Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Falkie
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Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Falkie »

What if we scale the mission rewards, including probability of corpse drops by the infiltration %, capped at 100%?

This would greatly reduce the incentive to do low% infiltration supply raids, troop columns, and HQ missions for massive loot.
wei270
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by wei270 »

would it be less work to just put a reduction on all resources based reward in relation to on infiltration percentage?
Severian
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Severian »

Or easier still, remove infiltration entirely for these missions (except maybe HQ). It doesn't make sense narratively that you should be able to wait anyway.
trihero
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by trihero »

Nerfing it alone doesn't help anything; supply raids usually have such a bad timer left on them that the only option is to them at low infiltration. If you kill the option to do them at low infiltration then what's the point of the mission to begin with? What I'm saying if you want to nerf 0% supply raids, you have to redistribute it somewhere else to make supply raids actually meaningful to do.

One way to go that makes sense is make them both easier to detect with a better duration and more rewarding to do with higher infiltration. Doing at low infiltration should be possible, and even perhaps....reliable if you're good enough, but it should be significantly more rewarding to do it with a "proper" infiltration and team size. It would help to make these things less grindy. As it turns out I recently did a "proper" supply raid at 96% infiltration (with a boost) with 6 men and it felt about as hard as a 0% due to the fact that you still have to fight an 8 man pod eventually and you get worn out by the time you reach it at the end.

And I haven't any clue why HQ is included in the OP, you can't infiltrate an HQ at 0%.
Alketi
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Alketi »

Doing a 0% Supply Raid with no save scumming or other tricks means there's a decent chance someone on your team is going to die. Period.

Sometimes you won't get a map with friendly elevation, sometimes you'll be screwed by pod starting positions. These are not as "easy" as is being implied. In fact, if things go badly, you won't even last through your 8-turn EVAC timer.

I don't think Xavier's ever posted one. I saw JonRBS's 0% raid, which was well executed and benefitted from massive grenading as well as the map topology. I saw someone else here claim 0% supply raid victory and posted a video of it. Within the first 5 minutes the kid was typing console commands to move his soldiers around. Give me a break.
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NoDebate
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by NoDebate »

Why not just spike Vigilance?

Detecting those Supply Raids is going to be hard after one or two full Retaliations.
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Devon_v
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Devon_v »

NoDebate wrote:Why not just spike Vigilance?

Detecting those Supply Raids is going to be hard after one or two full Retaliations.
Because they're supposed to be a means of reducing ADVENT strength, not making it skyrocket.
Nagul
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Nagul »

Alketi wrote:Doing a 0% Supply Raid with no save scumming or other tricks means there's a decent chance someone on your team is going to die. Period.

Sometimes you won't get a map with friendly elevation, sometimes you'll be screwed by pod starting positions. These are not as "easy" as is being implied. In fact, if things go badly, you won't even last through your 8-turn EVAC timer.

I don't think Xavier's ever posted one. I saw JonRBS's 0% raid, which was well executed and benefitted from massive grenading as well as the map topology. I saw someone else here claim 0% supply raid victory and posted a video of it. Within the first 5 minutes the kid was typing console commands to move his soldiers around. Give me a break.
It's not. Period. Just did 3 raids supply + 1 troop column all 4 at 0%, veteran ironman, got 3 lightly wounded soldiers counting all these missions. 1 map forced me to crawl to the exact opposite of my starting position to get good spots for my sniper, took me something like 20 turns just to position myself while being safe, but I never came close of being in danger. Other layout were more favorable.

- I've yet to see a map with NO friendly elevation (ie pretty much any elevation close to a map border). They might exist, but at least my anecdotal experience taught me it's unlikely at worst.
- If you come prepared, they aren't any harder that a typical HQ assault. The number of enemies is pretty much irrelevant at this point, they can be 30 or 60 it doesn't make much of a difference, as most of crowd controls are AOE based. I had a double 8-man pod activation, enemies are forced to cluster together meaning they are easier target for suppression and flashbangs.

