Must-have Soldier Perks

Jacke
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Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

These are the perks you must have on a soldier class. You may run 3 or even more builds of that class, but every one of those builds has this perk in it.

Right now, I'm still learning a lot about LW2 and its soldier classes, but I already have some must-have perks, partly due to their own benefit and partly due to the relative lesser or lack of benefit in the other options.

Assault GSgt: Close Combat Specialist
I'm still a long way from getting a GSgt, but CCS looks to be vital whether the Assault has overrun the enemy or they've overrun the Assault.

Grenadier GSgt: Volatile Mix
Making all grenade's beaten zone radius 1 tile larger looks to be a lot better than shooting farther with Bombardier or even concealing another with Ghost Grenade, tempting as that might be.

Gunner LCpl: Grazing Fire
Making Gunners shots do some damage more often is a winner, especially when grazing damage grows with later weapon tech and for Chain Shot later.

Ranger SSgt: Grazing Fire
Same thing for Rangers, especially for Overwatch builds that need to hit for Rapid Reaction to deliver extra shots.

Sharpshooter Sgt: Long Watch
I really want Phantom, but a concealed Sharpshooter can't attack. Hauled out that Sniper Rifle, might as well shoot it. And it's safest to be far away from ADVENT when shooting, even when Overwatching.

Shinobi Cpl: Shadowstep
A Shinobi, whether stealth, shooter, or blade will at some time break concealment and have to deal with enemy Overwatch. Not having to worry about it is great.

Shinobi TSgt: Conceal
As the concealment specialist, being able to reenter concealment is powerful, especially if the Shinobi took Shadowstrike.

Specialist Cpl: Revival Protocol
Dealing with soldier-paralyzing conditions is vital. I have 3 builds for Specialists but all 3 have Revival.

Technical LCpl: Fire in the Hole
Tempting as Roust is by providing another flamethrower shot, especially one with such long range, having the one or two rockets be more accurate edges it out, even for flamethrower builds.

SPARK Aspirant: Shredder
SPARKs will be going up against heavily armoured enemy. Removing that armour for themselves and the squad is vital.

Officer Capt: Jammer
Being able to delay enemy reinforcements at critical times is vital. Especially consider that the other option, Fall Back, often fails spectacularly as soldier go the wrong way and even activate more pods.
trihero
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by trihero »

Assault GSgt: Close Combat Specialist
I'm still a long way from getting a GSgt, but CCS looks to be vital whether the Assault has overrun the enemy or they've overrun the Assault.
Nope, I think untouchable is very usable. It was fantastic in vanilla and having used it in LW2, it still feels fantastic. It's like a mini mimic beacon.
Grenadier GSgt: Volatile Mix
Making all grenade's beaten zone radius 1 tile larger looks to be a lot better than shooting farther with Bombardier or even concealing another with Ghost Grenade, tempting as that might be.
Nope, I think ghost grenade offers you some very compelling/out of the box options like another concealment/shadow strike opener.
Gunner LCpl: Grazing Fire
Making Gunners shots do some damage more often is a winner, especially when grazing damage grows with later weapon tech and for Chain Shot later.
Nope, center mass is extremely popular. I don't personally agree with the popularity, but it combines with hail of bullets for good guaranteed damage, or holotargeting/scopes/tracers etc to make the shots hit. The more red fog you apply the better is the argument.
Ranger SSgt: Grazing Fire
Same thing for Rangers, especially for Overwatch builds that need to hit for Rapid Reaction to deliver extra shots.
Nope, it's only obvious for overwatch rangers. Executioner is really really nice for the non-overwatch builds, and yes non-overwatch builds are good. Fortify is actually really nice as well.
Shinobi TSgt: Conceal
As the concealment specialist, being able to reenter concealment is powerful, especially if the Shinobi took Shadowstrike.
Shinobis are a tricky topic and yes conceal is ridiculous for stealth shinobis and also shadowstrike shinobis, but I honestly am happy to pick hard target for a sword shinobi who I expect to be getting shot at more frequently than other soldiers.
Sharpshooter Sgt: Long Watch
I really want Phantom, but a concealed Sharpshooter can't attack. Hauled out that Sniper Rifle, might as well shoot it. And it's safest to be far away from ADVENT when shooting, even when Overwatching.
While personally long watch is my pick because I STRONGLY prefer to use sharpshooters from squad sight in nontimed missions, I think the most popular pick by far is deadshot. Also remember that crit helps to "pierce" dodge which gets annoying on later enemies.
Shinobi Cpl: Shadowstep
A Shinobi, whether stealth, shooter, or blade will at some time break concealment and have to deal with enemy Overwatch. Not having to worry about it is great.
I also love shadowstep, but lone wolf is a totally viable pick. It helps with pulling overwatches (provided you meet its condition) and gives you that extra bit of accuracy and defense which is nice for either smg or sword shinobis. There are lots of cheap ways to deal with overwatch, so if your team has those options, shadowstep doesn't feel very good in those situations. Infighter sure whatever if I wanted to stack a tank shinobi.

