Are Flashbangs overpowered

[LordYanaek]

Whereas with sting grenades you're already having the best and the number one of all LW2 world, at no cost and no research cost.

OK, quoting only a single line isn't a great idea but that one really made me laugh.
At no cost except bringing a SSgt soldier whose sole purpose is to shut down a group of enemies 3 times per battle (or 4 if he gives up survivability). Sure at MSgt he can do it a lot more, which means he does only that and he reached a level at which other soldiers can clear an entire pod on their own! Not exactly "no cost" to me!

All those discussions about sting grenades being the absolute best CC in the game omit an important aspect : you need a dedicated soldier to use them. Why does it look strange that a soldier totally specialized in CC has better CC then anyone else. It's like saying a Sniper Rifle is OP because a nest sniper is the best tool to remove the most dangerous enemy from a fight!

It's OK to discuss other ways to CC the enemies, but remember that a CC specialist should be better then anyone who "can also do some CC" or any jack of all trades you can imagine.

PsiOps are an entire topic on their own.

[gimrah]

Eh. They don't kill anything. They only last one turn. Flashbanged enemies can still shoot at you.

They fill an extremely important role but I don't feel they are overpowered. More just necessary. If you nerfed them then gunners would just become even more powerful relative to other classes. And we'd still get slaughtered.

Poison lasts multiple turns and does damage.

[Tuhalu]

I don't actually use Flashbangs much at all. Snipe/shoot/grenade high value targets before they become a problem. Shutdown or Control a robot. Suppress everything else. If you are still getting overwhelmed, ask your Arc Gunner Assault to Chain Lightning them all for a 1-2 turn stun.

I guess Support Grenadiers are nice, but they aren't the only solution to the problem.

[justdont]

At no cost except bringing a SSgt soldier whose sole purpose is to shut down a group of enemies 3 times per battle (or 4 if he gives up survivability). Sure at MSgt he can do it a lot more, which means he does only that and he reached a level at which other soldiers can clear an entire pod on their own! Not exactly "no cost" to me!

You have no better options in the entire game. So yes, it's still "no cost". There aren't any better crowd control. You either can have a dedicated support grenadier (who still can also do basic shots most of the time), or a different soldier dedicated to crowd-control, who will be inevitably less reliable than a support grenadier. Or you can go with no crowd control. Which surely works just fine on Rookie + save scumming.

[amgarrak1]

Flashbangs are OP because they offer the best AOE CC in the game at the start of the game and stay that way the entire playthrough. I think the perfect solution would be to nerf them slightly(AOE and maybe aim penalty) and add an improved version for late game(which would also obviously require additional resourses for every new flashbang).

[Ithuriel]

I think maybe giving psi ops some special aoe control abilities or giving gas grenades some special effects will help balance out the so-called 'overpowered' flashbangs and support grenadiers. Just don't nerf them, please...

Ah, I think I spot somebody who's never played LW1- it's cute! They had these things called Psybangs where were basically what they sound like- imba Flashbangs that only psions could use. I remember my psychic support grenadier- her name was Megaera, and she was totally balanced.

[trihero]

Next we're going to start claiming SMGs are overpowered because they don't need to be upgraded to fulfill their role of stealth + mobility...oh wait a minute...maybe they are OP too....

[Sir_Dr_D]

No. smg's are probably underpowered in that people use them as boots of speed and not a weapon So people don't think they need to upgrade.

And it is fine if flashbangs stay relevant through out the game. They can be given as a perk after all, so they sort of need to, just like smoke grenades. But they were a lot better balanced in lw1.

[trihero]

No. smg's are probably underpowered in that people use them as boots of speed and not a weapon So people don't think they need to upgrade.

And it is fine if flashbangs stay relevant through out the game. They can be given as a perk after all, so they sort of need to, just like smoke grenades. But they were a lot better balanced in lw1.

I sadly don't find upgrading smgs to be worth it. The hit rate is abysmal so I barely notice the difference someone with a scramgun vs conventional smg.

[Devon_v]

It also breaks active overwatch (if the unit was not disoriented before).

That was a bug which has been fixed. Flashbangs always clear Overwatch, and although no message is displayed, they reset the duration of the Disoriented effect.

[Ithuriel]

Sorry for necro- but are Gas Grenades classified as damaging grenades or support grenades? e.g. should you take them on a support or a destructive grenadier? I can't find the info anywhere

[stefan3iii]

Sorry for necro- but are Gas Grenades classified as damaging grenades or support grenades? e.g. should you take them on a support or a destructive grenadier? I can't find the info anywhere

They are damage grenades, and are basically an inferior flashbang.

[trihero]

I was idly wondering about gas grenades myself, in a theoretical sense you could use them to "zone" enemies since the AI tries not to run through hazards (this is way more reliable than using fire bombs since fire bombs don't always set the ground on fire, and the radius is much less), I just don't think anyone has been creative enough to really try it out.

[Ethereal Commander]

I also feel flashbangs are op. You get them at the start of the game, and they are aoe disorientate grenades. They are a one trick pony that is used as a crutch because they are so so powerful, they are a tool like anything else, but for their power they should probably be a mid game research tier which you have to made individually. Or they should not disorientate, but should instead be given a special classification that is the same as disorientate, but apply -10 aim instead of -20. They already prevent enemies from using most abilities in the game except for melee, I don't feel they should have as strong an impact on unit aim penalties.

[Ithuriel]

Sorry for necro- but are Gas Grenades classified as damaging grenades or support grenades? e.g. should you take them on a support or a destructive grenadier? I can't find the info anywhere

They are damage grenades, and are basically an inferior flashbang.

