Plasma vs Coil weapons

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Meme Turtle
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Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Meme Turtle »

Judging by the damage tables here: http://ufopaedia.org/index.php/Weapons_(LW2), plasma weapons offer(with the exception of cannon) only a very small damage increase of +1 in comparison with coil guns. Moreover, this damage boost is usually mitigated by the armor penetration property of coil weaponry, thus making research investment in plasma guns a huge waste of time and resources.

I suggest to slightly buff plasma weaponry by either increasing their damage or giving them aim and penetration bonuses. Considering how expensive those weapons, they are supposed to be far better than previous weapon tier.
wei270
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by wei270 »

but remember they also give higher cit damage so for some one who can crit on a more consistence bases that is +2.5 and it is +1.5 damage per standard upgrade btw.

so with that logic assaults who can rapid fire and sniper with their precision shot benefit a lot more from plasma.

if we are to buff plasma maybe we can instead rise its lower bound damage by 1 or 2 (ie damage increase of 0.5 or 1) because by the time we get to plasma the damage range is HUGE and if feel like the lack of consistence is a bit of liability

also while we are at it maybe we can give a sound reduction to mag weaspons :lol:
Meme Turtle
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Meme Turtle »

Yeah, I remember about the higher crit damage. Thing is only assault and sharpshooter can crit reliably, while other classes(esp. who use smg) not going to see much improvement.

I would rather add aim and penetration bonuses to plasma weaponry instead of increasing damage. Considering how many enemies have tactical sense in my campaign, +5 aim on plasma guns would be nice.
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by mattprice516 »

In general, Plasma weapons have an increase of 1.5 over Coil weapons - same as other tier increases.
Meme Turtle
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Meme Turtle »

mattprice516 wrote:In general, Plasma weapons have an increase of 1.5 over Coil weapons - same as other tier increases.
True, except two things:
1) Coil guns have 1 armor penetration, while plasma weapons do not. So, attacking an armored target(and most enemies by late game have at least 1 armor) with plasma on average gives only 0.5 dmg increase over coil.
2) Overall cost of plasma weaponry: 150 supplies only to research basic rifles+60s to build one.

All in all, the problem here is not damage itself, but rather cost efficiency of entire plasma tier. There is no point in researching plasma weapons unless there is nothing else left to research. There are more useful and efficient topics for research like armor and utility items.

I propose to buff plasma tier slightly to make rushing plasma weapons more appealing.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

wei270 wrote:but remember they also give higher cit damage so for some one who can crit on a more consistence bases that is +2.5 and it is +1.5 damage per standard upgrade btw.

so with that logic assaults who can rapid fire and sniper with their precision shot benefit a lot more from plasma.

if we are to buff plasma maybe we can instead rise its lower bound damage by 1 or 2 (ie damage increase of 0.5 or 1) because by the time we get to plasma the damage range is HUGE and if feel like the lack of consistence is a bit of liability

also while we are at it maybe we can give a sound reduction to mag weaspons :lol:
LW1 had a similar issue with guass/plasma, the solution was a an engineering/foundry project that let plasma ultimately be +2 on the damage table, with an item to make it +3
trihero
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by trihero »

Plasma weapons are plenty appealing; if you want the best damage in the game then plasma is it. Coil is not it. If you want to invest in the best damage in the game vs utility/defensive items is up to you whether it's worth it or not. It's good that plasma isn't so obvious, otherwise what you're proposing is to make plasma a no brainer let's research it right away kind of thing.

Also recall that plasma weapon costs are virtually identical to coil weapons (with the exception of an extra core here and there). You are not saving any elerium by making coils instead of plasma is what I'm trying to say, and elerium is the limiting factor in the end game.

And theoretically, according to joinrbs, you should be able to beat L/I with laser weaponry + predator, so everything above those are worthless by your way of thinking.
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Valaska
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Valaska »

trihero wrote:Plasma weapons are plenty appealing; if you want the best damage in the game then plasma is it. Coil is not it. If you want to invest in the best damage in the game vs utility/defensive items is up to you whether it's worth it or not. It's good that plasma isn't so obvious, otherwise what you're proposing is to make plasma a no brainer let's research it right away kind of thing.

Also recall that plasma weapon costs are virtually identical to coil weapons (with the exception of an extra core here and there). You are not saving any elerium by making coils instead of plasma is what I'm trying to say, and elerium is the limiting factor in the end game.