Specialist Cpl: Revival Protocol
Dealing with soldier-paralyzing conditions is vital. I have 3 builds for Specialists but all 3 have Revival.
I actually disagree with this quite strongly. I know it's the "consensus" pick for people like xwynns/joinrbs, but for me I rarely if ever use this. I know and have seen footage of where it saves the day, but I myself run into the situation infrequently at best. If a sectoid is messing with me, I just flashbang it. If I get stunned/messed up by a drone, I usually can just wear it off unless I made a horrible mistake with the rest of my team. If I stabilize someone with a medikit I can usually get by without them to finish the mission and/or don't want to just revive them to get them killed again. It's also pretty stupid when the specialist himself is the one who is stunned/disoriented to begin with, then it doesn't do you any good. When I build specialists nowadays I really like them to contribute offensively as killing things is better than waiting for them to screw with you, and covering fire works well as part of the flanking/ever vigiliant/sentinel overwatch build. Interference well I just prefer to get rid of overwatch in other ways but I estimate it being more used than revival protocol.
Technical LCpl: Fire in the Hole
Tempting as Roust is by providing another flamethrower shot, especially one with such long range, having the one or two rockets be more accurate edges it out, even for flamethrower builds.
As long as you fire the rocket with your first action and don't have a terribad aim technical, it's actually fairly dependable and doesn't require fire in the hole. Suppression is a very compelling option that gives your technical something better to do than just plink with an SMG.
SPARK Aspirant: Shredder
SPARKs will be going up against heavily armoured enemy. Removing that armour for themselves and the squad is vital.
Not really. The shredder gun does fairly decent work of shredding, as well as grenadiers on your team. It's also not that hard to find shredder as an AWC perk on someone else, so it's not obligatory to learn. If you want to use the spark as a tank, the combat awareness thing is fine. I might consider iron skin if I used the spark as a "minesweeper" (aka chrysallid sweeper). I actually in vanilla specifically brought in the SPARK when I saw chrysallids on the mission due to the shadow chamber, because in vanilla overwatch was fairly unreliable to kill a lid before it hit someone and that was super annoying, but the SPARK is immune to lid poison which is great. I still think it's a viable way to go in LW2 for lid sweeping because eventually lids get lightning reflexes which really eff up overwatch, and getting lid poisoned is super super annoying.
Officer Capt: Jammer
Being able to delay enemy reinforcements at critical times is vital. Especially consider that the other option, Fall Back, often fails spectacularly as soldier go the wrong way and even activate more pods.
Eh, if you play mostly 0% supply raids and stealth missions, jammer is totally irrelevant. I don't even remember the last time I used it. Oh yeah it was on a destroy the relay mission, back when I didn't know you should just use a sharpshooter + shinobi to cheese those. At least Fall Back is a free action that can save my squad member if I'm willing to take the risk.

I know I'm sounding contrary, but I honestly don't think any of the things you mentioned are autopicks whatsoever, even on the ones that I tend to pick the same way you do.

I wouldn't call the following out right autopicks, but if you wanted my opinion on skills I can't imagine passing up:

Assault: close and personal, extra conditioning. The assault revolves around getting close to the enemy; more R+G is never ever a bad thing and helps with any kind of assault you use whether it's stun gun or not. Close and personal makes the shotgun actually like good to use. If you don't crit very often with the shotgun it doesn't feel like it's worth getting up close to begin with.

Grenadier: I'll do this the wrong way - there is one skill I would NEVER pick and it's Salvo in the last line. Both combat engi/full kit are just miles away better for any type of support or frag grenadier. Just have your officer command the grenadier if you intend to use 2 grenades in a turn.

Gunner: I'm reluctant to say it, but I'm thinking hail of bullets is pretty close to autopick. Guaranteed damage of that magnitude is just really really hard to pass up, and you can make do with other sources of shredding like AWC perks, grenadiers, rupture kind of is like shredding, etc.

Gunner/ranger: rupture in the last line just It seems to make so much more sense than combat fitness. It hits really darn hard and it helps whittle down ggpods/ggkeepers. Kill zone is kind of wanky/clunky/doesn't work like you think it would/have to be very good at predicting enemy pod movements.

