was going to post a new thread, but it seems worth mentioning here:

I have just noticed (by taking two sharpshooters on one mission), that Snapshot applies a significant penalty, even when the Sharpshooter with it has not yet moved that turn. IMO this is a seriously bollox penalty, that actually makes the sniper markedly worse. You are many times better off just giving them a pistol.

This is mostly in reply to LordYanaek's assertion that Snapshot Snipers don't suck. They do. The only reason I don't retrain this one, is she's already a Tech Sergeant. And I'm debating doing it anyway!
amgarrak1
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by amgarrak1 »

Agreed on PsiOps. They are just not worth the investment and will only be strong when at max rank, while other classes can shine at squaddie rank. The only good skills they have are stasis, insanity with schism and domination(void rift is only good if you are lucky to have schism) and you aren't even guaranteed to get them.
JulianSkies
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by JulianSkies »

Saph7 wrote:
Daergar wrote:I find psi ops to be spectacular, just takes the extra investment.

Solace and Fortress extending to nearby teammates is wonderful. Stasis to lock down anything without fail for a round.
As far as I can tell, Solace doesn't actually extend to nearby teammates. The ability description makes it sound like it should, but when I run my Solace Psi up to a panicking trooper, nothing happens. I don't know if this is a bug or intentional.
The thing is that it does, but it doesn't works like it does in Vanilla, it applies at the start of the round instead. I'm not sure if that was a purposeful change or not.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Saph7 »

JulianSkies wrote:The thing is that it does, but it doesn't works like it does in Vanilla, it applies at the start of the round instead. I'm not sure if that was a purposeful change or not.
Wait, doesn't that mean it's almost useless? Since most Disorient/Panic effects last one turn, that means that moving the Psi up to the soldier won't take effect until it's already running out anyway. I suppose it could work on Mind Control, but that's really really niche.
nightwyrm
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by nightwyrm »

On Snapshooters. Because of the way Snapshot works, you don't actually use them like a sniper. They work more like long distance Rangers.

On PsiOps. Even maxed rank, they aren't all that great. Lots of the stuff they could do is duplicated by other classes. Dominate? Hackers can do that to MECs too. Void Rift? Sting grenades do crowd control better. Stasis? Burning works just as well on most enemies. Bastion and Solace is fairly unique, but proactive tactics like flashbangs can turn off most abilities that inflict those conditions. Inspire gets jacked by officers. Mind Merge is way worse than Aid Protocol coz it's turn-ending. PsiOps bring nothing to the table in LW2.
TechnoMage
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by TechnoMage »

I like my rifle shinobi, the +2 damage on flanking is amazing and with low profile and shadowstep they have a much easier time staying safe while doing said flanking. Infact low profile is one of the reasons I love the shinobi gunner, it allows a much easier time fielding my entire force behind full cover.

I use them as scouts until I really need their action to kill an enemy and shadowstrike makes sure that that happens. Late game you add in Serial with the bonus damage from hunters instinct and you can take out a lot of weak opponents if you are place to flank the enemy group.
Daergar
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Daergar »

Saph7 wrote:
JulianSkies wrote:The thing is that it does, but it doesn't works like it does in Vanilla, it applies at the start of the round instead. I'm not sure if that was a purposeful change or not.
Wait, doesn't that mean it's almost useless? Since most Disorient/Panic effects last one turn, that means that moving the Psi up to the soldier won't take effect until it's already running out anyway. I suppose it could work on Mind Control, but that's really really niche.
Well, the idea is to have the psi op in the middle of the front line, covering everyone near them. It let's you push up toward powerful psi enemies without suffering any naughty effects. As a plus, the aliens will still try to do disorient/panic/control on your troopers, it just becomes automatic fails and the alien wasted their turn.
Surrealistik
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Surrealistik »

Definitely think Psi Ops shouldn't exist as a class so much as an overlay for existing soldiers, balanced by a combination of strategic level fatigue time that increments whenever a psi power is used in proportion to the power of that psychic ability, the cooldown on those powers, and needing to occupy an item slot with a psi amp.

Agree with pretty much everything you're saying otherwise; Gunners are insanely broken.

Assault should start off with Implacable in addition to Run and Gun, because you're right; the pod density gets pretty insane, which often leaves the class twiddling its thumbs since it needs to commit (and to preempt some naysayers, it's not the only class that gets multiple perks out of the gate).
Last edited by Surrealistik on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rebus
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Rebus »

Completely agree on your UI change suggestions - implement them please! Just a quickie on rangers, though probably obvious to everyone: the PCS that gives +10 aim on second shot pairs nicely with ranger, particularly in early game with relatively low aim and limited scopes.
trihero
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by trihero »

Dominate is quite good, but the fact that you can train your psi ops all campaign and not learn it is a disaster. And in the next patch, they are making psi offense weaker, meaning it's even less successful - assuming you can even learn it in the first place.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Saph7 »

Honestly, I could live with not getting Dominate if it weren't for the fact that so many of the other powers are terrible.

I feel like Mind Merge is the worst offender here. If you roll Soul Healing or Stasis Shield as one of your three level-up powers then at least there's a good chance that there's a decent power in one of the other slots. But with Mind Merge, there's a 3/4 chance that any new Psi will get it as one of their starting powers, meaning that there's a 75% chance that any Psi Op will be forever stuck spending one of their precious power slots on something that's almost completely useless.

Mind Merge really needs to do something more to make it worthwhile – 3 ablative HP really doesn't cut it given that by that point in the game you're fighting stuff that does 5-10 damage per hit. Maybe make it cure Disorient and Panic or something? At least that way it wouldn't be a complete waste of a slot.
Last edited by Saph7 on Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zyxpsilon
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Zyxpsilon »

I feel the ideal solution to the PsiOp current 'limitations" (if there are, btw) would be to give them a relatively high impact -- not Hours like Suppressors.. more like full-day(s)+ on Infiltration time.
They certainly are "influential" by design & while their current Ranking process might seem too slow for readily combat consequences of any sort (except Mind/Control & Rift -- given).. the most skilled candidates would also offer scaling amounts beyond their inherent basic DAY subtraction(s).
So you bring one and you get advantages over the cyclic events (Gops & others) as they happen **AND** offer rapid interventions by multiple squads when individually staffed.

Secondly.. they might even allow to react at the "less than a day or two expirations" missions & often make any somewhat possible by more than just Stealthy (risky) choices and sufficiently integrated PSI support.
Fictitious1267
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Re: [General Feedback] Strategic layer and class balance

Post by Fictitious1267 »

I agree with you. I found Rangers to be the weakest class in the game, primarily because aliens in cover are just too hard to hit in LW2. I have not had any problems using Assaults at all. Maybe I'm just use to being cautious when flanking. However, a Ranger's job isn't to flank, it's to shoot, and the only thing they can hit in LW2 are drones, unfortunately.
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