Weapon upgrades

[Undershaft]

This is how I use them. Curious to learn if there are more sensible alternatives.
Suppressor is always an alternative for the third (or fourth) slot.

Ranger (and basically every assault rifle user): Scope, Expanded Magazine, Autoloader (for Crit-Rangers) or Hair Trigger (for Overwatchers - essential)
Assault (shotgun variety at least): Laser Sight, Expanded Magazine, Autoloader
Sharpshooter: Scope, Stock (very good for Snipers and snipers only), Expanded Magazine; + Autoloader (very useful with Serial)
Gunner: Scope, Hair Trigger, Expanded Magazine (*maybe* high quality Autoloader)
Shinobi, Technical, Grenadier - basically every smg user: Suppressor, Scope, Expanded Magazine

Conclusions:
- The stock seems to be the most niche upgrade and is only really valid for one (sub-)class. It might have to be buffed - maybe to a non-activated or green-action aim boost (higher than scope) dependent on remaining or having remained stationary (although that would diminish a sniper's Death from Above somewhat).

- Laser sights are only for shotgun assaults and maybe high aim snipers who want to up their crit range. Maybe it would be a good idea to make them combinable with scopes to offer new alternatives here.

- The scope is almost universally superior. Maybe it should be made mutually exclusive with hair triggers and the (revised) stock.

[seananigans]

I use a laser sight rather than scope for my overwatch rangers, to great effect.

[nmkaplan]

Remember that Scope aim bonuses don't apply to overwatch shots, but laser sights do apply extra crit to OW shots taken with Cool Under Pressure. So on reaction shot-heavy builds (rapid rxn rangers, suppression gunners, CCS assaults) you're always better off with a hair trigger and a laser sight.

Curiously, you don't mention hair triggers at all in your original post. You do mention repeaters, despite the fact that they don't exist in Long War, so your post is a little confusing in that respect.

[Undershaft]

Curiously, you don't mention hair triggers at all in your original post. You do mention repeaters, despite the fact that they don't exist in Long War, so your post is a little confusing in that respect.

Ooops, I confused the two while writing this. Will edit it accordingly.

And granted, on an overwatch build, laser sights would be better than scopes. I don't use them much, a big fan of crit rangers. : )

[trihero]

Ranger (and basically every assault rifle user): Scope, Expanded Magazine, Autoloader (for Crit-Rangers) or Hair Trigger (for Overwatchers - essential)

I actually think autoloader is essential for both overwatching and crit rangers. I don't use scopes on overwatching rangers, and if I have the slot to spare I actually use laser sights instead of scopes on overwatching rangers because it works quite well with cool under pressure.

Gunner: Scope, Hair Trigger, Expanded Magazine (*maybe* high quality Autoloader)

High quality autoloader is higher in priority to me than hair trigger. These guys chew up ammo FAST and it's really bad to spend an action reloading in many situations, it's like stunning yourself for 1 action point.

[Devon_v]

I like autoloaders and scopes for Rangers, Assaults get first dibs on the laser sights, expanded mags and hair triggers go to Gunners, Sharpshooters get the stocks.

Overall scopes are the best, IMO.

[aedn]

- The stock seems to be the most niche upgrade and is only really valid for one (sub-)class. It might have to be buffed - maybe to a non-activated or green-action aim boost (higher than scope) dependent on remaining or having remained stationary (although that would diminish a sniper's Death from Above somewhat).

Stocks in general are useful on low aim characters that do not shoot all that often. If a grenadier, technical, or specialist is not going to move or act on that turn, its much more useful to steady weapon provided you do not need to use other actions, as it offers you an additional decent shot at an enemy on the next turn. I have found them to be situational at times when you need a bit of damage, but do not want to use a consumable, and abilities of those classes are on cooldown.

[trihero]

I've idly wondered about putting a stock on a gunner to set up a good saturation fire, but it feels like the situation comes up too infrequently to be a big deal. It might be an ok idea for opening from concealment, but it would mean not having another weapon mod which is probabbly more useful (scope/loader/extender are desirable as is).

[Undershaft]

If a grenadier, technical, or specialist is not going to move or act on that turn, its much more useful to steady weapon provided you do not need to use other actions, as it offers you an additional decent shot at an enemy on the next turn.

Correct me if I'm using faulty maths here, but aren't two low probabilty shots still better than or at least equally good as one slightly higher one in most cases?

Let's say your grenadier has a 30% chance of hitting an enemy. If you shoot twice in two turns, the overall chance of hitting at least once is about 50% - the same as it would be if you used advanced (!) stocks and shot once on the following turn. You'd also have a 10% chance to hit with *both* shots, though, which would make the non-stock option even slightly better.

