Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

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Icreatedthisforyou
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:42 pm

Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by Icreatedthisforyou »

I keep seeing all these complicated suggestions regarding fixing 0% supply raids and troop columns, but I feel like the good old tried and true quality over quantity seems to be overlooked. So increasing infiltration lowers the Advent troop quality more so than the quantity.

Just treat them like the good old landeds from EU/EW/LW1. They have aliens you would expect to see a month later. Do the same thing with infiltration. Great March supply raid? Yeah by all means go in at 0% with your LCPL and CPL and ballistics...by the way most pods will have a muton or a mec in it! Bring in the codex's earlier, bring in the gate keepers, and beserkers earlier, BRING ALL THE STUFF IN EARLIER!!!

Add in a command pod, that has an officer advent and works the same way as command pods in LW1. You have the big baddy...and ALL his friends if you decide to fight him before clearing the map.


There are two big issues with 0% raids right now is the resources they provide allowing you to snowball.
  • Resources:The provide an extraordinary amount of resources, and lets face it the difference between killing 30 advent and killing 40 or 50 advent is pretty minimal when early on they basically are just a bunch of troopers, and later it is stuff you are already equipped to deal with. That effectively represents 20-40 alloys (50-200 supplies if you sell corpses) for basically sitting in over watch for 2-4 turns and cleaning up anyone that survives the hail of bullets.
  • Passive play: It pushes you into really passive save play styles, just sit in a corner blow everything on the first couple pods then let sharpshooters and OW kill the rest of the pods as the trickle in.
By maintaining a lower number of advent but increasing the quality with lower infiltration you do a TON of really positive things for the overall game. I will just use March as an example, but you can get the idea, replace "whatever normal enemy you face with X enemy you will face in the next month or so"
  • It actually makes the mission harder. Currently increasing the number of enemies doesn't really make it harder, since you just sit in a hole the whole mission and you really are only fighting what is in front of you and in range of your soldiers, at most that is maybe 10 advent, with the threat of new ranks replacing them as you kill them. But realistically outside of a potential swarm early...which you just blow up with liberal use of explosives...you are only fighting one pod at a time, you probably kill a couple enemies before the pod is in range, and the pod has to oftentimes dash through OW to get into range meaning you never really take shots from the enemy. So adding more enemies on a mission doesn't actually increase the difficulty, when it is really just like 8 mini missions of 8 troopers vs a squad of 10. Adding one or two stronger enemies per pod though, means you are not wiping out the pod, you either kill the weak troopers and have something scary, or kill the scary thing(s) and still have the troopers. From a game perspective, replacing 1 trooper in an existing pod of 8 with a muton, is more dangerous than just adding another pod of 8 troopers. That 5th or 6 pod of 8 with a muton or two is far scarier than your 8th pod of 8 troopers. So adding a harder enemy makes the game harder FASTER than just adding more enemies.
  • Reduce the resources BUT reward the difficulty in a non-snowballing way. From a straight monetary value 9 (8 for the new pod, 1 for the trooper the muton replaced) trooper corpses are worth more than 1 muton/mec/beserker/ANYTHING corpse. A muton corpse doesn't really sell for much more or render into much more than a trooper corpse let alone 9 that they are effectively replacing (significant reduction in monetary value of doing a 0% raid) BUT if you take them out now you did get a reward, you get to do the autopsy research a month or so earlier, not game breaking enough to snowball, just a small advantage IF you want to invest into it (you get it early so it would take longer to do the research) compared to say 3 laser weapons or 3 suits of predator armor that the extra 10-20 trooper corpses just bought you. So going at 0% isn't going to yield much more in regards to rewards for completing it.
  • Increases options as far as research paths. This ties into pushing up corpses earlier. This gives you a boost regarding specific tools, are better grenades worth delaying better armor? I don't know maybe in one play through that answer is yes, maybe in another that answer is no. and you get those kind of questions every single month (just like you did in LW1 when you got a corpse a month earlier than you other wise would have).
  • It increases squad load out options. Currently when you just throw more and more enemies onto a map it forces you more and more into a corner. You can't play more aggressive load outs since odds are you will pull more pods, and if you are going to hold back that assault/flamer/sword swinging shinobi for 2/3 of the mission, why not bring someone with more range? If you reduce the number of pods it opens up the map more, it reduces the chances of mass activation when playing more in your face classes...which is good because if you are fighting harder enemies earlier you are going to want the power that some of those close range classes/specs bring. Besides who doesn't like shotgunning or slicing advent in the face!
So ideally I would like to see Advent on these missions start at say 12-16 Advent (12 at 200% infiltration and low advent strength, 16 at 200% infiltration and higher advent strength), move up to 16-20 Advent at 150% infiltration (again differences in advent strength), and 20-24 at 100% infiltration. All of these would have advent enemies that you are used to seeing (so in march this would be troopers, sectoids, drones, and maybe some sneks). Once you drop below 100% infiltration you really start ramping up the quality of the soldiers. So 75% infiltration you are looking at 32 Advent with enemies a month ahead of what you would expect. 50% you are looking at 40 Advent with enemies a month ahead of what you expect. 25% you are looking at 48 advent with enemies 1-2 months ahead of what you expect. Finally 0% would be 56 enemies with enemies you would expect 2 months ahead of where you are. So yes theoretically you COULD do a 0% and it would have a MASSIVE payoff, but lets face it you would earn that pay off.