And theoretically, according to joinrbs, you should be able to beat L/I with laser weaponry + predator, so everything above those are worthless by your way of thinking.
Basically this, after the investment of plasma research you are basically only having to chose between using a core or not. You also get an upgrade from the Helix Canon to the Phase Canon, Shard, and the Plasma Lance. Three absolutely superior weapons. Gunners and Rangers also really benefit from the extra damage as well.
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Devon_v
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Devon_v »

Playstyle may factor in as well. If you're used to using explosive to strip armor off of pods, then the point of penetration on the coilguns is moot and plasma is fully superior. If you want your troops to equip AP rounds and use coils to just outright ignore armor, that's also a valid approach.

Each tier of weapons was more "different" than "better" in LW1. While damage always went up, there were little boni that gave you a reason to hold on to certain weapons even when a new tier was unlocked. I do miss things like the Beam Sniper, Alloy Cannon, and Gauss Long Rifle being real stand-out weapons that you might hold on to long after new tech came along, but the basic concept remains.
trihero
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by trihero »

I also suggest you take a look at the beam canon's damage, it gets a vast increase in damage over coil, more than just 1 or 2 damage points. I imagine this is to balance out the lack of crit % that the sniper rifle gets and the raw damage the shotgun gets.

Also, the plasma rifle has an additional weapon slot (so baseline 4). It turns out there are many favorable benefits to plasma weapons if you should choose to spend the time to get them.
aimlessgun
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by aimlessgun »

Are they appealing enough? This is hard to say as a whole because they are separate research items and all have unique bonuses. Breaking it down...

Rifles Tech
+1.5 damage on rifle, +1 damage on Pistol and SMG, +1 crit damage on all.
+1 mod slot on Rifle, this is pretty valuable especially for Rangers are you can have Ext Mags/Autoloader/Scope/Hair Trigger all at once.
-infiltration time on SMG, this appears to be a very small amount though.

Cannon Tech
+2.5 dmg to cannons and spark weapon, +1 crit damage, +5 aim for Spark. This is a pretty big upgrade.

Sniper Rifle Tech
+1.5 damage, +1 crit damage, +crit chance (I don't know how much).

Shotgun Tech
+1.5 damage, +3 crit damage. You can almost look at this as +4.5 damage with a close range shotgunner.

Costs are significantly higher, the main ones being Crystals and Cores. Supply and alloys are nearly unlimited lategame but in my experience elerium can run low.

Armor pierce is not always a factor. Yes it's on all the 'important' enemies, but being able to one shot unarmored troopers is pretty important too.

I wouldn't research any of these before something like Warden Armor, but at the very least Rifles and Cannons are quite appealing.
Last edited by aimlessgun on Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

Devon_v wrote:Playstyle may factor in as well. If you're used to using explosive to strip armor off of pods, then the point of penetration on the coilguns is moot and plasma is fully superior. If you want your troops to equip AP rounds and use coils to just outright ignore armor, that's also a valid approach.

Each tier of weapons was more "different" than "better" in LW1. While damage always went up, there were little boni that gave you a reason to hold on to certain weapons even when a new tier was unlocked. I do miss things like the Beam Sniper, Alloy Cannon, and Gauss Long Rifle being real stand-out weapons that you might hold on to long after new tech came along, but the basic concept remains.
I took the guass long rifle to the final mission on a pure base damage sniper in LW1. Precision shot + Max Damage = MAXIMUM FATALITY.
Sines
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Sines »

I kinda like Plasma Weapons where they are. They're not a huge upgrade from Coil Guns, but they're also the end-game weapons, and they are objectively better than the Coil Weapons in all cases. I don't mind the final upgrade being cost-inefficient compared to the stuff that comes before it.

Honestly, the big issue I have right now is Magnetic Weapons. They don't have the aim of Lasers, or the armor pen of Coils. They aren't unusually more damaging than Lasers. And they're not particularly cost efficient. It seems to me like it might be for the best to skip Magnetic Weapons, to essentially commit to going to the end of the Coil Research line once you start researching Mags, and only buy a mag weapon for certain units you intend to send on particularly hard missions.

Lasers: First upgrade, largest proportional damage boost, +aim, relatively cheap.
Coil: Penultimate upgrade, more effective for their level against armored enemies. Very cost-efficient compared to Plasma.
Plasma: Final upgrade. Best damage, even against armored targets. A few other weapon specific bonuses like improved crit damage. Highly cost-inefficient, but nothing better.
Mag: Necessary to research Coil. Decent purchase on Snipers, Rangers, Assaults and Gunners who have good enough aim on their own, if you have the money.