The higher the average hit-chance is, the more unreasonable it becomes to use stocks on non-sniper soldiers. If your grenadier had an 50% chance to hit on average, the chance to hit at least once with two shots would be 75%, while a single stocked shot on the second turn would only give you 70%. The chance to hit twice, though, would be 25% - a significant advantage. Granted: the lower the average hit chance of a non-shooty character is, the more useful stocks become. Obviously, it is better to take one 20% shot than two 0% ones. I actually don't remember right now what a low-aim soldier's hit chance against enemies in cover is on average - please inform me if you do. : /

The question is, however, if you'd ever want to rather stay put and use a turn to aim with a grenadier, technical or their like, even in the case that their un-stocked double hit chance would be lower than the single stocked one. My gut feeling is that there would always be something better to do in that case, like moving forward to a better bombard position, flanking or merely hunkering down.

The only thing that makes stocks extremely useful for snipers is the fact that they always stay put and almost never have anything better to do than use Steady Weapon in case an enemy wanders into their field of fire. That, and their abilty to do it after a kill with Death from Above - the only viable option apart from reloading. All other classes would rather do something else, in my opinion - or merely fire twice, since the result should be about the same as steadying their weapon, maybe even better.

[trihero]

Correct me if I'm using faulty maths here, but aren't two low probabilty shots still better than or at least equally good as one slightly higher one in most cases?

I generally tend to agree with you. Just as a bit of nitpick, there's a possible situation where a stock would take you to 100% chance to hit, in this case the certainty of the 100% hit can outweigh two less-than-100% hits especially if it's a scary target. Of course, if you have two 90% chance to hit, on average you will do more damage than one 100% hit, but sometimes the certainty can affect your tactical decision. Still, I generally agree with your conclusions.

Yes, for example I would rather take two 50's than one 75. In this case in fact interestingly enough, you are overall just as likely to land 1 hit in either scenario, and equally likely to completely miss in either scenario, with the benefits of the two 50's being you could land twice and you could switch targets if you so pleased.

[aimlessgun]

Autoloader and ext mags were pretty high priority for my Rangers and Gunners. Since they essentially give you extra actions and shots you otherwise could not have taken due to reloading, they are super valuable. If I try to do some napkin math...

Adv. Scope on a gunner who has an average of 70% hit chance, taking it to 80%. If he fires 8 shots requiring aim in a mission, then this scope is worth hitting an extra .8 shots.

If instead you have an Adv. Autoloader, which I would rate as probably allowing 2 extra shots in a mission, at 70% hit chance that's worth hitting 1.4 extra shots.

Obviously I'd rather have both though. Ext Mags/Autoloader/Scope for my gunners (I did double grenadier setups so they only Area Supressed in emergencies), Ext Mags/Autoloader/Hair Trigger for my overwatch Rangers. Sniper was Stock/Scope, then whichever was the best Ext Mag or Autoloader I still had left. Assault is pretty locked into Laser Sight, Ext Mags, Autoloader.

[8wayz]

The Stock can be used to some effect on Grenadiers and Technicals, as they have limited supplies of explosives during a mission.

I have a Grenadier with Damn Good Ground (AWC) who wields a rifle and am looking for a stock to put on him.

Thus, with an Elite Stock, on higher Elevation and with either Tracer rounds or Laser rifle, that is +50 Aim and extra crit chance. If I want to go all in, I can even add some Dragon/Viper rounds.

All of a sudden that Grenadier can actually become useful at taking care of high value targets during a long mission.

The main point here is that depending on the Perks you get via the AWC, it might probably change your class perks for that soldier, as well as its weapon and weapon mods.

[Undershaft]

Just as a bit of nitpick, there's a possible situation where a stock would take you to 100% chance to hit, in this case the certainty of the 100% hit can outweigh two less-than-100% hits especially if it's a scary target.

I'm now wondering how the graze band affects this whole line of thought. If I understand the process correctly, there are no "real" 100% shots anymore. Theoretically, this should make the use of stocks on non-snipers even more ineffective, since it somewhat reduces the small 100% advantage you mentioned and, even more importantly in my opinion, serves to make the actual average hit chance higher than stated, which, as I argued, further improves the advantage of shooting twice instead of once.

[Undershaft]

The Stock can be used to some effect on Grenadiers and Technicals, as they have limited supplies of explosives during a mission.

I have a Grenadier with Damn Good Ground (AWC) who wields a rifle and am looking for a stock to put on him.

Thus, with an Elite Stock, on higher Elevation and with either Tracer rounds or Laser rifle, that is +50 Aim and extra crit chance.

But that would mean that your grenadier already has a rather good chance of hitting things, which, as demonstrated, makes it even more sensible to shoot twice. Stocks would only be of service if you couldn't shoot this turn at all and *knew* that next turn you would - but using stocks in this situation would be a missed overwatch opportunity. So basically, it never ("well, hardly ever") makes sense to put them on anything but a sniper rifle.