Technical: again doing it backwards, I would never pick salvo. Just have your officer use command if it's that important. In b4 someone says something like "oh well you can do 3 grenades/rockets in a turn combining salvo with officer command!" yes you can, no I have not been in a situation where I messed it up so badly I need to chuck 3 grenades from one guy. If you bring 2 naders/rockers and an officer you can usually avoid crazy situations that require 3 grenades/rockets in a turn.
Icreatedthisforyou
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Icreatedthisforyou »

Assault GSgt: Close Combat Specialist
Have to disagree pretty strongly here. Bring em on and untouchable are very strong perks. Don't need ccs when the targets are dead. Untouchable is just straight up strong. Ccs just isn't as good in LW2 compared to LW1. Cryssies are way less common, you don't have exalt cheese, and beserkers are not run in circles. A lot of soldiers you will struggle to kill have things like tact sense which means that ccs shot isn't any where near a sure thing. You simply don't put assaults in a position to use ccs a lot. It can be good in a lot of situations but far from a sure thing.

I don't think assault has any must picks but they have a lot of never picks.

LR, you get a safer OW clear with electroshock, and more versatility.

Stun gunner, you took electroshock at tier one if you are usingthe arc thrower on this assault that stun is way less significant. The RnG damage or fortify are both very relevant.

Hit and run: it is close encounters with is legs cut off. Close encounters will let you do the same thing 95% of the time AND then do something else better 100% of the time.

Lethal: you can kill everyone...or stun everyone...or do a minimal amount more damage to a single target. I am pretty sure you will get more value out of a single street sweeper or chain lighting than you will from lethal over an entire campaign.
Grenadier GSgt: Volatile Mix
I can agree, ghost grenade opens up a lot of really good possibilities (ambush pods twice a mission), but volatile mix is always useful.
Gunner LCpl: Grazing Fire
Center mass is 100% must take for me. A graze means very little most the time, most of all it means the guy isn't dead. 1 damage doesn't seem like a lot but it is enough to consistently keep gunners ahead of the health curve meaning they can 1 shot must things. Later that 1 damage is actually a lot more as you take multiple shots per turn.

Hail of bullets, demolition, and saturation fire are all 100% picks for me too, even with nerfs they simply have too much versatility and power in each of them.
Ranger SSgt: Grazing Fire
OW build eh kinda, depends on the soldier, otherwise fortify. Non-OW builds definitely not, they have high enough aim and walk fire grazes usually are not an issue. Both executioner and fortify are strong perks. So definitely one of those two for non-Ow builds.

I don't see any must have perks in ranger or must avoid perks either. Ranger is a well built class, the biggest issues was other classes were a little over loaded but I think that is more or less fixed.


Sharpshooter Sgt: Long Watch
Phantom has its place but even then it is meh. Deadshot is pretty huge though. I can't see passing, most the time if you are not moving you will be using stock. Not worth a low % reaction shot, followed by a shot that just gave up so much aim. That now the full cover shot is no longer 100%, 10%crit goes a long way in making hard to kill advent dead.

Don't really have a must take or must avoid perk for sharpshooter, there are a fair number that feel kinda meh across the board though.
Shinobi Cpl: Shadowstep
Strongly disagree on this one. Lone wolf 110% of the time. So many ways to deal with OW not worth taking another, in particular when there is something as string as lone wild available. It is easy to have active, it is often the difference between a 90% strike and a 100% strike, which is like asking if you want your shinobi to be wounded or killed 10%of the time. It is defense now which makes it even stronger. You are in conceal for so much of the time with the Shinobi that avoiding OW isn't really a big deal unless you go out of your way to do that, but rarely is that the best decision. For swordsmen you will get way more use or of that 10 defense than shadowstrp, they get shot at a fair amount, and 10 aim means you don't miss.

No real must takes for shinobi, pretty much anything involving shooting is never take though, just not enough cohesion to make it worthwhile pretty much any class could have done it bets with a gun.
Specialist Cpl: Revival Protocol
Yep.
Technical LCpl: Fire in the Hole
Probably my least taken perk here. If you NEED that rocket ti be that accurate consistently there us a problem. I usually go suppression. Fire in the Hole helps on one turn where I usually want to muck up all the cover in a general area. Roust is pretty situational. Suppression gives my technicals something they can do on most turns. Gunners have stronger CD based abilities rather than charge limited, and rangers are usual better off shooting. So it is a good way to increase technical versatility.

Technicals have solid perks, concussion rocket is pretty bad so is rapid fire compared to alternatives.

Don't use sparks really so no comment.

Officers: eh they are all pretty even in power as far as finding use for them.
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3tamatulg
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by 3tamatulg »

Jacke wrote:Officer Capt: Jammer
Being able to delay enemy reinforcements at critical times is vital. Especially consider that the other option, Fall Back, often fails spectacularly as soldier go the wrong way and even activate more pods.
Many of the things you said are disputable, but this is the one I have the strongest disagreement with. Fall Back is a 0 action free move which is useful on every mission type. It can put someone out of sight of the aliens if their cover just got destroyed, it can put them in range of other soldier abilities, it can get them closer to a Command into the Evac zone in a situation where you're running away. You just have to keep in mind what enemies are visible and what the AI will decide good cover means in that situation. Clearing the right enemies first lets you manipulate the move to your advantage.