Then you have the addition of a command pod with an ranking advent officer (higher health and more armor) at anything below 100% infiltration. Basically they were in the area to help secure and clean up the mess initially (REBEL SCUM!!) then once things seemed in order they moved onto other more pressing issues leaving the low grunts to pick up the spilled boxes.


TL;DR The easiest fix for 0% supply raids is just increasing the quality of the troops you face more so than the quantity (why not both!) this still rewards those that attempt to do them at lower infiltration %, through getting their hands on technology a little earlier, while not being super snow bally from a resource perspective, AND providing heavy dissuasion for trying to run them at low % infiltration.
Manifest
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by Manifest »

In the same vein, maybe... I dunno. Increase the supply reward on them and keep it static (250-300?) and make them reward no corpses, or very very few corpses (at least one of each type you kill.)

Or increase the supply reward and make them reward no corpses, but introduce another way to get corpses?...

Also the team does not want to increase force level so you can't get advanced corpses too early. Like, Muton Elite Incendiary Rounds, or Andromedon Advanced Grenades/Launcher.

Then you could just do one 0% supply raid and never have to worry about it for a while now that you've got a baseline of advanced corpses.
wei270
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:07 am

Re: Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by wei270 »

I mostly agree with the O,P However i do think having more enemy is also challenging.

increase the force level of the mission is a very good idea :D for those below 100% infiltration supply raid and maybe even trooper column.
but you really don't need to worry about advent body count. A better way to reduce reward in my opinion is put a % reduction on all resources reward based on infiltration less than 100% this way said if you go in at 0% infitration you are only getting 50% of the bodies, supply, alloy and Elerium.
(maybe some Elerium cores as well those that you didn't pick from loot)

having larger advent size increase your mission risky greatly as the greatest worry for me in those raid mission is triggering multiple pods, if you reduce the number for pod i can just bring concentrated fire power on those pods one by one and that is far less risk to me because we have lots of tool for crown control in long war 2( even if alien are stronger a flash banned and suppressed alien is almost 0 threat)
Bu6613man
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:44 pm

Re: Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by Bu6613man »

I'm in may, and i've done 3 supply raids, and can confirm that they snowball you like no other.

On the other hand, they've all been really small infiltration times. Often, 0% - 10% raids have been the only real option. I think that they are designed to be a high-risk/high-reward sort of option. By that logic, there shouldn't be infiltration times on these at all. It should be a "launch mission" sort of affair and you should have to launch right away (or very soon, say 12 hours).

This way, they could set the strength of these raids by advent strength and month, and balance them exactly.

0% supply raids essentially exploit the mechanic that makes long war 2 difficult. Infiltration only really creates much additional difficulty on timed missions. The difference between 100% and 200% HQ's has been pretty negligible. The difference between infiltration levels on the network towers, on the other hand, can be really impactful.
RXTXK
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:55 pm

Re: Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by RXTXK »

so by bring new baddies in earlier you increase the incentive for good players to do them as it opens up new research from the corpses earlier....
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by Tuhalu »

If you did bring in higher quality troopers, you'd have to bring in Advanced versions of troops rather than entirely new ones. For instance, a Sectoid Commander instead of a Sectoid would be pretty horrifying on the first supply raid.

The other parts of the problem are the fundamental difficulty in getting any kind of timer on a supply raid and the preference of supply raid (and troop convoy) pods to stack to 8 before adding new pods. The first forces you to go in at low infiltration and the second punishes you for not bringing the most number of troops possible.
brunodema
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:45 pm

Re: Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by brunodema »

Tuhalu wrote:If you did bring in higher quality troopers, you'd have to bring in Advanced versions of troops rather than entirely new ones. For instance, a Sectoid Commander instead of a Sectoid would be pretty horrifying on the first supply raid.
I believe that this is a very nice way to effectively increase quality but not quantity. If in 0% Supply Raids in early game you started facing Heavy Grenadiers, Sergeants, Shock Troopers and so on, it would be very hard to kill them (due to hp and armor) and their corpses would still count as regular troopers/officers, just as Sectoid Commanders and Elite Najas would count as regular corpses. As the game goes on this mechanic would start to wear off, but the sheer difficulty of killing late game enemies coupled with DE research would balance that as well.
marceror
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:47 am

Re: Increase quality more so than quantity on 0%

Post by marceror »

Logically, why would Advent always send away their more powerful units stationed in an area, just because XCOM has been infiltrating there? If those higher tier units are in the area, than they should potentially show on the mission.

It at least makes sense with the current system that with good infiltration XCOM can find the best time to make their move, when enemy patrols are lightest.

For my part, I'm not a fan of the suggestion, and very much like the current approach taken in LW2.
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