[Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

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Thrair
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[Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Thrair »

So. Gunners are still rather overpowered compared to the other classes. Most of this problem lies in the power of the “cooldown” builds, that cycles several very potent cooldowns to extreme effect.

By contrast, their Suppression build is merely strong. Especially with the rather justified nerf to Danger Zone’s radius bonus (which is fair nerf, imo). The shooty build, meanwhile, just doesn’t compete with the cooldown build. I’d argue it’s even a bit weaker than the Suppression build, but not to such a degree that it’s a no-brainer. After all, someone has to actually kill the bad guys.

Now... first of all, I can confirm through my current campaign that the Hail of Bullets nerf has had almost no impact on Gunners. As I outlined in another thread, they aren’t hampered by the ammo change as they aren’t reliant on mobility. They just reload and use one of their cooldowns. And, as a side-effect, the ammo nerf bleeds over into AWC classes with lesser base damage/ammo.

Making more of their cooldown abilities compete with one another is the the best way to address the issue, I think. Nerfing the perks directly has a lot of nasty side effects. Most of these perks are not themselves overpowered; rather the problem lies in the Gunner’s ability to select a half-dozen of them and always have one available during a turn.

Now, as to the suggestion of reworking their perk tree to have more of their high-quality perks compete with one another, here’s the perk tree I would have:

LCPL: Center Mass|Combatives|Lockdown
CPL: Shredder|Formidable|Grazing Fire
SGT: Flush|Iron Curtain|Mayhem
SSGT: Chain Shot|Hail of Bullets|Demolition
TSGT: Cyclic Fire|Danger Zone|Cool Under Pressure
GSGT: Saturation Fire|Rapid Fire|Traverse Fire
MSGT: Rupture|Combat Fitness|Kill Zone

The result here results in a weaker “cooldown” Gunner with, I feel, minimal impact on shooty Gunners or Suppression Gunners.

LCPL:
-I’d choose to move Grazing Fire because it is a very potent perk, while Lockdown/Combatives are more niche and fairly balanced against each other. Center Mass will probably win out for general purpose, but tank Gunners might still take combatives, and Suppression Gunners might prefer the added chance to hit, especially early-game.
CPL:
-Shredder/Formidable/Grazing is fairly balanced, I feel. You choose between utility, tankiness, and damage reliability. Moving Hail to a higher rank also feels appropriate given that perk’s power.
SGT:
-Flush and Iron Curtain are relatively weak, as far as cooldown shots go. They have their uses, but they have no business competing with Demolition, which is virtually an auto-pick in that lineup. Besides which, I found it rather odd that Gunners were my best class for cover destruction in the early-mid game, as Grenadiers are unreliable until Combat Engineer kicks in all the way at max rank (and many of mine were support grenadiers, anyway). So I swapped Demolition with Mayhem. Mayhem is very strong, but is also rather niche to Suppression builds. I feel there’s a healthy choice matching the three against each other, as different breeds of niche utility (as opposed to nuking cover, which is always useful).
SSGT:
-Here is the rank where the real nerf hits. Matching Hail of Bullets, Demolition, and Chain Shot pairs up three cooldown abilities against each other. My experience early-mid game was, against enemies in full cover, I would either use use Demo and kill it with other soldiers, or HoB and kill it directly. If combat was lasting too much longer than two turns in a row, something was seriously fubar. And even then, I could area suppress and try and stall. Chain shot is probably the weakest of the three, here. Even in current 1.2, it’s more of a filler cooldown... But it’s still viable as a double-shot ability that stacks with Traverse Fire. And for shooty Gunners, it works very well with Grazing Fire. Hell, you might even remove the -5 aim penalty. It's like Rapid Reaction. If you miss, it craps out. Enough of a downside, imo. Especially with the higher dodge/defense of late-game enemies.
-As a side note, with this change.... PLEASE revert the ammo nerf to Hail of Bullets. It has not affected Gunners much in my 1.2 campaign, but has made the perk a pain in the ass to micromanage expanded mags on for other classes that roll it up in the AWC.
GSGT/MSGT: Unchanged. Those ranks actually feel quite balanced.