Mag weapons just feel left out. More so than the other three weapon tiers, they feel like they're merely a transitional stage. All other tiers have something to be excited over. Mag weapons are just... there if you want 'em.
trihero
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by trihero »

Honestly, the big issue I have right now is Magnetic Weapons. They don't have the aim of Lasers, or the armor pen of Coils. They aren't unusually more damaging than Lasers. And they're not particularly cost efficient. It seems to me like it might be for the best to skip Magnetic Weapons, to essentially commit to going to the end of the Coil Research line once you start researching Mags, and only buy a mag weapon for certain units you intend to send on particularly hard missions.
I'm with you mang, but for whatever reason the majority of posters here seem to be super excited about skipping lasers and going straight to mags. I don't get the hype, having tried it. It just delays your first liberation and laser aim is pretty nice.
Sines
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Sines »

trihero wrote:I'm with you mang, but for whatever reason the majority of posters here seem to be super excited about skipping lasers and going straight to mags. I don't get the hype, having tried it. It just delays your first liberation and laser aim is pretty nice.
Actually, I think the only real selling point of Mag Weapons is if you skip lasers. You can get to Mag and Coil Weapons sooner, and while you'll have to research lasers eventually anyway to get Plasma, as we've established, it's not terribly efficient, so it's not a big deal to put that off for a while once you have Coil.

Granted, I would still never skip lasers. Fast, easy, cheap and extra accuracy when you need it most. Not to mention, you have to hope you get lucky and get enough engineers and scientists early on in order to actually research and build mag weapons (or you buy them, which makes their purchase more prohibitive). But a rush for Mag Weapons, if you intend to skip Lasers, isn't a terrible idea, just a bit of a risky one. At least then Mags will stand out as your first upgrade.
trihero
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by trihero »

What stands out most is delaying liberation, since I don't like to hit the HQ without a couple upgrades. Waiting for mag upgrades put me like a month behind where I normally would have tried to do a liberation with lasers.
wei270
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by wei270 »

i guess if you are lucky with scientist you could run mag rush and then quicky preceded to end the game with mag because a good mag rush puts you far far a head of enemy development curve
Jadiel
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Jadiel »

I've been experimenting with Mag Rush, and while I was initially unimpressed, it's really grown on me. I can reliably get Mag online by the first week of May, and it's a huge upgrade. Given that you can't start lib chains until April (week 2?) in any case, I don't feel like it significantly delays my liberation, as I typically liberate my first region at the end of May (with Adv Mag), and my second in mid June.

You do need to save supplies, and you also need to be willing to put some extra effort into Extract VIP missions. You also lean heavily on consumable-based soldiers (i.e. Grenadiers & Technicals) through April, but seeing as I'm typically only doing Troop Columns (and stealth missions, obviously), I don't find it feels that hard. And hitting mag when the aliens are still fielding 4hp troopers is just crazy...
NephilimNexus
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by NephilimNexus »

Don't plasma weapons have an inherent armor shredding ability?
Fanguru
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by Fanguru »

Main reason to use coil weapons: they look and sound so much better then plasma. I personally apologize to each soldier when I upgrade them to a plasma weapon. Sorry dude(tte), you can have your shiny back when the world is free.
justdont
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by justdont »

Fanguru wrote:Main reason to use coil weapons: they look and sound so much better then plasma. I personally apologize to each soldier when I upgrade them to a plasma weapon. Sorry dude(tte), you can have your shiny back when the world is free.
There's a mod around that swaps coil tech and plasma tech (while leaving coils with their AP, so tier 3 -> tier 4 upgrade looks more appealing).
RapidFire
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Re: Plasma vs Coil weapons

Post by RapidFire »

Fanguru wrote:Main reason to use coil weapons: they look and sound so much better then plasma. I personally apologize to each soldier when I upgrade them to a plasma weapon. Sorry dude(tte), you can have your shiny back when the world is free.
:) Yes, that will be my only sorrow. I'm too much of a perfectionist to not upgrade to the best weapon, but the cost and the nice graphics will let me delay the introduction of plasma until I have plenty of money, except perhaps on my assaults where I want to max out the critical hits. The +1 AP is a nice bonus as well. The only minor exception is the sniper rifle. It looks great, but it also looks like he is carrying a bus in his hands.
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