Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

wobuffet
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Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by wobuffet »

So, xwynns has been killing the rescue missions by just bringing a Shinobi Officer/Leader to invoke Oscar Mike into Command to give the escapee 3 super-powered blue moves in a single turn. I'm sure PI is already on this, but just some quick ideas on how to balance this:
  1. Oscar Mike ends turn
  2. Oscar Mike ends turn and hunkers the Officer
  3. Oscar Mike only affects soldiers, not civilians/VIPs
  4. Command can only be used on soldiers, not civilians/VIPs
  5. Oscar Mike breaks Concealment
  6. Command breaks Concealment
Of these, I like 2 (imagine an Officer ducking behind cover and yelling "GO GO GO" to everyone in sight) and 5 (again, "GO GO GO") best myself.
Jadiel
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Jadiel »

I think the problem with all these suggestions is that they kill the ability. OM into Command is about the only use for the ability in the game. If you nerf it, all officers will just pick up Focus Fire.
Saph7
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Saph7 »

Yeah, pretty much. I can't see the point of OM for anything except extractions.

If you really want it nerfed, just go with number 4, 'Command doesn't affect civilians'.
Ithuriel
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Ithuriel »

Saph7 wrote:Yeah, pretty much. I can't see the point of OM for anything except extractions.

If you really want it nerfed, just go with number 4, 'Command doesn't affect civilians'.
Honestly, why not make civilians immune to Officer abilities in general? It doesn't make sense that they have the training to follow military orders and maneuvers...
TheCiroth
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by TheCiroth »

I am really not seeing that this is that big of a deal. I very RARELY use either for my rescue missions. Most of the time I don't need it. I think today is the second time I've used OM and Command to force a VIP to get away from a pod.
trihero
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by trihero »

I really don't think we need to nerf these mechanics so much as focus on making 5-6 man missions actually rewarding/favorable to do.

Stealth missions aren't guaranteed successes depending on map layout and a bit of luck, plus there are events that make stealth missions super hard to do (vigilance, chrysallids). They get quite difficult to do as advent strength simply goes up, as well.

The idea is to stop focusing on nerfing stealth missions/0% supply raids, and instead spend quality time making sure 5-6 man are by far the most favorable, rewarding, plentiful, and doable.
nightwyrm
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by nightwyrm »

trihero wrote:I really don't think we need to nerf these mechanics so much as focus on making 5-6 man missions actually rewarding/favorable to do.

Stealth missions aren't guaranteed successes depending on map layout and a bit of luck, plus there are events that make stealth missions super hard to do (vigilance, chrysallids). They get quite difficult to do as advent strength simply goes up, as well.

The idea is to stop focusing on nerfing stealth missions/0% supply raids, and instead spend quality time making sure 5-6 man are by far the most favorable, rewarding, plentiful, and doable.
I would give you a thumbs up if this forum uses them.

The mission problems you mentioned are problems because doing those missions with 5-6 men is very unfavorable. Nerfing the current tactics does nothing to change the metagame if those tactics are still the best/only way to do them coz of other factors.
cerebrawl
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by cerebrawl »

nightwyrm wrote:
trihero wrote:I really don't think we need to nerf these mechanics so much as focus on making 5-6 man missions actually rewarding/favorable to do.

Stealth missions aren't guaranteed successes depending on map layout and a bit of luck, plus there are events that make stealth missions super hard to do (vigilance, chrysallids). They get quite difficult to do as advent strength simply goes up, as well.

The idea is to stop focusing on nerfing stealth missions/0% supply raids, and instead spend quality time making sure 5-6 man are by far the most favorable, rewarding, plentiful, and doable.
I would give you a thumbs up if this forum uses them.

The mission problems you mentioned are problems because doing those missions with 5-6 men is very unfavorable. Nerfing the current tactics does nothing to change the metagame if those tactics are still the best/only way to do them coz of other factors.
There's some mods that change how you can play LW2 fairly significantly, such the "an easier war" series, especially the infiltration mod. ( http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =847495317 )

I rather favor "mod it" solutions over heavy handed balancing changes, in both directions. I agree somewhat that there's few missions that really require a 5-6 man squad, but it's quite tweakable. For example you can change the infiltration squadsize mechanics as the above mod does, while simultaneously raising the number of enemies that show up on low/all enemy presence levels, thus making it easier to bring more men, while also adding incentive to do so.

