Weapon upgrades

[trihero]

As long as there are eligible targets in range, a white reload is just as good as a green one - and, given the gunner's tendency to empty their magazines in a jiffy, it's not unlikely that their first reload *will* occur while there are still good targets in range, or between firefights, where a free reload is even less useful. In my experience, the value of an autoloader for a gunner lies in being able to move on an empty magazine (instead of wasting the first action on reloading) before using a costly special attack, at least in the first encounter- but that value evaporates quickly, is very situational and therefore not easily quantifiable.

In my experience, moving is a really, really big deal. I've lost entire firefights because I had to stand there and reload instead of being able to move + shoot or move + suppress. Unless you're playing all 0% raids, timers do actually matter, you often have to move towards the objective while shooting every turn, and the difference between a white reload and a green reload is easily one of the deciding factors in battle. I often find myself going "crap, I didn't build an autoloader?! That would gone SO much smoother." I completely disagree with autoloaders being situational, at least on classes that can use 2+ ammo per turn.

One very practical example is when you go sharpshooting to kill relays from squad sight. One basic autoloader saves you from having to reload at all (assuming you can kill the relay in 6 shots, which is pretty reasonable), and that one turn often does make a difference between whether you get it done or whether the enemy happens to bump into you. You'd have to have an elite magazine to come up with the same effect.

Another practical example is the assault class. One basic autoloader should save you from having to reload in a practical battle (like a retal, or other small'ish mission that isn't swarming). I find that 4 shots isn't ever enough and when you are constantly trying to move up to get into a better position, it's a really bad thing if you find you have to reload instead of being able to get that flank shot.

Timers make autoloaders extremely relevant and to me one of the most powerful and desirable weapon mods. If I just had to recommend a quick and dirty 3 mod layout without knowing any details, it would look like scope - autoloader - expanded magazine. You can do better knowing more details, but I think you might be surprised how strong that setup is for anyone who actually fires with their primary weapon.

[8wayz]

@Undershaft

The discussion about two mediocre shots vs one good one is squad dependent. For me I have a sniper who can simply take care of one target on the first turn and leave another mid-range one for the Marksman with the stock on the second one.

And I will only Steady the weapon on the Marksman Grenadier when he is on higher elevation, as he has Damn Good Ground. Anywhere else he will either move or take a regular shot.

I would like to stress that you need a good number of perks to make the Stock work on non-Snipers. Hence why the above setup will not be advisable for each and every Grenadier or Technical soldier.

Concerning change the upgrades, new ones will mean limiting the use of the existing upgrades. As a lot of different abilities were repurposed as perks for the new classes, the upgrades have a limited scope in LW2.

[Undershaft]

Timers make autoloaders extremely relevant and to me one of the most powerful and desirable weapon mods. If I just had to recommend a quick and dirty 3 mod layout without knowing any details, it would look like scope - autoloader - expanded magazine. You can do better knowing more details, but I think you might be surprised how strong that setup is for anyone who actually fires with their primary weapon.

I agree, as you can see in my original post.

I completely disagree with autoloaders being situational, at least on classes that can use 2+ ammo per turn.

(Are we talking about modded, seperate autoloaders or the regular kind, btw? I use the latter)
That statement was limited to gunners, though. My point is that they can still move and fire a regular shot from their superior weapon as long as their magazines are not *completely* empty (an expanded magazine helps with that), or reload and fire their single machine gun shot, or reload and use a special shooting ability, so they have a lot of options and are still very much in the game even if they have to reload the old fashioned way. A ranger's firepower, however, largely stems from Light 'Em Up and suffers more from moving or reloading, in my experience, at least until they get Rapid Fire or Rapid Reaction.

It's also my impression that the advanced autoloader on a gunner basically boils down to two specific moments, which would be the apex of its usefulness: blue move and Hail of Bullets and blue move and Saturation Fire (or blue move and suppression, in an emergency when you are very low on bullets). Ideally, both of these combinations have to occur to make the most of an autoloader. In situations where you *don't* have to/want to move before either of those actions, on the other hand, the autoloader would be rather wasted, since you could have reloaded manually - hence my calling them situational. Also, the need for and/or opportunity to reload comes so quickly and frequently for a gunner that the auoloader might only carry them through the very first encounter, while a ranger using one can actually get through an entire mission without ever having to fall back on manual reloads. (I'm a sucker for durability and constancy, I have to admit.)