[8wayz]

Take for example Salvo grenade + Stock.

As you clear cover it would be better if someone, like a Sniper with Serial or two Rangers, can clear the rest of the pod. On the next turn the Grenadier can again Salvo + Shot someone who is still in cover and the +45/50 additional Aim will negate that high cover bonus.

The Stock is essentially to counter targets who are still in high cover without risking activating another pod with and Assault, Shinobi or SPARK.

With Dragon or Viper rounds this is a great way to neutralise a high value target, as it will chip away its health and also apply other penalties to it.

High Value targets being officers, Psi Aliens, Melee fighters and others.

[Undershaft]

As you clear cover it would be better if someone, like a Sniper with Serial or two Rangers, can clear the rest of the pod. On the next turn the Grenadier can again Salvo + Shot someone who is still in cover and the +45/50 additional Aim will negate that high cover bonus.

Or you could salvo and shoot twice at the target in full cover with just the +25/30 bonus, which should still be better than doing so once with a +45/50 one. That's the point I've been trying to make here.

The Stock is essentially to counter targets who are still in high cover without risking activating another pod with and Assault, Shinobi or SPARK.

Ok, but your chance to hit would have to be *really* low for the stock to become a reasonable alternative. Even at 15%, shooting twice results in a 28% chance to hit at least once. With a standard stock, it wouldn't be much higher (30%). *And* with shooting twice you'd have the chance to hit twice, and earlier as well. Also, I still haven't done the grazing shot maths, which will probably make the whole argument even clearer.

With Dragon or Viper rounds this is a great way to neutralise a high value target, as it will chip away its health and also apply other penalties to it.

Another argument for shooting twice with a slightly smaller chance per shot instead of once, in my opinion, since even a graze will apply the effect.

[8wayz]

I think the main reason for the discrepancy between your calculations and in-game experience is that you are making them in vacuum, not considering that the Stock-wielding soldier is part of a squad.

I usually have a Sniper who can take care of 1 High Value target in cover per turn (without any extra perks). Having a second person to cover for him mid-range targets actually lets you free up your Sniper shot for another target.

If I miss that first or second shot with said cover man (Grenadier in my case), the Sniper will have to take care of that target regardless.

In practical terms it does not really matter if you can take one or two shots. You are using that soldier as a Marksman and thus that target should not be alive or operational on its next turn. So you only have one shot and you better make it count.

To sum it up:

First turn:
- HP Grenade and then Stock as actions on the Grenadier.
- The Sniper takes care of a high value target or all remaining targets thanks to Serial.

Second turn:
- Another HP grenade if needed and high chance shot at a high value target with the Grenadier.
- This frees up the sniper to take care of someone outside of the line of sight of the squad.

[Jadiel]

If you fire a grenade on the second turn, then you'll lose the Steady Weapon bonus on your shot. Salvo makes Stocks worse, not better in my opinion. Stocks are pretty much only for sniper rifles.

Does anyone know if steadying affects Rockets? It seems like it shouldn't, but steadying on Rocketeers was a big thing in LW1.

[8wayz]

I will test both later today, once I get a stock again on a Grenadier and Technical.

The main point of Salvo is letting you Steady after firing a grenade. On the second turn I take the shot since there is no need for a second grenade.

[Undershaft]

I think the main reason for the discrepancy between your calculations and in-game experience is that you are making them in vacuum, not considering that the Stock-wielding soldier is part of a squad.

No vacuum here (God, I'm starting to hate that term, so overused on this forum), just basic probability. Works regardless of squad acitivity.

In practical terms it does not really matter if you can take one or two shots. You are using that soldier as a Marksman and thus that target should not be alive or operational on its next turn. So you only have one shot and you better make it count.

Erm... yes, it *does* matter, since (I'm repeating myself here) two shots with a slightly lower to-hit-chance will usually net you a higher overall to-hit-chance than one slightly better shot does. That's why rapid fire is so good.

First turn:
- HP Grenade and then Stock as actions on the Grenadier.
- The Sniper takes care of a high value target or all remaining targets thanks to Serial.

Second turn:
- Another HP grenade if needed and high chance shot at a high value target with the Grenadier.
- This frees up the sniper to take care of someone outside of the line of sight of the squad.

Let me rephrase that for you:

First turn: Grenade, then *no real action*
Second turn: Grenade, then one shot with a slightly higher to-hit-chance

The better alternative:

First turn: Grenade, then shot number 1
Second turn: Grenade, then shot number 2

Now let's do the math (again!): Assuming you're firing at a target in high cover, let's say you have a 30% chance to hit (should be higher in the case of your super grenadier). At the end of the second turn, *your* way you will have launched two grenades and taken *one* shot with a likelihood of 45-55%, depending on which kind of stock you use (55% only with an *Elite* one), to hit the intended target once. If you had fired directly (without using Steady Weapon that is), however, you would have launched two grenades and taken two shots, each of which at only 30% - but with a combined likelihood of *51%* to hit the target once.