Mods that add more loot drops give further incentive to going loud and killing everything.
marceror
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by marceror »

Not sure why some folks are so bent out of shape that certain abilities can make the game easier. I've seen Xavier complaining about this, but he also has a self proclaimed 1,000+ hours testing the game (it might have been hyperbole), and instinctively knows how to avoid a lot of difficult situations.

Moving around the map without getting spotted, and getting to the VIPs without being spotted, in my experience does in fact require a level of skill and luck. If you've developed the skill over hundreds of hours, and you happen to get lucky, who cares if the mission is easier. I'd say, you've earned it.

I really haven't used Oscar Mike much, because I like the alternative ability, but again, I don't see a major issue that a military officer is able to assist a civilian in being more effective in their escape.

Sometimes things in real life, if executed well, go smoothly. Why do some seem to consider that a problem in LW2? :?
Alketi
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Alketi »

marceror wrote:Not sure why some folks are so bent out of shape that certain abilities can make the game easier. I've seen Xavier complaining about this, but he also has a self proclaimed 1,000+ hours testing the game (it might have been hyperbole), and instinctively knows how to avoid a lot of difficult situations.

Sometimes things in real life, if executed well, go smoothly. Why do some seem to consider that a problem in LW2? :?
+1,000

The game is in danger of being re-balanced around the two players who know absolutely every facet, ability, and mechanic -- knowledge which is not presented IN GAME, nor fully in the Wikipedia. At some point one should ask themselves if this is truly representative of the general LW2 population. As a UI designer myself, we call this "filtering" the feedback. Just because super-user (or super-player) #1 believes something doesn't mean it applies to ALL users/players.

All game designers with any sense of self-awareness, should be libertarians IRL because at some point they will be bludgeoned into realizing that central planning leads to drastically unintended consequences. And, it's not because people aren't behaving "properly". It's because people always act in their own self-interest.

PEOPLE ARE STEALTHING BECAUSE:

1. There isn't enough time on the infiltration timer.
2. There isn't enough of a reward to kill things
3. The reinforcement mechanic requires LATE activation of pods or you'll get swamped
4. The size, speed, and scope of the world-wide battle combined with your limited soldier count and the importance of mission completions all incentivize the player into ultra-small squad engagements.

So, Liberation 2 and 3 are deliberately difficult to detect --

Lets say you find one of these ultra-important missions and there are 3 days remaining at a Light enemy level. You have ONLY two choices:

1. Skip the mission
2. Stealth it

Do we wonder why so many choose #2? And, if #2 is effectively removed then that leaves only one choice.

tl;dr: Address the real problem, don't treat the symptoms.
marceror
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by marceror »

I think another reason people are stealthing is because, they enjoy stealthing every now and again. I currently have 9 squads in my barracks, and 1 of those is a dedicated stealth/recon squad. I pick them to go on missions where my intention if to avoid combat - I try to keep a 2/1 ratio of shinobis and specialists in that squad. The other 8 squads are balanced for combat.

I love the combat, but I also love the diversion I get from doing some quiet missions -- which often ends up falling apart anyways, which makes it even more awesome.

My hope is that the stealth option remains a core option, as I for one, enjoy the variety it creates.
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Devon_v
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Devon_v »

I enjoy stealthing because it pissed me off that vanilla presented itself as a game with a stealth mechanic, then outright cheated to prevent you from using it except in the one way the devs intended.

The game is finally about the OBJECTIVE, not shooting everything until you win. Stealth is FUN.
trihero
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by trihero »

Devon_v wrote:I enjoy stealthing because it pissed me off that vanilla presented itself as a game with a stealth mechanic, then outright cheated to prevent you from using it except in the one way the devs intended.

The game is finally about the OBJECTIVE, not shooting everything until you win. Stealth is FUN.
But way way way too many missions are stealth based in LW2. All the lib missions before HQ (yes network tower counts since stealth shinobi is the easiest pick to win the mission safely), all the counter dark events/retaliations (destroy relay = ez with shinobi + 2 sharps), jailbreaks, the good general ops (rescue vips, hack worstations)...all those are best done with a stealth shinobi and maybe 1 or 2 supporters like specialist. This isn't the game I wanted to play. I wanted to play xcom, a tactical battle with mainly 5-6 men complimenting each other.

Vanilla had the idea totally right - stealth just a little flavor to let you pick the first engagement, not the bread and butter of the game.