Thoughts? Here's the suggested perk tree as an image. I prolly spent more time than was really needed in MSPaint, making sure everything was lining up properly... but eh.
Image

PS: I might also suggest removing Rapid Reaction from Gunner's AWC pool. Since they have Grazing Fire and Cool Under Pressure... that one perk turns them into an Overwatch pwnmobile that puts Rangers to absolute shame. It's one thing to win the AWC lottery and get a strong soldier, but getting just that one perk basically makes them better than Rangers at the only job they're truly worth a damn on, atm (another issue, mind you).
Jadiel
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Jadiel »

I quite like the nerf to Hail of Bullets. In my experience, it has made my Gunners a bit less mobile than they used to be, and it feels truer to what the class should be.

To be honest, I think HoB should just be removed from the AWC. I would say the perk should only work with a SAW, for flavour reasons.
darkerevent
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by darkerevent »

I would feel more satisfied with the HoB nerf if it didn't primarily hurt early-game SAW (a.k.a. Cooldown) gunners who don't have access to Expanded Mags or Autoloaders yet. My SAW gunners in the midgame run both an Advanced Expanded Mag and an Advanced Autoloader and don't mind spending five ammo in a turn. On the other hand HoB is indeed now much less usable for non-gunners who happen to pick it up via the AWC.

To the list of suggested changes, I would add "make Flush decent." Something closer to its LW1 incarnation (which dealt about half of the gunner's normal damage, if I recall correctly) would help make competition on that row more interesting.
Jadiel
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Jadiel »

I think the problem with bringing it closer to its LW1 version is it starts stepping on Walk Fire's toes.
darkerevent
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by darkerevent »

Jadiel wrote:I think the problem with bringing it closer to its LW1 version is it starts stepping on Walk Fire's toes.
Since they're perks from two different classes who have different designs, roles, and perk synergies, I don't think the two perks are readily comparable.

Walk Fire has the advantage of normally being used after a Ranger's initial Light Em Up shot (and takes synergistic advantage of Lock On, Executioner, etc). Because of this, it's easy for Walk Fire to be situationally ideal for securing a kill on someone who ended up with 1 hp after the ranger's first shot. Importantly, there is also has no competing perk on the same row for a shooty ranger who plans on wielding a rifle and standing at medium/far range.

Meanwhile, a gunner's Flush appears to have no perk synergies at all for either its aim or its damage (Center Mass doesn't even work for it). It also suffers from negative action economy, requiring the gunner to end their turn in order to only maybe allow someone else to take a good reaction shot (and that doesn't happen if the Flush misses, as compared to something like the Technical's Roust which will always do it if they were in the AoE). Because of this, using Flush is almost always statistically worse than just using Demolition instead to blow the target's cover -- and Demolition is a perk on the very same row that competes with Flush.

Basically, my thinking is that if Flush is going to be unreliable for moving people, then it should at least do substantial damage if it hits, so that it can have usefulness outside of solely enabling reaction fire. Otherwise I can't really see a rationale for taking it over Demo.
gimrah
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by gimrah »

I broadly agree with the thrust, but I think you should probably be able to get both HoB and demolition on one soldier as those are the two that don't rely on aim. But by all means put them against proper shooty perks like chain shot and cyclic fire, which are also good but on more of a killy gunner.
stefan3iii
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by stefan3iii »

I agree that gunners are one of the strongest if not the strongest class for combat missions, simply due to their damage output from long range. I like the changes to the perk tree, I always build them as shooty gunners, what you propose would definitely weaken them a bit.

But one question I have is how you're using suppression gunners? I've heard others mention this, and I just can't wrap my brain around using reaction fire builds of any sort, at least not on harder difficulties. Once you're engaged in combat, you suppress/overwatch and then wait for the aliens to move? It seems incredibly risky, because it's rather unpredictable, you don't know who will move first, they may move while behind cover ruining your overwatch shot, and it just seems like you're inevitably going to be getting shot a lot.