Jammer on the other hand is 100% useless on missions without reinforcements, useless on missions where you Evac well before they arrive, and worse than useless on the Retaliation missions where the reinforcements are every turn (makes two sets stack up on one turn instead).
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

3tamatulg wrote:
Jacke wrote:Officer Capt: Jammer
Being able to delay enemy reinforcements at critical times is vital. Especially consider that the other option, Fall Back, often fails spectacularly as soldier go the wrong way and even activate more pods.
Many of the things you said are disputable, but this is the one I have the strongest disagreement with. Fall Back is a 0 action free move which is useful on every mission type....

Jammer on the other hand is 100% useless on missions without reinforcements, useless on missions where you Evac well before they arrive, and worse than useless on the Retaliation missions where the reinforcements are every turn (makes two sets stack up on one turn instead).
EDIT: Not having access to Fall Back, from its description ("any visible ally") I can't tell if it has multiple soldiers take a "defensive action" or just one. And I'm assuming that "defensive action" is a move back into cover. I'm assuming it's just one soldier that will move via AI control. Even if it's different, I can't see how that would improve on its performance.

You're looking at both perks within a single mission. Even there, I'd say Fall Back is a situational skill that depends on the AI maneuvering your trooper well. Perhaps if you use it enough, you get a feel for the AI and how to manipulate it. I'm no where near having it to test out, but when I hear about skilled players like xwynns having spectacularly bad experiences with it, I'd say it's lacking. And even if it isn't, it's only available every 4 turns for one subordinate soldier. If you have to disengage from the enemy, it's going to mostly be with regular actions. Even when Fall Back makes a positive difference, it makes it for at most one soldier every 4 turns.

But Jammer can save your whole squad when things go bad. Delaying enemy reinforcements by a turn could allow the squad to set up to overwatch and with that and the following turn wipe them out. Or if it's gotten to 8-ADVENT pods and the squad is hurting bad, could allow an squad evac instead of a squad wipe.

And it's not just about one mission. Your officers and squads go through dozens of missions. Fall Back can make one soldier retreat every 4 turns. But that officer and squad will do dozens of missions that face reinforcements. Jammer could save that squad from destruction many times in their campaign.
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

trihero and Icreatedthisforyou, sorry for not replying to you sooner, but those are good criticisms of my picks. Although I still think some of mine might be better, but maybe not complete must-have. :)
trihero wrote:I'll do this the wrong way - there is one skill I would NEVER pick....
This is actually stronger in most cases than perks being must-have. I'd say more often there is 1 skill out of the 3 at particular ranks for some of the classes never to pick primarily because the other 2 are more likely to be useful or contribute to a better build. Your example of Salvo is a good one, out of luck for both Grenadiers and Technicals, just because it goes up against Grenadier's Combat Engineer and Full Kit and Technical's Tactical Sense and Quickburn. And an Officer's Command can provide this to any trooper without them having to have it in their own build.

But the Ranger and Gunner Rupture is a must-have, primarily because by MSgt if you don't have enough stats, there's a problem well before Combat Fitness is available and Kill Zone is rather situational. While having big bags of HP to burst and drain will always be present.
Last edited by Jacke on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
justdont
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by justdont »

Not a single one in this list is a "must have". Most don't even come close. Two closest to "must-have" are Jammer and Revival Protocol, but both aren't necessarily an autopick depending on your soldiers' lineup. If you can afford a separate officer for non-RF missions, Jammer is pointless to take. If your team lineup includes more than one Specialist, you can easily have Specialists with no Revival without any problems.

Other mentioned perks are very far away from autopicks. E.g. CCS, while extremely strong on a normal shotgun-styled Assault, is quite weak on a rifle-wielding Assault. Grazing Fire over other offensive buffs entirely depends on your approach to aim buffs and damage-dealing. If you're running a team that goes by on making a lot of coinflip attacks (near 50%), then surely, Grazing Fire is fantastic. If you're planning to utilize ammo effects a lot - then again, poison on a graze is still poison. But on the other hand, if you go by buffing your aim and debuffing enemy defense then making sure-fire killshots (not 100% shots, but at least in 80+ area) - then Grazing Fire is not that great.

Currently, there's only a few rare perks that are so severely underpowered that nobody (nobody informed) will take them. And there's only a minor amount of "must-haves", and even then they are particular to a specific build, not to the class entirely (for example, Sting Grenades is practically an autopick for dedicated support grenadier, but not for other grenadier builds).

