Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

amgarrak1
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Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by amgarrak1 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:58 am

Running close to aliens almost always means triggering 1-2 pods this or next turn. Why should I ever get an assault if I can just get an extra gunner\ranger and have almost the same if not more damage with zero risk. Am I missing something or are they really garbage tier?

bingo12345
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by bingo12345 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:16 am

1. use side(edge) of map. don't go center of map for flank. this will reduce probability of activation significantly.
2. use shinobi before assault class flank.
3. assault is good for timer mission. if you have enough time or don't have timer on mission, you don't need to use assault.

aimlessgun
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by aimlessgun » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:03 am

Not useless, just situational. Yes, it's hard to use them sometimes, but on missions with tight timers, retaliations and reinvasions they're great. And on big untimed combat missions, when you pull the whole map and there are no more pods left to activate, that's when your Shinobi or Assault come in from the top rope to Reaper/Sweeper them.

Assault in particular has so much raw power that it's worth waiting for the opportunities to use them. My main Assault has 174 kills in 22 missions. 8 kills a mission. Most of my damage soldiers are between 3-5, with 2nd place being a Ranger at 6 KPM.

Daergar
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Daergar » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:10 am

Because nothing can deliver as much controlled burst damage as an assault, which is why I always bring them. Running half-way, kill one alien with one shot, activate run and gun (50% more damage perk is nice), run to your actual target, sit in flank and land a critical, one-shotting that naughty elite muton sitting in high cover.

Or do the above and then end turn near two or three weakened enemies, getting a free shot at each of them as they try to shoot or move during the alien turn.

With close combat specialist you can even trigger pods with them and get nice results (with adv/elite mag anyway), saving you a rocket/grenade. Especially useful if you've already been activated, since it can be tricky to sneak up on an alert pod with your grenadier without concealment, while the assault can just double-move right into them and go to town.

Sword shinobis I never use, I need everyone of them to be a stealthy as possible given my play-style. I take Serial as the last perk, so once per hq assault or raid they emerge from hiding, finish off half a dozen weakened foes with their smg and simply run away or fleche into cover as a finisher, then conceal the next turn.

nightwyrm
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by nightwyrm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:29 pm

You haven't experienced the joy of an assault till you deleted a pod of 8 with Street Sweeper. :D

brunodema
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by brunodema » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:11 pm

Just as the case of technicals, sword shinobis aren't that bad if know where they can be useful. Missions where you just have to kill aliens as fast as possible are where assaults/technicals/combat shinobis shine, because it probably won't make a difference if you activate an unwanted pod... you just find a way to control it and kill ayys fast.

Jacke
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Jacke » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:19 pm

One way to use Assaults and Shinobi is as battle line flank ends. Be sure your rear area is scouted out and fall back the troops out of contact. Then the enemy come forward, you get another Overwatch slaughter. After once or twice, it can be much safer to send in the close combat troops, as they can be less likely to activate new pods.

cmdrspyker92
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by cmdrspyker92 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:50 pm

Like I've said before, everyone has dissed the assault since the dawning days of LW1. but theyre some of my best and most used troops. :lol:

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Devon_v
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Devon_v » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:08 pm

Shinobi are hilarious on retaliations.

If you get the classic terror mission, just run around in concealment triggering all the civs and leave. If you get the 8-turn defend, spend the first turn or two activating all the civs, then Fleche the drops. As long as your guys are decently spread out everyone should have a +3/+4 bonus on something. Chop off all their heads, then get some fries.

If you don't mind mods, and you want to feel the Real Ultimate Power, install Musashi's katana mod, then ignore the katanas and witness the power of the ninjato's silent takedown mechanics. And yes, it's a fully realized and balanced new mechanic that allows for non-concealment breaking kills. It makes sword Shinobi feel so good.

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Devon_v
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Devon_v » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:14 pm

cmdrspyker92 wrote:Like I've said before, everyone has dissed the assault since the dawning days of LW1. but theyre some of my best and most used troops. :lol:
I maintained a stable of Assaults. Their only job was to pwn EXALT. Damn did they pwn EXALT. :)

I like LW2 Assaults even more so. You use them to breach buildings and break lines. I don't like to leave concealment until I reach the objective, and by that point I generally know where and what the enemy is, so I can make informed decisions about Run and Gun. A lot of times they just hang back like bombs waiting to be dropped, using Slug Shot and the Arc Thrower on targets of opportunity.