But I've never tried it... that's just how I picture it.
Last edited by stefan3iii on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nightwyrm
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by nightwyrm »

stefan3iii wrote: But one question I have is how you're using suppression gunners? I've heard others mention this, and I just can't wrap my brain around using reaction fire builds of any sort, at least not on harder difficulties. Once you're engaged in combat, you suppress/overwatch and then wait for the aliens to move? It seems incredibly risky, because it's rather unpredictable, you don't know who will move first, they may move while behind cover ruining your overwatch shot, and it just seems like you're inevitably going to be getting shot a lot.

But I've never tried it... that's just how I picture it.
Suppression gunners works like Flashbangs. You're not relying on them to kill much stuff. They're there to prevent the aliens from killing you while you whittle down the pod with your other squad members.
Thrair
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Thrair »

Another part of it is that the AI will *always* move when flanked by a visible enemy.

Suppress, then move someone into a flank. They don't even need actions left (Although having Ever Vigilant helps cheese this, especially with the Threat Assessment PCS). Laugh as the Gunner gets at least two free shots. And with Mayhem, they do 25% more damage. It's not perfect, but it works fairly well. Especially when trying to eliminate some pesky asshat in high cover.

And that's IF you're feeling cheeky and trying for kills, instead of just pinning them down (Suppressed units have very few valid actions they can take). That said, it doesn't work as well as the cooldown Gunner. You can blow their cover (demo), auto-hit (hail) or shoot a line of baddies with a chance to blow their cover (Sat Fire).

As an aside, Suppression builds also work quite well on low-aim Gunners. Gunner's high aim progression means they almost certainly end up at least competent in terms of aim. Especially since most of their shots will be reaction fire with no cover bonus (tack on a hair trigger, maybe Lockdown/CUP), making their lower aim largely moot. And, again, the main purpose is locking them down.

Course, again, atm if they have low aim you just build 'em for cooldowns. *shrug*
gimrah
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by gimrah »

I'd love to try some alternative builds but atm I agree there are lots of great cooldowns and you never have to choose between the best ones.

A suppressy OW spec would be cool to use suppression aggressively. Even with poor aim, CuP, hair triggers and lockdown should counter pretty hard. You might just want to flash the targets instead for safety.

I'd love some way of making combatives more appealing. It would be so cool do to the Mutons' trick to a lancer but you can't control or even really predict who they go for. Maybe buff the dodge to 15. 10 doesn't seem that much if he can't get other dodge enhancing perks.
Alketi
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Alketi »

Just my opinion, but I again think there's a danger of treating the symptom and not the real problem.

Hail of Bullets and Demolition are both being selected because of the large boosts that have been given to:

1. Cover value
2. Cover strength
3. Defense
4. Tactical Sense

Since Sapper is so worthless, anything that guarantees cover destruction becomes valuable.

Since Defense is so over powered, anything that guarantees damage becomes valuable.

An enemy with tactical sense + defense + high cover is unhittable beyond lottery ticket repeatability, so today one needs to gamble with which cooldown they'll burn -- guaranteed damage or waste an action to destroy his cover.

Their long cooldowns mean they're generally usable once, perhaps twice, in a Guerrilla Op, which I personally don't consider over-powered nor in need of fixing.

But, let's assume you have to choose. Perhaps you choose Demolition for its guaranteed cover destruction over Hail of Bullets. What happens when you find out that a naked Gatekeeper runs around without any cover except it's own miraculous defense?

Further, piling both Demolition and Hail of Bullets into the same level might actually INCREASE the number of Gunners on a mission.

Right now, in a Guerrilla Op, I'm most likely to take a Ranger and a Gunner. However, if the Demolition and Hail of Bullets are neatly divided to prevent both being chosen, why wouldn't I bring two Gunners and no Rangers? That way, not only can I keep both skills, but I can further use them both same turn, which I can't do now with a single gunner. Is that the desired intent? Will there be calls to buff Rangers in response?
Goumindong
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Goumindong »

stefan3iii wrote:I agree that gunners are one of the strongest if not the strongest class for combat missions, simply due to their damage output from long range. I like the changes to the perk tree, I always build them as shooty gunners, what you propose would definitely weaken them a bit.