PS: Not sure why Long Watch is even on this list. It's practically the weakest perk of the entire tree, and it gets very easily outperformed by scope + stock upgrades on a sniper rifle even just for to-hit values, not to mention that you have little control over your OW shot, unlike normal shot.
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

justdont wrote:Not a single one in this list is a "must have".
I used overstatement to get a discussion going. :) Of course, most perks are to some degree situational and builds and tactics can be adapted. But I think some perks, not necessarily the ones in my OP, are damned close to must-have.
justdont wrote:PS: Not sure why Long Watch is even on this list. It's practically the weakest perk of the entire tree, and it gets very easily outperformed by scope + stock upgrades on a sniper rifle even just for to-hit values, not to mention that you have little control over your OW shot, unlike normal shot.
trihero made a very good argument about having Long Watch in another topic. What it does is open up the Squad Sight for Overwatch shots. Most of the time with targets visible, the Sharpshooter isn't going to go on Overwatch. But when a pod has been killed off, that then means the Sharpshooter can still be back out of visibility and covering the squad as they maneuver. It's not wasted actions, it's banking for the next activation of a pod. Because an Overwatch shot is often at a target out of cover, that usually makes up for the Aim penalty, even for a Sharpshooter at Squad Sight ranges.
nightwyrm
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by nightwyrm »

3tamatulg wrote:
Jacke wrote:Officer Capt: Jammer
Being able to delay enemy reinforcements at critical times is vital. Especially consider that the other option, Fall Back, often fails spectacularly as soldier go the wrong way and even activate more pods.
Many of the things you said are disputable, but this is the one I have the strongest disagreement with. Fall Back is a 0 action free move which is useful on every mission type. It can put someone out of sight of the aliens if their cover just got destroyed, it can put them in range of other soldier abilities, it can get them closer to a Command into the Evac zone in a situation where you're running away. You just have to keep in mind what enemies are visible and what the AI will decide good cover means in that situation. Clearing the right enemies first lets you manipulate the move to your advantage.

Jammer on the other hand is 100% useless on missions without reinforcements, useless on missions where you Evac well before they arrive, and worse than useless on the Retaliation missions where the reinforcements are every turn (makes two sets stack up on one turn instead).
There was a thread on Officer abilities and Fall Back is known to have put your soldiers right next to enemies or trigger new pods. The game already has enough RNG in it, I don't want more.
justdont
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by justdont »

Jacke wrote:trihero made a very good argument about having Long Watch in another topic. What it does is open up the Squad Sight for Overwatch shots. Most of the time with targets visible, the Sharpshooter isn't going to go on Overwatch. But when a pod has been killed off, that then means the Sharpshooter can still be back out of visibility and covering the squad as they maneuver. It's not wasted actions, it's banking for the next activation of a pod. Because an Overwatch shot is often at a target out of cover, that usually makes up for the Aim penalty, even for a Sharpshooter at Squad Sight ranges.
The tradeoff is that you're not taking Steady Weapon action instead. Steady Weapon in itself is +25 aim and crit, and combined with scope for another +15 (assuming elite attachments) - it is enough aim to negate heavy cover, with extra +25 crit and normal crit resolution (unlike OW shot which won't crit unless you got lucky with OW-boosting AWC perks). With advanced scope and stock - it's enough to negate half-cover.

So, with Long Watch you're taking one extra uncontrolled shot per pod activation, while without Long Watch you take more powerful shot that can be quite easily buffed into a guaranteed crit. I'd say that 1 powerful controlled shot is much more useful that 1 uncontrolled + 1 controlled that are weaker (it's also not 2 shots instead of one, because while killing already activated pod, Long Watch doesn't come into play).

Of course, it's a different story if you got OW-boosting perks in AWC. They can make Long Watch quite worthwhile.
Last edited by justdont on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

nightwyrm wrote:There was a thread on Officer abilities and Fall Back is known to have put your soldiers right next to enemies or trigger new pods. The game already has enough RNG in it, I don't want more.
Hey, if we're going to have our troops commanded by RNG, let's go for the ultimate: Dwarf Fortress XCOM. You think endgame ADVENT and Aliens are tough, just go digging for the Candy and see what happens when you let the Clowns out of the Circus. :D
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

justdont wrote:The tradeoff is that you're not taking Steady Weapon action instead....
As I've mentioned, the Overwatch shot is usually against a target out of cover and therefore flanked, which more than makes up for the loss for reaction shot Aim and cuts into what Steady Weapon and a Scope provides to deliberate attacks. And a Hair Trigger would improve reaction shots (although weapon mod slots could be tight). And that Overwatch shot can kill or at least apply Red Fog to a yellow-alerted ADVENT before they get a chance to shoot back.
justdont
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by justdont »