My team composition isn't even that cheesy : 2 death from above snipers, 2 gunners (1 damage, 1 suppression), 2 rangers (1 crit, 1 overwatch), 1 flashbang grenadier, 1 shinobi stealth. With these 8 guys you can take pretty much anybody you want to support for the last 2 spots, I like snapshotters for the flexibility, a medic in case something goes horribly wrong, an aggressive grenadier can be good too in case of tough enemies.
Bring extras smoke grenades on your sniper and there are very little chance of anyone getting hit. The key point is privileging controls above everything else with your frontline while each of your snipers kill 1 enemy every turn. You have flashbangs, suppress and smokes. Having two of these effects make you pretty much invulnerable.

My proposition for balancing 0% is changing how low infiltration affects difficulty, by having low infiltration bring tougher enemies (think higher version or stats bonii), rather than more shooting target. That way, no increase in corpses, no increase in XP gains. High infiltration still decrease the number of enemies.
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NoDebate
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by NoDebate »

Devon_v wrote:
NoDebate wrote:Why not just spike Vigilance?

Detecting those Supply Raids is going to be hard after one or two full Retaliations.
Because they're supposed to be a means of reducing ADVENT strength, not making it skyrocket.
But Vigilance =/= ADVENT Strength?

Your SR is going to bump off one ADVENT Strength but, if the 0% Infiltration bumps Vigilance by 4 points (just a random number) then ADVENT would want to bring in another 5 legions to the region.

Short term you are accomplishing your objective but, long term you could potentially flood a region until multiple Retaliations killed off most of your haven.
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Devon_v
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Devon_v »

NoDebate wrote:
Devon_v wrote:
NoDebate wrote:Why not just spike Vigilance?

Detecting those Supply Raids is going to be hard after one or two full Retaliations.
Because they're supposed to be a means of reducing ADVENT strength, not making it skyrocket.
But Vigilance =/= ADVENT Strength.

Your 0% SR is still going to bump off one ADVENT Strength but, if it spikes Vigilance by 5 points, ADVENT is going to flood that region with more legions.
Therefore forcing you to cheese more supply raids to keep AS down, thereby spiking Vigilance farther and so on until you miss some transfers. It makes the Supply Raid a pointless mission because it causes the very thing you are trying to reduce.
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NoDebate
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by NoDebate »

Devon_v wrote:
NoDebate wrote:
Devon_v wrote:
Because they're supposed to be a means of reducing ADVENT strength, not making it skyrocket.
But Vigilance =/= ADVENT Strength.

Your 0% SR is still going to bump off one ADVENT Strength but, if it spikes Vigilance by 5 points, ADVENT is going to flood that region with more legions.
Therefore forcing you to cheese more supply raids to keep AS down, thereby spiking Vigilance farther and so on until you miss some transfers. It makes the Supply Raid a pointless mission because it causes the very thing you are trying to reduce.
It makes a 0% Supply Raid a pointless mission in the strategic layer, assuming your original intent was to prevent ADVENT Strength from growing, yes.

If my intention were to spike Vigilance in the region to "get ADVENT's attention," then 0% Infiltrating might be something I'd consider to divert forces into another part of the globe.

However, properly infiltrating a Supply Raid (or any mission) should not cause a Vigilance spike. I am suggesting the Vigilance penalty be applied only when deliberate under-Infiltration is used. Penalties scaling up as some Infiltration % moves closer to 0%.
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Devon_v
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Devon_v »

NoDebate wrote:
Devon_v wrote:
NoDebate wrote:
But Vigilance =/= ADVENT Strength.

Your 0% SR is still going to bump off one ADVENT Strength but, if it spikes Vigilance by 5 points, ADVENT is going to flood that region with more legions.
Therefore forcing you to cheese more supply raids to keep AS down, thereby spiking Vigilance farther and so on until you miss some transfers. It makes the Supply Raid a pointless mission because it causes the very thing you are trying to reduce.
It makes a 0% Supply Raid a pointless mission in the strategic layer, assuming your original intent was to prevent ADVENT Strength from growing, yes.

If my intention were to spike Vigilance in the region to "get ADVENT's attention," then 0% Infiltrating might be something I'd consider to divert forces into another part of the globe.