But one question I have is how you're using suppression gunners? I've heard others mention this, and I just can't wrap my brain around using reaction fire builds of any sort, at least not on harder difficulties. Once you're engaged in combat, you suppress/overwatch and then wait for the aliens to move? It seems incredibly risky, because it's rather unpredictable, you don't know who will move first, they may move while behind cover ruining your overwatch shot, and it just seems like you're inevitably going to be getting shot a lot.

But I've never tried it... that's just how I picture it.
Basically it works like this.

1) You stack gunners. 2 minimum.

2) Each gunner has grazing fire, hail of bullets*, and demolition

3) You figure out which group can successfully be area suppressed and place one gunner in a good location to do that. You then demolish the cover/hail of bullets the enemy systematically in an area so that you minimize the space that aliens have to move/take up.

4) Area suppress what is left.

Bonus points if you have viper or dragon rounds. The enemy is very likely to move and because you have grazing fire the enemy is very likely to be hit. So enemies will either shoot under suppression ineffectively or they will run the suppression and have a high liklihood of getting poisoned/on fire.

Additional high value CD abilities for everyone would be saturation fire as it also destroys cover. Cyclic fire and Chain shot are OK to good, but you're probably not going to have a lot of chance to use them effectively because you're likely going to be area suppressing or clearing cover. Rupture has some value as does kill zone though you probably don't want those on everyone.

*later in the game you may like shredder and you also might like lockdown too. With demolition hail of bullets isn't as necessary. And you're going to want to cycle your gunners on area suppress duty/demolotion/hail duty due to cooldowns anyway so unless you have a lot of gunners you won't have much chance to use those abilities.
trihero
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by trihero »

I'm not entirely convinced gunners are necessarily overpowered right now.

Sharpshooters hit from very far for very hard and are very accurate, so they have their place.

Grenadiers can set a lot of things on fire, so they have their place.

Rangers have crazy volume of fire, taking maximum advantage of enemies exposed by other methods, as well as overwatch traps

Assaults get street sweeper/chain lightning, admittedly take longer to develop but good in the end.

Technicals can also set a lot of things on fire and blow up cover, they have their place.

I kind of agree with joinrb's comment about gunners which is they are good at any stage of the game but not amazing either. Their cooldowns look good on paper, but they are pretty weak in between cooldowns, and if you're on a nontimed map then sharpshooters can easily compete or outdo gunners especially at better ranks.
stefan3iii
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by stefan3iii »

I don't know if gunners are stronger than Sharpshooters or Assaults, that's arguable, but I don't think they're much weaker either. They carry the strongest gun in the game, and can shoot 2 times a turn on different targets using Traverse fire. Both Xwynns and Jolnrbs don't like traverse, but it drastically increases your firepower on the missions you bring gunners to (ie not guerilla ops).
Thrair
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Thrair »

stefan3iii wrote:I don't know if gunners are stronger than Sharpshooters or Assaults, that's arguable, but I don't think they're much weaker either. They carry the strongest gun in the game, and can shoot 2 times a turn on different targets using Traverse fire. Both Xwynns and Jolnrbs don't like traverse, but it drastically increases your firepower on the missions you bring gunners to (ie not guerilla ops).
Sharpshooters take off mid-game and become very strong. They're one of the better classes for dealing damage. Assaults start REAL slow, but really kick off later.

Any event, I think the reason they don't like Traverse is because Saturation Fire is so damn good. Shoot a line of enemies (why I take Grazing and not Center Mass, btw), and often pop the cover of whatever lives. As opposed to shooting once and then using a cooldown or another standard shot. Properly lined up, Sat Fire can easily hit 3+ enemies. And god help the aliens if you get a Gunner with Shadowstrike. Deletes an entire pod.
Goumindong
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Re: [Feedback] Gunners, 1.2

Post by Goumindong »

trihero wrote:I'm not entirely convinced gunners are necessarily overpowered right now.

[...]

I kind of agree with joinrb's comment about gunners which is they are good at any stage of the game but not amazing either. Their cooldowns look good on paper, but they are pretty weak in between cooldowns, and if you're on a nontimed map then sharpshooters can easily compete or outdo gunners especially at better ranks.
The difference is that those classes(grenadiers excepted) do different things than gunners. Gunners are a control class that also kills things. Sharpshooters and assaults et all are kill classes.
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