Rapid Response Overtuned?

[Ithuriel]

I currently have the "Rapid Response' Dark Event active in my campaign; it's only been active for about five days, and it already seems heavily overtuned to me. On a perfectly ordinary Rescue the VIP mission, with Extremely Light resistance, I had three reinforcement pods drop by 8 turns into the mission (out of 14). I nuked the first mission pod I encountered within a turn and killed all but one ADVENT trooper in one turn for the next pod; apart from that I literally sprinted, all yellow moves, towards the VIP/extraction point. There ended up being 21 soldiers present on a mission with "Extremely Light" resistance. (Also, if you're going to tell me not to break concealment that early- I'd like not to, but there were 4 drones in sight turn 2.)

I also shortly afterwards ran a Network Tower mission. Within a seven-turn period after my breaking concealment, 3 reinforcement pods dropped. The mission was supposedly Light resistance, but I had to kill 28 enemies. Am I simply dealing with this wrong? By comparison, the last Network Tower mission I ran had a single reinforcement pod that dropped the turn before I hacked the objective. I understand the idea being this Dark Event- but frankly to me it seems drastically overtuned. On almost every mission, running as fast and sneaky as I possibly can, I have to kill more reinforcements than there were enemies on the map originally.

Does anybody have any advice for me, or failing that feedback on this Event's balance?

[gimrah]

The reinforcement timer starts from reveal. So break concealment as close to the objective as possible and get out swiftly.

But yeah, report as balance issue.

[gimrah]

And for network tower, use a shinobi to hit the objective before you lose concealment. That way to reinforcements at all.

[Ithuriel]

And for network tower, use a shinobi to hit the objective before you lose concealment. That way to reinforcements at all.

Would love to, but had no way past the patrols >.<

[Jadiel]

And for network tower, use a shinobi to hit the objective before you lose concealment. That way to reinforcements at all.

Would love to, but had no way past the patrols >.<

Trying to do a Network Tower without a Shinobi with Covert and Ghostwalker is always going to be a dice roll with regards to pod placement/patrol routes. You have 3 (or 4?) turns after breaking concealment to get to the console, which I've always found pretty straightforward.

Doing a Network Tower without a Shinobi at all is a whole other story, and I haven't tried it. I think Xwynns did his first tower that way though, so maybe check it out. He didn't have RR active though, and he was lucky with pod placement as I think he sneaked past at least one pod on the way to the objective.

[Ithuriel]

And for network tower, use a shinobi to hit the objective before you lose concealment. That way to reinforcements at all.

Would love to, but had no way past the patrols >.<

Trying to do a Network Tower without a Shinobi with Covert and Ghostwalker is always going to be a dice roll with regards to pod placement/patrol routes. You have 3 (or 4?) turns after breaking concealment to get to the console, which I've always found pretty straightforward.

Why do you say 3 or 4 turns? I took a fair bit longer than that, though I admittedly had to blow through a few reinforcements. ...also I'm starting to feel like everybody on this forum just cheeses missions and expects me to know about it? >.< This is literally the first and second time I've ever run a Network Tower mission, so I had no clue what to expect XD It's kinda like from LW1 with Newfoundland- how it basically gave me PTSD but people on forums kept saying it was laughably easy. Sure, it is if you know exactly what to expect and go into it calculated with Corporals as your highest ranks, only laser weapons, and no idea what's coming... (Also people kept saying it was laughably easy with MECs. ...sure it may be, but I literally didn't get MECs until months later >.<)

[Jadiel]

Would love to, but had no way past the patrols >.<

Trying to do a Network Tower without a Shinobi with Covert and Ghostwalker is always going to be a dice roll with regards to pod placement/patrol routes. You have 3 (or 4?) turns after breaking concealment to get to the console, which I've always found pretty straightforward.

Why do you say 3 or 4 turns? I took a fair bit longer than that, though I admittedly had to blow through a few reinforcements. ...also I'm starting to feel like everybody on this forum just cheeses missions and expects me to know about it? >.< This is literally the first and second time I've ever run a Network Tower mission, so I had no clue what to expect XD It's kinda like from LW1 with Newfoundland- how it basically gave me PTSD but people on forums kept saying it was laughably easy. Sure, it is if you know exactly what to expect and go into it calculated with Corporals as your highest ranks, only laser weapons, and no idea what's coming... (Also people kept saying it was laughably easy with MECs. ...sure it may be, but I literally didn't get MECs until months later >.<)

Because you have 3 or 4 turns from when you break concealment before the first reinforcements arrive. Once you hack the tower, no more reinforcements come in, and you just have to sweep the map to win the mission.

I'm not sure what you mean by cheesing missions - I'm pretty sure the intended mechanic is that you distract pods with 4 soldiers and then sneak in to the console and hack it, stunning the enemy your 4 soldiers are fighting and allowing them to mop up.