The better your shooter's aim, the better shooting twice becomes. At 40%, two shots will be the "superior equivalent" of one delayed 65% Elite stock shot. And so on and so on. I'm not even mentioning the possibility of earlier and double hits and switching targets or the effect of the graze band anymore, my point should be very clear by now.

I'm beginning to think that you attribute the usefulness and accuracy of your grenadier to Steady Weapon only, while in truth, he is just pretty good at shooting in general. All the while, you have wasted one valuable weapon upgrade slot on a gimmick that, at the end of the day, doesn't improve your performance at all. Better take anything else, really.

[Jacke]

The other factor here is to get Salvo you have to pass up either Combat Engineer or Full Kit on a Grenadier, Tactical Sense or Quickburn on a Technical. Getting Salvo just to be able to use a stock on either a Grenadier or Technical is passing up seriously good perks for something that's more situational and rarely likely to be better than just shooting twice.

I can see maybe getting Salvo on a Technical for flexibility, especially if used sometimes as a Haven Advisor. For a Grenadier, both Combat Engineer and Full Kit are so much better and an Officer can Command the Grenadier to get the effect of Salvo. I can't see getting Salvo for either just to use a stock on the primary weapon.

[Undershaft]

If instead you have an Adv. Autoloader, which I would rate as probably allowing 2 extra shots in a mission, at 70% hit chance that's worth hitting 1.4 extra shots.

I have a feeling that you're giving the autoloader too much (or at least too specific) credit in this particular case. On gunners, it wouldn't be the equivalent of two extra shots, since they can use only one shooting-action per turn (assuming you didn't forego the awesomeness that is Saturation Fire). As long as there are eligible targets in range, a white reload is just as good as a green one - and, given the gunner's tendency to empty their magazines in a jiffy, it's not unlikely that their first reload *will* occur while there are still good targets in range, or between firefights, where a free reload is even less useful. In my experience, the value of an autoloader for a gunner lies in being able to move on an empty magazine (instead of wasting the first action on reloading) before using a costly special attack, at least in the first encounter- but that value evaporates quickly, is very situational and therefore not easily quantifiable.

In case of rangers and snipers, however, you are right. In a firefight, (almost) every reload would be a wasted shot for those two classes, so an advanced autoloader could be rated as two extra ones - or at least earlier ones, saving you valuable mission time and the risk of wounded soldiers. On a serial sniper, it is worth even more.

[Jadiel]

It's a lot less true on a DfA sniper. On a DfA sniper, reloads are generally going to be instead of steadying (assuming that you don't get a lull in the fighting in which case reloads only cost you a reposition move which you likely didn't want to take anyway), making an advanced autoloader as good as a stock you can use at most twice. I'd generally prefer an expanded magazine to an autoloader, but what I'd really like is to be able to put a laser sight together with my scope...

ETA: It changes a bit if you take Serial, as noted.

[Undershaft]

Let's get back to the original purpose of this thread: Improving the weapon upgrade system.
LW2 has already made it more diverse (at least on one particular level) in giving us three different mods that improve aim in three different ways: Scopes (for non-overwatch shots), Hair Triggers (for overwatch shots) and Stocks (the highest aim boost, but at the cost of losing an action).

1) Why is the scope the only one of these that cannot be combined with a laser sight? Is it due to realism, balance issues or just a remnant of vanilla scopes?

2) What else could be done here? Basically, the two "new" upgrades mimic existing soldier abilities (Cool under Pressure and Aim). This could be built upon - just spitballing here without any real knowledge of actual weapon technology, mind you:

stabilizers (Locked On) , recoil dampeners (Walk Fire), repeaters (?) (Rapid Fire), high velocity barrels (Center Mass) - all of which would be weaker variants of the abilities or with some kind of (additional) drawback, of course, like reduced aim.

But maybe that would take away too much of what makes certain classes special, however, or be a nightmare to balance.
So what kinds of weapon addons would you like to have?

[nightwyrm]

My problem with the Stock is that you're essentially committing to 3 actions for a buffed shot once you use Steady Weapon. Your action this turn. Your blue action next turn (coz you can't move or do any other blue action or you lose the buff!) and your next shot. This is less of a problem with a Sniper since he needs 2 actions to shoot anyways and can have shots to lots of enemies from a high perch 2 screens away. But when you're in mid-range, there's always a reason to move, whether it's finding a flank, or getting better cover or just getting LOS to an enemy who moved back. That's not even mentioning timed missions where you always want to move and shoot. Stocks are just not useful for anyone who needs to re-position or use their blue actions for other things.