Jacke wrote:And a Hair Trigger would improve reaction shots (although weapon mod slots could be tight).
Don't forget that OW shots suffer 0.7 to-hit modifier unless you're just breaking concealment. Hair Trigger bonus only partially counteracts this, so OW + Hair Trigger is still less aim (on soldiers with good base aim, such as snipers) than normal shot even without scope.
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

justdont wrote:
Jacke wrote:And a Hair Trigger would improve reaction shots (although weapon mod slots could be tight).
Don't forget that OW shots suffer 0.7 to-hit modifier unless you're just breaking concealment. Hair Trigger bonus only partially counteracts this, so OW + Hair Trigger is still less aim (on soldiers with good base aim, such as snipers) than normal shot even without scope.
That reaction shot lost 30% of Aim would be made back (and more?) by the high likelihood of shooting at a target out of cover and flanked to boot versus the usual Sharpshooter target in high cover.

I think the big competition to picking Long Watch comes from Phantom, which is very situational even for Holotarget-specced Sharpshooters. Deadshot's 10% boost to crit chance just doesn't seem enough to compete. If it was +20% it would be a tougher choice, but I'd still think I'd take Long Watch on both DFA and Holotargetter Sharpshooters, because it gives them something they're otherwise be without. But at +30%.... :)
Icreatedthisforyou
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Icreatedthisforyou »

Jacke wrote:That reaction shot lost 30% of Aim would be made back (and more?) by the high likelihood of shooting at a target out of cover and flanked to boot versus the usual Sharpshooter target in high cover.

I think the big competition to picking Long Watch comes from Phantom, which is very situational even for Holotarget-specced Sharpshooters. Deadshot's 10% boost to crit chance just doesn't seem enough to compete. If it was +20% it would be a tougher choice, but I'd still think I'd take Long Watch on both DFA and Holotargetter Sharpshooters, because it gives them something they're otherwise be without. But at +30%.... :)

Two things, crit counter acts dodge. That means by take OW on activations you can no longer reliably straight up kill things like snakes or stun lancers. Second hair triggers take up precious weapon slots and your sharp shooters pretty much demand slots as is due to serial.

So taking Ow shots you have a 30% chance to miss and do nothing. And now the soldier you want to kill the snake in full cover has lost 25% of its aim and 35% crit (taking long watch and no steady weapon) which effectively counters the Dodge it has. You rarely NEED that OW damage from the sharp shooter but you frequently need someone to kill that damn snake. And you just removed the most reliable way to do that.

Sharp shooters already demand a lot of weapon mods. Scopes for obvious reasons, stock to allow then to reliably hit through full cover and reliably solidly hit high dodge targets rather than graze, auto loaders because unlike anyone else in the game they can't shoot after reloading AND they allow you to get more kills off during serial. If you get a fourth shot you pretty much instantly slap in an extended mag because serial and it means less turns where they reload.

Taking a hair trigger effectively removes 25 hit and crit from a lot of shots for sharp shooters in particular if you took death from above, which means you get to steady weapon most every turn on most maps. That seems like a terrible deal. And if you remove the scope you just crippled their regular shots. The auto loader means that in any prolonged engagement your sharpshooter can't shoot 1/4 of the time, and has really pitiful serial chains. Or the extended mag if you get it, see the auto loader.

All to get an OW shot you probably didn't even need that is probaby closer to a coin flip due to range and in turn turns your next shot from a sure thing into a coin flip to kill a prioity target no one else can reliably.

There are lots of soldiers to OW with there are few soldiers that can reliably kill high dodge targets in full cover
trihero
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by trihero »

The tradeoff is that you're not taking Steady Weapon action instead. Steady Weapon in itself is +25 aim and crit, and combined with scope for another +15 (assuming elite attachments) - it is enough aim to negate heavy cover, with extra +25 crit and normal crit resolution (unlike OW shot which won't crit unless you got lucky with OW-boosting AWC perks). With advanced scope and stock - it's enough to negate half-cover.

So, with Long Watch you're taking one extra uncontrolled shot per pod activation, while without Long Watch you take more powerful shot that can be quite easily buffed into a guaranteed crit. I'd say that 1 powerful controlled shot is much more useful that 1 uncontrolled + 1 controlled that are weaker (it's also not 2 shots instead of one, because while killing already activated pod, Long Watch doesn't come into play).
I've already argued about this in a different thread, but the most glaring thing about your argument is somehow you manage to count the scope bonus as if you can't attach it if you take long watch. Counting the scope here is a meaningless comparison since you either take a steady weapon + scope shot, or you take a long watch + regular shot, which includes the scope. So why even mention the scope, except as a deliberate red herring?

It's not clear that 1 powerful controlled shot is much more useful than 1 uncontrolled + 1 controlled. Not at all. If we went simply on this argument, then you would never take rapid fire or rapid reaction because it screws up your aim. You gotta do some math, you gotta do some hard thinking, you gotta try it in practice most importantly, and the math doesn't always support one side or the other definitively in all circumstances (even if we ignore AWC perks for a second).