Infiltration shot itself in the foot - an interesting "resource" as joinrbs would put it, but we just bypassed it with shinobi or 0% infiltration. It's really not doing its job of making us manage several 5-6 man squads, because there are not enough missions that reward 5-6 man (if they're even possible in the first place due to infiltration time).

I'm very afraid that the new smash and grab mission will only be a tiny bandaid on this; I forgot it was either xwynns or joinrbs who already commented it's kind of an ignorable mission if you're doing ok because the rewards aren't too hot.

As the council spokesman would say: "nothing short of a vast improvement will do..."
Sines
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Sines »

Alketi wrote:tl;dr: Address the real problem, don't treat the symptoms.
I'd agree with this mostly. Oscar Mike + Command is a powerful way to do certain stealth missions, but it's not the sole reason why stealth is good. Remember, at the start of his playthrough Xavier said he wasn't a huge fan of Oscar Mike, and that was with all those hours of playtime. He still was just fine stealthing, and said that losing Shinobis early game was a big problem, because of how good stealth missions are. Remove the ability for Shinobis to become officers at all, and people will still do stealth missions. Still, that subject is being discussed elsewhere, let's stick to Oscar Mike.

My problem with Oscar Mike is not that it's too good in rescue missions. It's that it's ONLY good in Rescue missions. Usable only once per mission, and it takes an action? So, the rest of the squad moves faster, while the officer lags behind. In an untimed mission, you rarely need a burst of movement, whereas in a timed mission, leaving behind the officer to go running 6 tiles ahead is a good way to trigger pods and get in trouble. I'm not saying it doesn't have legitimate uses that come up often enough... but contrasted with Focus Fire, it's very niche.

So if we nerf it for extractions (say, by making it not work on civilians), then we either need to buff it for other uses, or remove it entirely. Since this isn't about dreaming up replacements, how do we buff Oscar Mike so that you might want to take it?

First off, remove either the single use per mission or the action cost. Three squares of movement is rarely going to make a big difference. In most cases where you really need the extra movement, it's to go out on a flank, that might activate extra pods. Focus Fire, however, can help ensure a tough enemy goes down, by providing troops ever more accuracy and taking off a point of armor. Focus Fire is more generally useful AND it's on a cooldown. I see no reason why Oscar Mike needs to be once per mission. Give it a three turn cooldown, to allow for some stronger re-positioning about once a pod.

If instead we remove the AP cost, and let it leave the Officer with both his movements, then it might be a good choice actual combat squads on timed missions, allowing them all to move up quickly without leaving anyone behind, or having to send the officer out ahead. The whole squad can move further AS a squad, rather than seperating them all. Sure, you can just have everyone single move, but you're wasting a lot of the ability if you only single move. Letting the whole squad double move, or move and overwatch, without breaking them up... that's a bit more worth being a once per mission ability.

Personally, I favor the first option. The once-per-mission version is only going to be used on timed missions, and probably only come up often on pre-assigned evac missions. On missions where you set the evac at your leisure, you usually don't need to keep up a constant pace like you would where the evac point is pre-set, and not reaching it in time means being captured. It's not a bad niche use, but I'd like to make a movement ability be non-nichey.
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Devon_v
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Devon_v »

You need to train up something other than Shinobi or you'll get wrecked on the missions that aren't stealth. Most of which aren't optional. You need to send out combat squads when you can. Anything with a decent timer on it, ambushes, I send out a squad to soak up XP. Towers and HQs I won't go anywhere near without a full squad ready to fight it out. Even extractions are dicey late game, I'm finding some bodyguards are needed to account for unusual map layouts.

As I say that I realize that my use of map packs may have something to do with my experiences. I'm playing on far more interesting, complex, and larger maps than shipped with vanilla.


From the standpoint of a game however, vanilla is already a game that has you ignore stealth and blow up aliens with 6 guys. There's no reason for LW2 to be another version of that. LW2 is a game about actually being a guerrilla resistance movement, which includes never fighting fair and never getting into a straight fight if you can help it. When you are outnumbered over 100 to one, you just don't slug it out. Retaliations and Invasions are BRUTAL. Just as they should be.
justdont
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by justdont »

Devon_v wrote:You need to train up something other than Shinobi or you'll get wrecked on the missions that aren't stealth.
But it's totally acceptable because you don't need too many Shinobis - infiltrating with ultra-small teams (esp. just 1 shinobi) will give you very favorable infiltration times even if you want to go all the way to 200%. It is very unlikely that you'll ever need more than 3 specialized infiltration crews.