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Valaska
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Valaska » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:33 pm

Image

Do tell me about how sword shinobis seem useless? The SMG absolutely pointless and useless yeah, but the sword... lol

Darvon
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Darvon » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:46 pm

bingo12345 wrote:2. use shinobi before assault class flank.
That's the big one, your shinobi should always be stealthed behind the enemies so you know the exact result of a running-and-gunning before you do it.

GavinRuneblade
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by GavinRuneblade » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:59 pm

Darvon wrote:
bingo12345 wrote:2. use shinobi before assault class flank.
That's the big one, your shinobi should always be stealthed behind the enemies so you know the exact result of a running-and-gunning before you do it.
This.

Also, you never activate a pod by surprise if you are charging to melee from behind. Sending the shinobi out past the enemy line is great advice.

speedmaster
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by speedmaster » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:42 pm

Also, the only reliable way to take out the big guys like Muton Centurions, Muton Elites, Berserkers etc.. is to have an assault ready to close in with a laser sighted shotgun. Leaving those guys alive is a sure way to get a soldier killed, even in full cover.

Fictitious1267
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Fictitious1267 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:25 am

I've heard people say this about Assaults, but I haven't personally had much of a problem with it. It's a hard thing to pinpoint why others have this problem, while I don't really have much of an issue with it. It could come down to what support classes you take, how much dodge you stack, how you scout the map, how you flank the enemy. Sorry, that's not any help.

I would suggest on the difficult 10 man missions to keep your Shinobi concealed as long as possible, so you know you're not going to open another pod with your Assaults. I'd even say that's their sole purpose in a large squad, besides picking up loot.

Solomani
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Solomani » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:40 am

Sword Shinobi have pulled me out of some tricky situations. Being able to run half way across the map and slice open some baddies.

Poobah
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Poobah » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:48 am

I love my sword (well let's be honest Axe) shinobis but it does frustrate me that they are utterly worthless against Mutons. I dare not ever try to melee a muton for fear of counter-attack. Otherwise yeah they are absolute death machines as other people have said.

marceror
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by marceror » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:59 am

Every class has their use. Assaults are incredibly useful and should not be overlooked. Same goes for Shinobis, particularly for their invaluable recon abilities in preventing unwanted pod activation, but also for hacking hard to reach enemies when stealth is no longer required.

If you're not using either of these classes you're missing out on some serious utility. And regarding Shinobis, there's nothing quite like beating a jail break mission without a single shot ever being fired. I have entire squad of Shinobis for sneaky missions, with a couple of Specialists included for long range hacking.

amgarrak1
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by amgarrak1 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:14 am

marceror wrote:Every class has their use. Assaults are incredibly useful and should not be overlooked. Same goes for Shinobis, particularly for their invaluable recon abilities in preventing unwanted pod activation, but also for hacking hard to reach enemies when stealth is no longer required.

If you're not using either of these classes you're missing out on some serious utility. And regarding Shinobis, there's nothing quite like beating a jail break mission without a single shot ever being fired. I have entire squad of Shinobis for sneaky missions, with a couple of Specialists included for long range hacking.
I didn't say the classes are completely useless, just some of their typical builds. Stealth shinobi is amazing, and rifle\arc assault is also interesting.
A lot of people seem to be able to use them correctly and get a ton of kills, but for me, all they do every mission(or did, until I stopped using them) is activate pods.
Also, I'm not saying they are not powerful, as assaults sure as hell deal a TON of damage with RnG rapid fire and 100% crit shotgun, BUT I can do almost the same amount of damage and from much MUCH longer range with a gunner(who also has a ton of cover destruction, AOE damage, and CC).

LoadStar81
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by LoadStar81 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:50 am

If you are having trouble specifically with using melee shinobi to get kills, there are a couple of things that may help you out.

1. The fleche skill will inflict more damage with a longer charge, so keeping your Shinobi with as much mobility as possible will help. Paired with the skill that allows them to ignore reaction fire or a flashbang to remove overwatch, you can have them sprint from one side of an enemy line to the other, picking off an isolated unit at the edge of the formation and immediately tucking into cover around a corner. This has served me incredibly well, even on convoy raid and troop column assault missions.

2. Lone wolf not only provides increased accuracy with the sword, it provides a valuable defense bonus when operating away from the rest of your troops. I've found this skill to be much more reliable than Infighter in those cases where my shinobi are singles out by the ayys for retaliatory fire, as enemies will rarely stay within 4 tiles if they can help it.