When I set up a sharpshooter properly, the long watch shots around between 60-70%. This is when I don't have an officer buffing, so it could very very easily go up 10% without effort. 60-70% outweighs steady weapon's 25% on average. Boom, math. I'm not going to say it's always superior, maybe once in a while there's somehow a target you wish you had steady weapon on, but you have to be fair and say well, if that overwatch shot killed someone, you really did yourself an awesome favor and you still can kill another person with your regular shot. And you probably have means to control enemies anyways if you're playing properly so you might as well push damage with the sharpshooter.

Being uncontrolled yes it's factually true, but if it hits something, that's fine, that's great. You have to kill everything anyways at some point, at least in the missions where I take a sharpshooter. Yes you "lose" the steady weapon opportunity for lulls in the battle, but you gain more DPS overall, and often times the sharpshooter is still looking at the second shot as a 100% hit without steady weapon when you factor in things like damn good ground, elite scope, blowing up cover, whatever else.

My too long didn't read reasoning is I'm fine with taking a 60% "uncontrolled" shot (this is really a worst case scenario and I can push it to 80% without issues) and a 100% shot versus one 125% shot. Killing 2 enemies in a turn on average has merit compared to overkilling one enemy, and even if it's not overkilling that one enemy, you probably have other ways to control a "scary" enemy that don't rely on aim anyways. There's nothing wrong with taking deadshot inherently, but there is both math and experience to support two shots versus one shot, even if one of those is "uncontrolled."

It's also not very difficult to reach 100% crit without deadshot. (40% flank, 25% steady weapon, aggression 30% whoops that's 95% without doing anything, you can figure out easy ways to push it to 100% like another sharpshooter with get some/hi def holo, talon round.

too long didn't read: it's not crazy to pick long watch over deadshot. If you're clever enough to realize it's 2 shots vs 1 shot, then you can do some math and more importantly try it out, to see which offers dps. Being "uncontrolled" is far too theoretical an objection since in virtually all cases, I'm totally happy with a dead enemy regardless of whether it's a drone or trooper or officer. Had to do it at some point, and it might as well have been using a "free" shot compared to setting up and overkilling one target. Again not saying steady weapon is always overkilling or whatever, but it easily can be. And what if your long watch hit a juicy target, that certainly happens a lot as there are rarely enemies that you want to just roam free.
So taking Ow shots you have a 30% chance to miss and do nothing. And now the soldier you want to kill the snake in full cover has lost 25% of its aim and 35% crit (taking long watch and no steady weapon) which effectively counters the Dodge it has. You rarely NEED that OW damage from the sharp shooter but you frequently need someone to kill that damn snake. And you just removed the most reliable way to do that.
There's really no point in looking at the downside without looking at the possible upside. Let's say you hit the overwatch, which happens more than often. This means there's one less enemy to worry, a huge plus. And you still have your normal shot. You're overplaying the snek needs to die - you probably, almost certainly if you're a good commander, have ways to control enemies, like area suppression, flashbang, etc, that do not rely on aim whatsoever. I'm pretty sure no one goes into battle solely relying on the sharpshooter to kill that one snake; you have redundancies built in to make sure lots of enemies aren't taking shots at you.

If you are relying on the sharpshooter to do your crowd control, OK congratulations, I agree long watch isn't the skill for you, yes you want steady weapon and deadshot to maximize your single target damage potential. But it doesn't make me crazy for picking long watch.

And it's still fairly reasonable to get a decent normal attack without steady shot. Not always, but reasonable. You can always look for the negative side and play on those fears, but I'm not going to be irrationally swayed by theoretical objections, and I'm honestly happy with long watch with the way I use sharpshooters as a backline squad sight unit. I certainly take deadshot for builds like holotargeters who don't have DFA (at which point long watch has a really rough time hitting).
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3tamatulg
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by 3tamatulg »

Jacke wrote:snip
And it's not just about one mission. Your officers and squads go through dozens of missions. Fall Back can make one soldier retreat every 4 turns. But that officer and squad will do dozens of missions that face reinforcements. Jammer could save that squad from destruction many times in their campaign.
My point is that there's so enough situations where it's not a must-pick that I don't think you can call it a must-pick.

I have fall back on like 3/5 of my officers of sufficient rank. They're officers who will ideally never actually see reinforcements called down on them and get sent on stealth missions.
aimlessgun
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by aimlessgun »

A lot of perks in the OPs list I personally do get on almost every solider of the class. But I don't think they are automatic picks. People build soldiers for different roles. So within a certain role some of them become autopicks, but not for every possible use of the class.