LW1 & 2 were basically designed around the player knowing what to expect on missions (especially on difficulty levels above rookie), because they're intended to be replayable. That means that you have a rough time if you go into it without knowing what's going on (Newfoundland is the classic example of this), but on the upside it means that the game remains challenging when you decide to have another go.

[Alketi]

Yep, Rapid Response means reinforcements starting at I believe 3 turns after reveal and then roughly every 2 (sometimes 3) turns after that. It's active on my campaign now too.

Might as well just take the whole month off to either do troop columns and/or stealth only missions.

Regarding the Network Tower, someone on reddit was claiming that the patrol pathing had been changed in 1.2 to make stealthing all but impossible. i.e. they now path down the final two catwalks and edge-to-edge. I haven't been able to confirm myself.

[MacroNova]

I agree this Dark Event is overtuned. It is way too punishing compared to the other possibilities and basically makes your campaign live or die on rng. It becomes extremely difficult to do any times missions non-stealth which means no xp for your troops or lots of wounds.

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

I dont think the dark event is as bad as people claim it is. Yes, the first time I had to deal with it I raged hard as I tried to do a "destroy device" mission the typical way. However if you know the event is active, you just have to resort to a more stealth oriented approach. Try to be near the objective before breaking concealment, throw the flare, evac.

On the other hand, maybe people are just too sick of "stealthing to the objective" in general , which I can fully understand (and pavonis is aware off). But it really is not like rapid response makes missions unwinnable for a month. You certainly have to play extra carefully to avoid early detection. Now Rapid Response in combination with the increased detection range dark event on the other hand .....

[Kharneth]

Regarding the Network Tower, someone on reddit was claiming that the patrol pathing had been changed in 1.2 to make stealthing all but impossible. i.e. they now path down the final two catwalks and edge-to-edge. I haven't been able to confirm myself.

Probably he have bad luck, I already did two networks in 1.2 and my shinoby stealth it as usual. I had some trouble in the second because my main team was discover but the shinoby was two turns from hacking, so not really a big deal

[Alketi]

I dont think the dark event is as bad as people claim it is. Yes, the first time I had to deal with it I raged hard as I tried to do a "destroy device" mission the typical way. However if you know the event is active, you just have to resort to a more stealth oriented approach. Try to be near the objective before breaking concealment, throw the flare, evac.

If you're playing true Ironman, this is a harrowing Dark Event.

Yes, your only option is to stealth all the way to the objective and throw the flare on the same turn as you break concealment. I was able to do this on an Extremely Light mission and still got the reinforcement warning on the same turn I evac'd (i.e. 3 turns after breaking concealment).

On a Very Light (or worse) mission you're liable to have the typical, ever-present, rogue Drone appear near your spawn point and make an absolute Bee Line toward you. God help you if you can't avoid it and get revealed early.

[Tuhalu]

Yep, Rapid Response means reinforcements starting at I believe 3 turns after reveal and then roughly every 2 (sometimes 3) turns after that. It's active on my campaign now too.

Reinforcements consists of multiple factors:

• A rising alert modifier as turns go past. Starts at 0.20, but rises to 0.675 after 20 turns.
• A randomized adjustment of the alert modifier (between 30% less or more)
• A difficulty modifier. Only relevant to Veteran and Rookie where it reduces the number slightly.
• Specific mission modifiers. For standard stealthable missions, this is 0. The special Snare mission has 0.5.
• The rapid response modifier with baked in difficulty variance. It's 0.2 at Commander and Legend.

All these modifiers are added together each turn and added to the current value. If the number is above 1, a new reinforcment spawns and the number is reduced by one.

On Commander and Legendary, with Rapid Response active, you can expect to see RNF after 3 turns, but you might get unlucky and see it after 2 turns. The next one is 3 turns later, but you might get unlucky and see it after 2. After that it jumps up to every 2 rounds with the occasional 1 round gap. You barely get started fighting when you are swamped with numbers. Within 7 turns you'll have to have fought your way through any normal enemies plus 3 entire reinforcement pods.

Compare this to the baseline where you can expect your first RNF after 5 turns (give or take a turn), then 3 turns later, then 3 turns after that, then after 2 turns for most RNF after that. You can probably get through the combat part of a mission in 8 turns, so that second RNF really isn't much of a big deal.

Reinforcements with Rapid Response active start coming in much earlier and stack up higher much faster. Even on Veteran difficulty, where the Rapid Response modifier is only 0.15 (and you get -0.1 difficulty modifier), I find Rapid Response to be a massive damper on actually fighting through a mission. Reinforcements coming out close to twice as fast as normal for an entire month is just horrible.

And just hope you don't get a Snare mission on a Rapid Response month. You'll be up to your neck in RNF before you can blink (RNF nearly every single round).

[Jadiel]

Yep, Rapid Response means reinforcements starting at I believe 3 turns after reveal and then roughly every 2 (sometimes 3) turns after that. It's active on my campaign now too.