A further thought: To unleash their full regular (meaning: non-cooldown) firepower, a gunner needs only one shot in their magazine, while a ranger needs 2-4 (4 with rapid reaction). So, for a gunner, the autoloader is only essential in the case that he has to move *and* exactly zero bullets left, while a ranger can still directly profit from it even if he remains stationary and has three shots left in the magazine.

The question is: are there even better upgrades for a gunner? As you can see, I even chose high quality autoloaders as a fourth candidate for a slot. But the scope seems non negotiable and an extended magazine is a more constant advantage on a gunner than the autoloader, in my opinion, so these two would be fixed. That leaves the choice between hair trigger and autoloader. Since the gunner uses suppression, my choice would probably be hair trigger, but, like I said, I understand your affinity for autoloaders.

[Undershaft]

The discussion about two mediocre shots vs one good one is squad dependent. For me I have a sniper who can simply take care of one target on the first turn and leave another mid-range one for the Marksman with the stock on the second one.

And I will only Steady the weapon on the Marksman Grenadier when he is on higher elevation, as he has Damn Good Ground. Anywhere else he will either move or take a regular shot.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point at all. I also think you don't understand what I've been trying to explain to you.
Why would you wanting to use Steady Weapon depend on elevated position and Damn Good Ground???
The more aim bonus you already have, the less useful (or even: more harmful) the stock becomes. Haven't you read my calculation or am I being obtuse here?

[LordYanaek]

First i do with what i have. I know you can build weapon mods but you need 3 of them first to unlock the research. In my current run i got my 3rd basic scope in September so i was locked out of scop upgrades for a long time. Anyway in a ideal situation this is what i would do.

• Assault
  • Shotgun build : Laser sight - Suppressor - Exp Mag. Really just need the Laser Sight and Suppressor but more ammo doesn't hurt even with Clip size 4.
  • Rifle and Stungun build : Scope - Suppressor - Exp Mag. Here i want the aim bonus. More ammo isn't a priority until you get rapid fire as you will probably fire only every other turn.
• Grenadier
  • Basic setup : Suppressor on their SMG. Scope and Exp Mag when i have any excess.
  • High aim rapid fire grenadier : Scope - Exp Mag - Suppressor on their Rifle.
• Gunner
  • Direct Fire build : Scope - Exp Mag - Suppressor. This one will use all the bullet hungry abilities and needs more clip size. Don't really need hair trigger as he rarely overwatches.
  • Suppression build : Hair Trigger - Laser Sight - Exp Mag. Cool under pressure allows crit on reaction shots so i can get both +THC and + crit. I will build a gunner who rolls sentinel or rapid reaction at the AWC this way
• Ranger
  • Rain of bullets build : Scope - Exp Mag - Autoloader (with "Free reload anytime" mod only!). Keep firing non stop every turn and hit as often as you can.
  • Crit build (high base aim) : Laser Sight - Exp Mag - Stock. The idea isn't to rain bullets but to crit as reliably as possible to one shot most enemies. LeU allows to fire and aim for the next turn but you need good cover to avoid being shot and loosing aim. I like the idea but haven't really been able to use it very well.
  • Overwatch build : Hair Trigger - Laser Sight - Exp Mag. Cool under pressure allows crit on reaction shots so i can get both +THC and + crit.
• Sharpshooter
  • Nest sniper : Laser Sight - Exp Mag - Stock. DfA allows you to aim after each kill and you should always kill what you target. Those guys have very high aim and the Laser sight brings their crit close to that sweet 100% on every shot.
  • Holotargetter : Scope - Exp Mag - Suppressor. Basically more aim as yours isn't that great if you went this way.
  • Snapshooter : Laser Sight - Exp Mag - Autoloader (with "Free reload anytime" mod only!). For those flank and go Serial moments. Laser sight helps with your crits on flanked targets and since you are flanking you probably have good THC even without a scope.
• Shinobi
  • Sword or Scout build : Suppressor on their SMG and that's it.
  • Rifle and Pistol build : Scope - Exp Mag - Autoloader (with "Free reload anytime" mod only!). They work somewhat like a Snapshooter but with worse aim so the Scope will help. Without reliable crits (except when going out of concealment) you'll mostly finish wounded or lesser targets but you can clear a lot of those in a single turn.
• Specialist
  • Overwatch build : Hair Trigger - Laser Sight - Exp Mag. Cool under pressure allows crit on reaction shots so i can get both +THC and + crit.
  • Other : Scope - Exp Mag - Suppressor. Basic setup for better THC and more shots before you need to reload
• Technical : Suppressor on their SMG. Scope and Exp Mag when i have any excess.