However, properly infiltrating a Supply Raid (or any mission) should not cause a Vigilance spike. I am suggesting the Vigilance penalty be applied only when deliberate under-Infiltration is used. Penalties scaling up as some Infiltration % moves closer to 0%.
Ah, I see.
mmCion
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by mmCion »

Severian wrote:Or easier still, remove infiltration entirely for these missions (except maybe HQ). It doesn't make sense narratively that you should be able to wait anyway.

I support this, makes the problem go away, and makes sense.
trihero
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by trihero »

Another solution is make them easier to detect and with better duration in general, and make it so higher infiltration greatly reduces the risk instead of just so-so reduction in risk (like I said earlier, I got a lucky detection and got 96% infiltration with 6 men, yet the mission felt just as risky as a 10 man 0% version due to the 8 man pod at the end).

I don't like the feeling that if I skip out on a 0% supply raid, it's a massive massive resource loss (SO many corpses + elerium/alloys), so I feel arm-twisted into grinding every one of them out.
deducter
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by deducter »

One simple solution is simply to require a minimum infiltration % to attempt the mission. Say 50%.

I've been playing on Veteran with my own rule of not doing a supply raid unless I hit at least 50%. I've done a couple with 6-7 soldiers, and I've found myself using intel to boost these. The difference between Very Heavy and Moderate for smaller squad is very noticeable, and I have little interest in taking the extra risk.

Thus far I am not swimming in resources and intel becomes a more precious resource since supply raids would then be a good choice to spend them.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

With the system as designed, I don't think infiltration and supply raids can coexist. There's too much reward involved not to cheese the map because of how frustrating resource gain is overall.

Either the mission needs to be redesigned, or infiltration removed as a modifier on it.
Thrombozyt
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Thrombozyt »

Nagul wrote:My proposition for balancing 0% is changing how low infiltration affects difficulty, by having low infiltration bring tougher enemies (think higher version or stats bonii), rather than more shooting target. That way, no increase in corpses, no increase in XP gains. High infiltration still decrease the number of enemies.
This is the same fix I would propose, if an AI upgrade is out of the question. You COULD still do 0% supply raids, but do you WANT pods with two Berserkers in early May?
Mobtank
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Mobtank »

Nagul, your experience is a little less useful for comparison since you played it on veteran (AKA easy mode), but I do agree with your idea of making enemies on those missions stronger rather then more numerous. Seems like a good way to fix the 'fill the meatwagon' issue, although it wouldn't hurt for these missions to be more easily detectable as a few other people have noted.
LordYanaek
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by LordYanaek »

Nagul wrote:1 map forced me to crawl to the exact opposite of my starting position to get good spots for my sniper, took me something like 20 turns just to position myself while being safe, but I never came close of being in danger.
Sounds like you were lucky not being detected considering the insane detection radius of drones at 0% infiltration. You're right however that it's often (rather than always) possible to find a decent high ground if you're willing to spend some time exploring the map on supply convoys, reaching them unnoticed can be another story.

I really think (also posted in this thread ) that supply convoys shouldn't have an infiltration at all. They are conceptually an ambush on a large amount of advent troops since those are reinforcements sent to a fighting region so it makes sense you will fight a lot of aliens and you bring a lot of men. Infiltration is useless on 10 men squads anyway as it takes forever. If the developers want a delay on those missions (to replace the LW1 fatigue), reskin the infiltration as an "ambush timer" as the troops are waiting a few days in ambush for troops they know will move here, but don't exactly know when. Amount and type of aliens would be fixed at the start and there would be no gaming to get more corpses, no immediate re-use of the same large squad (locking a 10 men squad for some time isn't free) and it would be easier to balance for the developers knowing those missions will be among the big fights of the game.