Might as well just take the whole month off to either do troop columns and/or stealth only missions.

Regarding the Network Tower, someone on reddit was claiming that the patrol pathing had been changed in 1.2 to make stealthing all but impossible. i.e. they now path down the final two catwalks and edge-to-edge. I haven't been able to confirm myself.

I saw pods pathing through my deployment zone in 1.1, so that's not new. I don't know what you mean by edge-to-edge.

[Alketi]

I saw pods pathing through my deployment zone in 1.1, so that's not new. I don't know what you mean by edge-to-edge.

No idea. I'm only repeating what was posted on Reddit.

Personally I've never had pods path through the deployment zone on a Network Tower. The furthest they've come for me is half-way down the side corridor, where the Dropship usually sits.

[Ithuriel]

LW1 & 2 were basically designed around the player knowing what to expect on missions (especially on difficulty levels above rookie), because they're intended to be replayable. That means that you have a rough time if you go into it without knowing what's going on (Newfoundland is the classic example of this), but on the upside it means that the game remains challenging when you decide to have another go.

Thank you for giving me goddamn flashbacks XD ...I only took one run through LW1, and I went into Newfoundland with no idea what to expect, laser weaponry, and one or two Sergeants at max. I later took a look at the forums where people dismissed it as easy because you could cheese it, and they ran it with a MEC; I didn't get a MEC for like months afterwards XD

[Ithuriel]

I dont think the dark event is as bad as people claim it is. Yes, the first time I had to deal with it I raged hard as I tried to do a "destroy device" mission the typical way. However if you know the event is active, you just have to resort to a more stealth oriented approach. Try to be near the objective before breaking concealment, throw the flare, evac.

If you're playing true Ironman, this is a harrowing Dark Event.

Yes, your only option is to stealth all the way to the objective and throw the flare on the same turn as you break concealment. I was able to do this on an Extremely Light mission and still got the reinforcement warning on the same turn I evac'd (i.e. 3 turns after breaking concealment).

On a Very Light (or worse) mission you're liable to have the typical, ever-present, rogue Drone appear near your spawn point and make an absolute Bee Line toward you. God help you if you can't avoid it and get revealed early.

Yeah. This has been my experience. Repeatedly.

On Commander and Legendary, with Rapid Response active, you can expect to see RNF after 3 turns, but you might get unlucky and see it after 2 turns. The next one is 3 turns later, but you might get unlucky and see it after 2. After that it jumps up to every 2 rounds with the occasional 1 round gap. You barely get started fighting when you are swamped with numbers. Within 7 turns you'll have to have fought your way through any normal enemies plus 3 entire reinforcement pods.

Compare this to the baseline where you can expect your first RNF after 5 turns (give or take a turn), then 3 turns later, then 3 turns after that, then after 2 turns for most RNF after that. You can probably get through the combat part of a mission in 8 turns, so that second RNF really isn't much of a big deal.

Reinforcements with Rapid Response active start coming in much earlier and stack up higher much faster. Even on Veteran difficulty, where the Rapid Response modifier is only 0.15 (and you get -0.1 difficulty modifier), I find Rapid Response to be a massive damper on actually fighting through a mission. Reinforcements coming out close to twice as fast as normal for an entire month is just horrible.

I think your math might be a little off? Because I'm playing on Veteren (my first time running the campaign) Bronzeman, and on a recent Rescue the VIP mission reinforcements dropped 3 turns after I broke concealment, and every 2 turns from that point forwards...

[Tuhalu]

On Commander and Legendary, with Rapid Response active, you can expect to see RNF after 3 turns, but you might get unlucky and see it after 2 turns. The next one is 3 turns later, but you might get unlucky and see it after 2. After that it jumps up to every 2 rounds with the occasional 1 round gap. You barely get started fighting when you are swamped with numbers. Within 7 turns you'll have to have fought your way through any normal enemies plus 3 entire reinforcement pods.

Compare this to the baseline where you can expect your first RNF after 5 turns (give or take a turn), then 3 turns later, then 3 turns after that, then after 2 turns for most RNF after that. You can probably get through the combat part of a mission in 8 turns, so that second RNF really isn't much of a big deal.

Reinforcements with Rapid Response active start coming in much earlier and stack up higher much faster. Even on Veteran difficulty, where the Rapid Response modifier is only 0.15 (and you get -0.1 difficulty modifier), I find Rapid Response to be a massive damper on actually fighting through a mission. Reinforcements coming out close to twice as fast as normal for an entire month is just horrible.

I think your math might be a little off? Because I'm playing on Veteren (my first time running the campaign) Bronzeman, and on a recent Rescue the VIP mission reinforcements dropped 3 turns after I broke concealment, and every 2 turns from that point forwards...

Depends on the 30% fudge factor (I don't know if it rolls for this each round or once per mission). My numbers are for the 'average' result. With very good or very bad luck it can be more or less than those numbers.