Why do you think that they're an inferior flashbang? They provide a roughly equivalent aim and mobility bonus, do slight damage over time, last at least 2 turns, and can be used for zoning. I'm not saying they're crazy good- flashbangs are free and can be buffed with perks- but they're not half bad, especially since they give a damage grenadier some decent utility.

[nightwyrm]

Sorry for necro- but are Gas Grenades classified as damaging grenades or support grenades? e.g. should you take them on a support or a destructive grenadier? I can't find the info anywhere

They are damage grenades, and are basically an inferior flashbang.

Why do you think that they're an inferior flashbang? They provide a roughly equivalent aim and mobility bonus, do slight damage over time, last at least 2 turns, and can be used for zoning. I'm not saying they're crazy good- flashbangs are free and can be buffed with perks- but they're not half bad, especially since they give a damage grenadier some decent utility.

I feel Gas Grenade is missing the most important thing flashbangs does, shutting off bs abilities. Also doesn't affect sneks, whose bs you really want to turn off.

[Ithuriel]

They are damage grenades, and are basically an inferior flashbang.

Why do you think that they're an inferior flashbang? They provide a roughly equivalent aim and mobility bonus, do slight damage over time, last at least 2 turns, and can be used for zoning. I'm not saying they're crazy good- flashbangs are free and can be buffed with perks- but they're not half bad, especially since they give a damage grenadier some decent utility.

I feel Gas Grenade is missing the most important thing flashbangs does, shutting off bs abilities. Also doesn't affect sneks, whose bs you really want to turn off.

AFAIK Gas Grenades do shut off BS abilities? I thought you couldn't, for instance, launch a grenade while poisoned? ...actually I'm starting to suspect I'm crazy, been so long since I had somebody poisoned >.<

[stefan3iii]

Why do you think that they're an inferior flashbang? They provide a roughly equivalent aim and mobility bonus, do slight damage over time, last at least 2 turns, and can be used for zoning. I'm not saying they're crazy good- flashbangs are free and can be buffed with perks- but they're not half bad, especially since they give a damage grenadier some decent utility.

I feel Gas Grenade is missing the most important thing flashbangs does, shutting off bs abilities. Also doesn't affect sneks, whose bs you really want to turn off.

AFAIK Gas Grenades do shut off BS abilities? I thought you couldn't, for instance, launch a grenade while poisoned? ...actually I'm starting to suspect I'm crazy, been so long since I had somebody poisoned >.<

As far as I know poison doesn't shut off abilities. So rocketeers can still rocket and such.

[gimrah]

They are good but the game is balanced around them. You may argue about grenadier abilities or relative weakness of alternatives, but flashbacks themselves are fine and frankly necessary given number of enemies vs xcom killing power.

[stefan3iii]

They are good but the game is balanced around them. You may argue about grenadier abilities or relative weakness of alternatives, but flashbacks themselves are fine and frankly necessary given number of enemies vs xcom killing power.

Whether you nerf flashbangs or buff other grenades, something would ideally be done. As it is right now, it's kind of strange that the default starting gear is better than late game grenades like acid.

[trihero]

Well they took that philosophy with ammo too apparently; the best ammos are the low tier corpse-less AP and tracer rounds.

I don't understand EMP grenades/bombs myself, way too situational, damage is rather close to regular frags, and there are so many other better ways to deal with robots. It's a lucky day if you can catch 2 mechs in one blast, and I just don't think that's worth it, since it's not even guaranteed you stun them with the secondary effect. And since you can't guaranteed stun, they're bad against full hp codexes as well.

IIRC in the inis emp bombs actually don't generate sound, which is interesting but hardly worth it.

[bountygiver]

They are damage grenades, and are basically an inferior flashbang.

Why do you think that they're an inferior flashbang? They provide a roughly equivalent aim and mobility bonus, do slight damage over time, last at least 2 turns, and can be used for zoning. I'm not saying they're crazy good- flashbangs are free and can be buffed with perks- but they're not half bad, especially since they give a damage grenadier some decent utility.

I feel Gas Grenade is missing the most important thing flashbangs does, shutting off bs abilities. Also doesn't affect sneks, whose bs you really want to turn off.

install suppressable targeting abilities, then poisoned units get 25% reduction in free targeting range (configurable in INI)
This is a special feature the mod compability guys miss when they say you don't need this mod

[JulianSkies]

Well they took that philosophy with ammo too apparently; the best ammos are the low tier corpse-less AP and tracer rounds.

I don't understand EMP grenades/bombs myself, way too situational, damage is rather close to regular frags, and there are so many other better ways to deal with robots. It's a lucky day if you can catch 2 mechs in one blast, and I just don't think that's worth it, since it's not even guaranteed you stun them with the secondary effect. And since you can't guaranteed stun, they're bad against full hp codexes as well.

IIRC in the inis emp bombs actually don't generate sound, which is interesting but hardly worth it.

In vanilla at least EMP bombs/ammo were more or less "Boss Killer" ammo since the biggest baddest enemies/damage sponges (Codices, Gatekeepers, Sectopods, Andromendons [kinda]) were all vulnerable to them. LW2 doesn't see nearly enough of them to warrant that status anymore.

[Tuhalu]

Would people feel that Sting Grenades were more balanced as a perk if they had -1 or -2 radius compared to Flashbangs?

[stefan3iii]

Would people feel that Sting Grenades were more balanced as a perk if they had -1 or -2 radius compared to Flashbangs?

I think that would help. Other issue is that damage focused grenadiers are usurped by Shredders. When you need AOE damage or cover destruction you're better off using a shredder than a grenade, so if those were nerfed that may bring back a totally damage focused grenadier using Tandem Warheads.