Overall

• Scope : Always useful unless you go for High Crit (you need high base Aim and possibly another source of Aim such as a Stock)
• Exp Mag : Always useful
• Suppressor : Always useful unless you have don't have enough slots. Reduced infiltration helps on infiltration missions, reduced noise can make the difference between fighting one pod or three on ambushes
• Laser Sight : Useful on high base aim soldiers going for a crit build or on shotgun users (mostly Assaults but you could give a shotgun to a grenadier if he has high enough move). Also useful on overwatch builds with a hair trigger
• Hair Trigger : specific to overwatch builds but very useful for them. I use them with Laser Sight for + THC and crit but could use Scope + Hair trigger for a "good at everything" Ranger
• Stocks : Niche mod that performs an incredible job with the right soldier build
• Autoloaders : Niche mod that's really only useful with "Free reload anytime" mod (thanks to -bg- for this mod and plenty of other useful mods). Without this mod you'll waste the free reload in 9/10 missions where it could have been useful, which is not every mission but at least with this mod it's a nice insurance when things go south.

[thefieryphoenix1]

Scopes should take 1 action and not end your turn. Otherwise they are useless except on snipers.

I have armed tothe teeth, so removing stocks there are 6 options tofit in 4 categories. Some more options would be a nice change.

[aedn]

If a grenadier, technical, or specialist is not going to move or act on that turn, its much more useful to steady weapon provided you do not need to use other actions, as it offers you an additional decent shot at an enemy on the next turn.

Correct me if I'm using faulty maths here, but aren't two low probabilty shots still better than or at least equally good as one slightly higher one in most cases?

Let's say your grenadier has a 30% chance of hitting an enemy. If you shoot twice in two turns, the overall chance of hitting at least once is about 50% - the same as it would be if you used advanced (!) stocks and shot once on the following turn. You'd also have a 10% chance to hit with *both* shots, though, which would make the non-stock option even slightly better.

The higher the average hit-chance is, the more unreasonable it becomes to use stocks on non-sniper soldiers. If your grenadier had an 50% chance to hit on average, the chance to hit at least once with two shots would be 75%, while a single stocked shot on the second turn would only give you 70%. The chance to hit twice, though, would be 25% - a significant advantage. Granted: the lower the average hit chance of a non-shooty character is, the more useful stocks become. Obviously, it is better to take one 20% shot than two 0% ones. I actually don't remember right now what a low-aim soldier's hit chance against enemies in cover is on average - please inform me if you do. : /

The question is, however, if you'd ever want to rather stay put and use a turn to aim with a grenadier, technical or their like, even in the case that their un-stocked double hit chance would be lower than the single stocked one. My gut feeling is that there would always be something better to do in that case, like moving forward to a better bombard position, flanking or merely hunkering down.

The only thing that makes stocks extremely useful for snipers is the fact that they always stay put and almost never have anything better to do than use Steady Weapon in case an enemy wanders into their field of fire. That, and their abilty to do it after a kill with Death from Above - the only viable option apart from reloading. All other classes would rather do something else, in my opinion - or merely fire twice, since the result should be about the same as steadying their weapon, maybe even better.

Been busy, but its largely about giving you options. Most of the time you would not be using it. However, its basically a zero cost situational item that has minimal value if sold, and is potentially useful. Since its a niche item that most aim classes will not take, putting it on low aim characters who do not spend a lot of time shooting just adds to the number of options you can use as you see fit. grenadiers are not always going to be moving, hunkering or throwing grenades or support items. Giving the grenadier a stock has no detrimental impact. While you can give him a scope or other item, even with vulture those items tend to be rare and prioritized for primary weapons classes.