Troop columns could be smaller ambushes meant for smaller squads (the 5-6 men squads currently badly missing appropriate missions). This could be achieved by making 0% infiltration a bad idea through really strong and quick reinforcements if infiltration is too low (you are operating within, or at the border of advent zone of control rather than ambushing them in the wilderness). If infiltration is at least at 100% there would be no reinforcements, or at least not for a long time. This would be in line with other missions where reinforcements are stronger and quicker if infiltration is low. Those missions should be well balanced for 5-6 men squads then, because an 8-pod in the early game can be really hard for those squads.
Mobtank wrote:Nagul, your experience is a little less useful for comparison since you played it on veteran (AKA easy mode)
Beg to disagree. Easy mode is Rookie and every difficulty have to be taken into account.
Nagul
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Nagul »

Mobtank wrote:Nagul, your experience is a little less useful for comparison since you played it on veteran (AKA easy mode), but I do agree with your idea of making enemies on those missions stronger rather then more numerous. Seems like a good way to fix the 'fill the meatwagon' issue, although it wouldn't hurt for these missions to be more easily detectable as a few other people have noted.
Veteran is the standard difficulty, I don't think the mod is supposed to be balanced around legendary. If I remember correctly LW1 was balanced around veteran/ironman so I disagree you can't take my experience (which may or may not differ from other players) into account. Even more when one of the biggest spike of difficulty in higher level is lower base infiltration time, which isn't taken into account here since we are doing it at 0%. A couple of HP on aliens won't change much, maybe force me dropping an additional smoke sometimes but nothing dramatic.

It's my third campaign, first one was commander without ironman, second was vet/ironman just as my current one. I didn't made any 0% raid during my second campaign, so I compared how my progression in both campaigns, and oh boy 0% raids allow to snowball hard. The cherry on the top is that your A-team is getting a shitload of XP on top of rewards, meaning your subsequent 0% raids are made easier and easier.

Don't get me wrong: I love these missions, my favorite LW1 missions were troop transport UFO. I don't do any stealth mission at all as I don't find these enjoyable (that's the main reason I'm playing veteran, so I can go 5-man squad in every missions). My only concern is that I have the feeling 0% raid break the balance of my campaign and they definitively don't feel hard enough for the rewards.
brunodema
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by brunodema »

The difficulty doesnt make any difference in this case: 0% supply raids are doable (not easy, DOABLE) both in Veteran and Legendary, and in both difficulties they can make XCOM snowball to the point that the aliens can't catch up anymore. I agree that a lot of suggestions from here would probably fix this problems (removing infiltration, changing the time remaining on these missions, overhaul the impregnable status, etc).
Jarno Mikkola
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Jarno Mikkola »

I have a new proposition.
LordYanaek wrote:detection radius
This would be the best variable to modify in the supply raids, and troop column counter infiltrations. With a set number of enemies, not dependent on the infiltration rate. So a Moderate mission would always have the same amount of enemies. Not 40+ with 0%, done one of those... it was fun with sniper that has snapshot and Death from above perks. And the ridiculous 9 enemies at ~200% infiltration.

If you go in with 0% infultration, you should have practically no chance of not being detected, ~200% detection range... and with 100%, you should have the normal detection range(the same one that the other missions have), while 200% would set it to half ~abouts.
This would only be featured in the said mission types, while the others have the normal.
Darvon
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Darvon »

I've been doing legendary bronzeman 0% raids with ballistics with only a few wounds and no death. With a bit more practice I Ironman shouldn't be a problem: I'll just need to spend twice as long during the initial positioning stage and waste my life hovering the cursor over fog to look for hidden enemies. Maybe the first four times I tried a ballistics 0% it was a complete blowout but once I figured out a loudout and technique it went from nail biting to just tedious and time consuming.

Re people claiming it's some impossible feat.
LordYanaek
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by LordYanaek »

Jarno Mikkola wrote:I have a new proposition...
You know this isn't new don't you? Detection range is already modified by infiltration, not to such an extreme as 200% (twice as big) but it is and it makes a huge difference. If you double it, enemies will detect you past their vision range with is a bit silly.
We might as well start entirely without concealment when at 0% infiltration (except for those phantom guys). This could be yet another option.
archangel
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by archangel »

I would suggest removing infiltration from this, base strength of these missions based on Advent Strength of the region this attack is coming from and limit players to certain number of troops (less than 10).

Then let players get more bodies and elerium/alloys in some other missions that at the moment feel like they don't give enough.
Currently the game balance is such that players must do these supply raids because otherwise it is impossible to keep up and win due to lack of basic materials and supply.
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