You might get more consensus on automatic "never picks" though there will be some defenders of any perk you choose...well except maybe Hit and Run :lol:

Oh and on Fall Back, I've heard a lot of horror stories about it...but maybe if the AI logic becomes well understood I could risk ever using it. Currently it has a chance to run into the fog of war which is like...no, I'm not using that until I know the logic and can predict if it will happen.
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Devon_v
Long War EU Crew
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Devon_v »

Heh, half of that list are the ones I never take. :)

Stack aim on a Sharpshooter, get on some damn good ground, steady your stock, take aim through your scope and enjoy 100% to hit. On everything. I never take Long Watch, and I never take Sharpahooters on run and gun engagements. Rangers with Center Mass, Walk Fire, and AP ammo and Gunners with Center Mass and Hail of Bullets delete a pod that gets in your way.
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

trihero wrote:I certainly take Deadshot for builds like holotargeters who don't have DFA (at which point Long Watch has a really rough time hitting).
Is that because the holotargeters won't have Damn Good Ground and won't have the +10 Aim for their Long Watch reaction shots?
Sorbicol
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Sorbicol »

Holo-targeting sharpshooter builds are, once developed, borderline god-like once you build a couple of improved holo-targeters. I've just taken one on a mission for the first time. Used multitarget to highlight most of a pod of 8, steady weapon, then open with an incendiary grenade from my grenadier while everyone else was in overwatch. The holo target ting completely erases the OW penalty, it was a turkey shoot. The sole remaining advent (who was burning) was a 100% shot for my sniper next turn. My squad of 5 eliminated a pod of 8 in 2 turns with no return fire. That's mightily impressive.
trihero
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by trihero »

Jacke wrote:
trihero wrote:I certainly take Deadshot for builds like holotargeters who don't have DFA (at which point Long Watch has a really rough time hitting).
Is that because the holotargeters won't have Damn Good Ground and won't have the +10 Aim for their Long Watch reaction shots?
It's actually mostly because without Death from Above, the squadsight penalty is HUUUUUUUUUGE at long distances.
Jacke
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Jacke »

trihero wrote:It's actually mostly because without Death from Above, the squadsight penalty is HUUUUUUUUUGE at long distances.
Wow, that's not mentioned in the perk description. It just says if you kill an enemy at lower elevation, it only costs one action point and doesn't end the Sharpshooter's turn. That would allow using a stock to steady the weapon for the next turn, is that what the difference is?
trihero
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by trihero »

Jacke wrote:
trihero wrote:It's actually mostly because without Death from Above, the squadsight penalty is HUUUUUUUUUGE at long distances.
Wow, that's not mentioned in the perk description. It just says if you kill an enemy at lower elevation, it only costs one action point and doesn't end the Sharpshooter's turn. That would allow using a stock to steady the weapon for the next turn, is that what the difference is?
I'm pretty sure in death from above's ? info tip it does tell you it eliminates the squad sight penalty from any elevation you fire at, this was introduced in 1.1. I think I know because it was specifically in the patch notes, otherwise I wouldn't have read the ? tip again.

Yes one of DFA's awesome properties is that it lets you kill someone + ready weapon (if you're on higher ground obviously), but that's always been the case, that's not new.
Tuhalu
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Re: Must-have Soldier Perks

Post by Tuhalu »

trihero wrote:
Technical LCpl: Fire in the Hole
Tempting as Roust is by providing another flamethrower shot, especially one with such long range, having the one or two rockets be more accurate edges it out, even for flamethrower builds.
As long as you fire the rocket with your first action and don't have a terribad aim technical, it's actually fairly dependable and doesn't require fire in the hole. Suppression is a very compelling option that gives your technical something better to do than just plink with an SMG.
If you have a pure (or close to pure) high aim rocket technical, a Rifle is far more compelling. The SMG is only really good if you want to maximise Flame Thrower use because you've maximised your flame thrower uses.

Fire in the Hole comboes well with Javelin Rockets, because long range shots have higher aim penalties than medium range shots.
trihero wrote:Technical: again doing it backwards, I would never pick salvo. Just have your officer use command if it's that important. In b4 someone says something like "oh well you can do 3 grenades/rockets in a turn combining salvo with officer command!" yes you can, no I have not been in a situation where I messed it up so badly I need to chuck 3 grenades from one guy. If you bring 2 naders/rockers and an officer you can usually avoid crazy situations that require 3 grenades/rockets in a turn.
With a pure Rocket technical, salvo comes into its own. On any given activation, you can take the shot from wherever you happen to be and then move into cover or take another shot (with your Rifle, because you aren't carrying a rubbish SMG on your high aim technical). You don't have to worry about whether or not you've moved before you take the shot and you don't have to worry about whether you are in safe cover or not before you take the shot. Salvo (especially combined with Javelin Rockets) on timed missions makes Rocketeer much more useful. It's also not even that bad compared to the other choices on untimed missions.
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