As for killing crews, you train some people up to about SGT level through early game, and then you just do 0% supply raids for all your training needs. It's a perfect mission to babysit 2-4 soldiers and let them get XP.
Devon_v wrote:LW2 is a game about actually being a guerrilla resistance movement, which includes never fighting fair and never getting into a straight fight if you can help it.
I object all in-setting implications of "not fighting fair" simply because gameplay-wise it's tactical combat simulator, not a stealth game. Stealth mechanics that are implemented are very rudimentary and simplistic. Unless LW2 wants to heavily expand on game mechanics themselves, going too heavy on stealth means making the game more shallow and primitive. Gameplay > lore.
trihero
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by trihero »

From the standpoint of a game however, vanilla is already a game that has you ignore stealth and blow up aliens with 6 guys. There's no reason for LW2 to be another version of that. LW2 is a game about actually being a guerrilla resistance movement, which includes never fighting fair and never getting into a straight fight if you can help it. When you are outnumbered over 100 to one, you just don't slug it out. Retaliations and Invasions are BRUTAL. Just as they should be.
There's such a thing as swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. Xcom is at its best when you are regularly using 5-6 men and long war's extra classes and skills and items make that much more interesting. I find that kind of gameplay extremely compelling. There's a place for stealth, but it's completely out of hand where I'm just seriously bored by doing so many missions with either 1 shinobi, or 1 shinobi + 1 specialist + 1 filler guy for exp, or 1 shinobi + 2 sharpshooters. I seriously am groaning and going "wtf not this bullshit again, this doesn't feel like a victory when I win and it's not even worth the loading screens just to play some 5 minute mission."

What's the point of having so many classes if you aren't using them?

Sure you can nerf 0% supply raids, you can make stealth missions harder, but at the end of the day the infiltration mechanic doesn't do what it's meant to do, and I'm honestly bored and sick of 3 or less man missions, and also sick of 0% supply raids.

The funny thing that devs/xwynns/joinrbs don't get it is that if you simply nerf all those, we don't have anything left to play because middle man missions are just ridiculously hard due to infiltration times/reinforcements, and you wind up getting the same rewards for more effort and risk.

The mod is great and has very quality work, but the gameplay is pretty dissatisfying once you get over the newness of the mechanics. It's not xcom, it's a bizarre mix of like Limbo where if you blow stealth wrong you're dead on one extreme and an overbloated super overwatch marathon/let's wait for all the cooldowns version of xcom with 10-12 men on the other end of the spectrum.

I want to feel like my 5-6 man squads are progressing, getting experience, and making headway strategically on missions, rather than shinobi/specialist generating resource, then we occasionally come together for a big battle, then rinse and repeat until one team is strong enough to beat waterworld.
nightwyrm
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by nightwyrm »

Regarding Oscar Mike's usage outside of rescue, I have on occasions used it to get a concealed but slowpoke squad of 5-6 (I'm still trying to use them, dammit) to run pass a disabled drone/turret or a patrolling pod. I very rarely use it on rescue/kidnap missions, I find just using Command to usually be enough to get the VIP/kidnapper to the evac zone.
stefan3iii
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by stefan3iii »

trihero wrote:I really don't think we need to nerf these mechanics so much as focus on making 5-6 man missions actually rewarding/favorable to do.

Stealth missions aren't guaranteed successes depending on map layout and a bit of luck, plus there are events that make stealth missions super hard to do (vigilance, chrysallids). They get quite difficult to do as advent strength simply goes up, as well.

The idea is to stop focusing on nerfing stealth missions/0% supply raids, and instead spend quality time making sure 5-6 man are by far the most favorable, rewarding, plentiful, and doable.
This. Oscar mike + command would be a nice combo, and wouldn't be wackily unbalanced in normal 5-6 man missions, because you can only command the VIP, rest of your squad still has to get out. It only becomes ridiculous when soloing the mission, and you can have the VIP run half way across the map activating every pod, and then the solo shinobi just stealths out in the following turn or two.
marceror
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by marceror »

trihero wrote: What's the point of having so many classes if you aren't using them?
Crazy thought, but maybe use the other classes!? Seriously, it sounds like you self inflicting a less enjoyable game on yourself. Play the way you enjoy.

I'm playing the same game as you, but I rely very heavily on combat squads. I'm probably running 8 - 9 combat missions for every stealth mission. And in the later game the stealth missions are becoming less and less common in my game.