3. A well placed shinobi will cause flanking on multiple enemies, which can net you additional kills with your ranger's overwatch or your gunner's area suppression. As is often the case, combined arms can yield great results.

Mooncabbage
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Mooncabbage » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:34 am

A common mistake is to charge forward with your Shotgun Assault, activating more pods. They're far more useful close to your main line, for quickly taking out a more serious threat, like the 1 Muton in a pod of advent, or one of those dang MEC before they launch a rocket barrage at you. Sword shinobi fulfil a similar role, and are even better if you give them the ability that allows a free attack on enemies that attack or move within 1 tile range, allowing you to lock down and eliminate dug in enemies.

marceror
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by marceror » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:55 am

Using your Shinobi to scout out where the enemy pods are before engaging, when possible, is highly recommended. Helps with knowing where not to send your assault, or any other unconcealed soldier for that matter.

aimlessgun
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by aimlessgun » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:38 am

Valaska wrote: Do tell me about how sword shinobis seem useless? The SMG absolutely pointless and useless yeah, but the sword... lol
Alright that is a ridiculous amount of kills for a single character.

cmdrspyker92
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by cmdrspyker92 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:22 am

aimlessgun wrote:
Valaska wrote: Do tell me about how sword shinobis seem useless? The SMG absolutely pointless and useless yeah, but the sword... lol
Alright that is a ridiculous amount of kills for a single character.
Its an officer too. that's the best part :lol:

I didn't say the classes are completely useless, just some of their typical builds. Stealth shinobi is amazing, and rifle\arc assault is also interesting.
A lot of people seem to be able to use them correctly and get a ton of kills, but for me, all they do every mission(or did, until I stopped using them) is activate pods.
Also, I'm not saying they are not powerful, as assaults sure as hell deal a TON of damage with RnG rapid fire and 100% crit shotgun, BUT I can do almost the same amount of damage and from much MUCH longer range with a gunner(who also has a ton of cover destruction, AOE damage, and CC).
Assault's are great. I can't tell you how much fun I'm having with trench gun/lightning reflexes right now. Supported by technicals with flamethrowers/suppression have started forming the backbone of my highly RNG'd roster. Like seriously. It's getting to the point that it's less about from what safe distance I can engage and supress / explodify, but rather how close to them I can get without pissing off the rest of the map. Which my shinobis are doing a reasonably good job at preventing, though mistakes happen.

They're hard to lock down with overwatch (to the point I rarely even care of it as this point) because of lightning reflexes, and the combination of suppression / flamethrower from my technicals is allowing me to apply a literal ton of AoE CC so that my assaults can continually put down a priority target every turn while the aliens run around screaming and on fire. It's alot of damage, and its alot of fun.

Assaults also have a very very good build with the arc thrower tree, especially if you get electro shock and then capstone it later with chain lightning -- disorient every visible biological enemy for 1AP? UM YES?! (if you watch xwynns or beaglerush, who imo, are likely the best two lets players at LW, this is one of the things they heavily abuse)

There are certain things I don't like with assaults, such as I think extra conditioning is just utter garbage compared to aggression and especially formidable, but the gunner can't peel overwatch, exterminate or nullify priority target(s), re position, and potentially also be the squad tank in the same turn.
Can the gunner suppress more targets earlier and more efficiently? Of course.
Does the gunner have more reliable ranged damage? Yes, as the assault's ranged damage is cooldown based.
Can the gunner provide equivalent non-crit damage compared to the assault? Also yes. But the assault has a way higher damage potential due to crit chance and crit modifiers.

I think there's more then enough reason to choose either an assault or a gunner based on squad composition, and they both go reasonably well together as well. Saturation fire exposing everything to juicy juicy crits is delicious. ;)

Tuhalu
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Re: Close combat assaults and sword shinobis seem useless

Post by Tuhalu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:42 pm

cmdrspyker92 wrote:(if you watch xwynns or beaglerush, who imo, are likely the best two lets players at LW, this is one of the things they heavily abuse)
Beaglerush? LW2 is not for him apparently. He put out 6 LW2 videos and then stopped. Never streamed LW2 either. Are you talking about something he did in LW1?

That aside, I too quite appreciate the ability to make every living thing in sight stop doing things for a turn or two :)

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