I'm finding a nice balance, personally.
trihero
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by trihero »

Crazy thought, but maybe use the other classes!? Seriously, it sounds like you self inflicting a less enjoyable game on yourself. Play the way you enjoy.
I do use the other classes.

I'm trying to play the way I enjoy but there's just no reason to send a 5-6 man squad when a shinobi does it faster with less risk.

I'm in the late game and I would say maybe half the missions I do are counter dark event/prevent retal (so either hack or destroy relay) / sabotage alien facilities which are just so easy to do with shinobi + spec or shinobi + sharp why would I even bother otherwise. I'm finding stealth is more important than ever to stop dark events and retals.

I'm kind of at a stupid point in the game where I don't even care to send men on combat missions anymore, I just counter dark events and wait for my A team to train AWC skills for the final story missions. My A team is already fully ranked and I essentially have the gear I want so why risk squad wipes? I don't care to do UFOs or supply raids even at this point, because it gives me resources I don't care about and I don't care about advent strength rising, I'm just passing time for better AWC skills.
Jacke
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Jacke »

Alketi wrote:All game designers with any sense of self-awareness, should be libertarians IRL....
It ain't just a libertarian thing. It's an academic principle of statics of vital importance all over: a sample of a population isn't the same thing as the population. It's not even similar to the population if the sample isn't selected to be large enough and random enough.

In other words, two very good playtesters aren't equivalent to the people who play the game, especially because of all the internal knowledge and experience with the game.
Alketi wrote:Address the real problem, don't treat the symptoms.
Exactly.

And real insurgencies use stealth on a strategic and operational level to prevent their forces from being attacked and suffering useless attrition. They use intel to set up ambushes where they can be strong and the enemy weak and vulnerable to get the maximum benefit with the least risk. But they sure do fight tactically where it's right to do so.

That's not the same thing as what's happening in LW2, where stealth is also vital tactically and not just for setting up an ambush. Because of other pods on the map and the shear risk of activating them and getting some of the small numbers of XCOM troops wounded or killed, using 1-3 soldier stealth squads in ways to avoid risk and get the objective done is the players responding to a very tough game.

As others have said, that's really getting away from what XCOM has been. Add in stealth and make it useful, yes. But you take away small squad fighting--and that means on Legendary as well--you're starting to make this game not XCOM.
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NoDebate
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by NoDebate »

Instead of nerfing Oscar Mike into insignificance, why not adjust the mechanics of the mission?

For example, assign one pod to protect the holding cells, even a weak ADVENT pod would suffice. Apply to extracts and jailbreaks. Another idea, have the exfil point spawn after the VIP / prisoners are secured OR have ADVENT converge on the extract and introduce a mechanic that terminates existing extract if ADVENT is present in the zone (most complex solution).

Oscar Mike, if still considered "OP" should be moved deeper into the tree, ideally at Captain or Major. Opposing Jammer or Collector would make an Oscar Mike Officer less useful outside stealth missions.
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Devon_v
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by Devon_v »

ADVENT actually is supposed to advance on the extraction zone, but I think they're programmed specifically not to on VIP extractions. Which is probably the only mission they really should.

Guards are another thing that the game is seemingly supposed to have, but they rarely seem to spawn. I had to abandon one mission because a MEC, drone, and snake were camping the objective and simply would not leave. Another was a prisoner van and three pods just spent all day orbiting it. If at least some token presence was encountered at the objective I agree it would change these missions a lot for the better.
trihero
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Re: Ideas for balancing Oscar Mike > Command in rescue missions

Post by trihero »

NoDebate wrote:Instead of nerfing Oscar Mike into insignificance, why not adjust the mechanics of the mission?

For example, assign one pod to protect the holding cells, even a weak ADVENT pod would suffice. Apply to extracts and jailbreaks. Another idea, have the exfil point spawn after the VIP / prisoners are secured OR have ADVENT converge on the extract and introduce a mechanic that terminates existing extract if ADVENT is present in the zone (most complex solution).

Oscar Mike, if still considered "OP" should be moved deeper into the tree, ideally at Captain or Major. Opposing Jammer or Collector would make an Oscar Mike Officer less useful outside stealth missions.
According to xwynns video, oscar mike actually used to be higher up on the tree and was opposing something else, and no one ever picked oscar mike back then. The grass is always greener, yes? :D
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