DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

battch
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:09 pm

DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by battch »

I wanted to know other's opinions on this topic. I play with DFA snipers, acknowledging you can't always get high ground, so often the "main" benefit is unusable, but my position is the "long range aim penalty" that is reduces/removes. To me, that is always in affect, so it is more important than being able to target/shoot the same turn once/four (3?) turns. And I know holo-targeting helps your other soldiers kill that one alien, but how often do you need more than 1 extra soldier to hit if your sniper already has hit with his shot? Now, I haven't played much with Vital Point Targeting, where I can see that synergy, but what do you all think?

Thanks,
Steve
Sporadix
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Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:27 pm

Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Sporadix »

I am of the opinion that Rapid Targeting is vastly overrated and I never take it, and I take DFA every time. I think it's SO much better when you can get high ground - and once you get spider suits, you can get it a lot. When you can't get high ground, your soldier is *slightly* worse every 5 turns? Whatever.
Dlareh
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Dlareh »

Always rapid for me; helps the squad so much, and when there are no targets lets them still into line of sight and target.

I never really deviate from this, other than sometimes Serial at the end:

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Last edited by Dlareh on Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nmkaplan
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by nmkaplan »

I find holo-targeting snipers are pretty useful. I usually have one otherwise useless soldier (think 58 aim, 14 mob) that I designate as a holo-targeting officer.

Don't forget that rapid targeting also makes the normal holo-target action non-turn-ending. So a soldier with rapid targeting can holo-target 2 targets every single turn. When combined with the other holo target perks, it's actually pretty decent.

I agree that any sniper who is actually going to fire shots should probably just have DfA.
Elder_Basilisk
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:25 pm

Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Elder_Basilisk »

I took rapid targeting on my first sharpshooter and he's never been terrible due to steady hands from AWC and high native aim (now that he's a master sergeant major look forward to playing with his AWC chain shot and rupture abilities) but my dfa snipers have been more effective level for level and perk for perk.
aedn
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by aedn »

it depends on what type of snipers you prefer honestly. Both have strengths and weaknesses. DFA snipers are traditional one shot one kill snipers who want to stay stationary and in high ground.

RT snipers are much more squad based utility types, who buff the squad around them, while still doing some damage, but largly sacrifice damage for boosting the squad.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Saph7 »

I think DfA snipers are probably more powerful individually, but holotarget snipers do make nice force multipliers. Trouble is that they don't really take off until they get Multitargeting, while DfA snipers only need DfA, a good perch, and a stock.
battch
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:09 pm

Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by battch »

But again, to me, the bigger issue is the removal of the long-range penalty when shooting out of squad-sight range. I've seen that being as high -20, and regularly -10. THAT seems to me the bigger concern.
trihero
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by trihero »

The way I use snipers (rooftop campers on nontimed missions), DFA all the way. I made one holotarget officer and while it suffices, I'm just not very impressed (part of the issue is you can't use Focus Fire at squad sight, so it kind of detracts from the idea of holo + focus).

DFA snipers have generally a lot more aim and crit at long range every single turn whether or not you compare to a turn where rapid targeting is up (no penalty from squad sight + damned good ground + constant steady weapon as long as you kill one target per turn).

I don't think holotargeting makes a huge impact until you get a MKIII, and that literally took me until January this playthrough because I couldn't find any andromedon corpses. I'd rather just attack with the sniper than holo target. Of course, this isn't possible if you're playing with a mobile sniper playstyle, but I don't.

Holotargeting isn't bad, and you can easily fit it in a large squad, but it just doesn't feel as optimal unless you're regularly fighting gatekeepers or something like that which really benefits from the debuffs and lots of attacks from lots of people. I like the sniper picking out one target per turn reliably from long range, and holotargeting just doesn't do it.
Dlareh
Posts: 125
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Dlareh »

I usually finish campaigns before getting MK III holotargeters, so I disagree on them not having an impact sooner. They definitely have a very significant impact once you have vital point targeting, but even the first 2 perk levels are plenty relevant. Certainly at least as much as DFA's range benefit, and more so if you play skillfully since you can shoot yourself when you have the best shots and help the squad when you don't.

DFA other primary benefits do shine for camping, clearly, and if that's what all your going to do and only take snipers on untimed missions well then DFA is great.

Although I would be aware in that situation, not having DFA can be worked around easily by taking more time and waiting for cooldowns and reloads and getting stock up and being careful with your activations. I certainly don't "wish I had DFA" on ordinary sweep missions like HQ assaults, supply raids, and troop columns.

The mission types where DFA is probably clearly better are haven evacuations and invasions. But well those mission types aren't all that common in my experience, so I'm more than happy with Rapid Targeting being basically as good or better in most other situations, and allowing for skillfull decisions in determining when to shoot, when to target for the squad, and when to use the cooldown abilities.
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Goumindong
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Goumindong »

In timed, call evac missions, you will get to use DFA 4 to 6 times per fight because you will be able to setup while concealed, engage, and then throw your evac. So long as you're within 2 moves of the evac you're fine (3 with an officer).

In non-timed missions you have even more chance to setup. Additionally (especially if you have a good silencer) you will likely be able to take enfilade positioning.

Rapid targeting gets 1 or 2 activations/mission. And that is generous (plus it requires resource expenditure to get the better holotargeter. It's frankly OK if you're a dedicated scout and are lategame and have a mk3 targeter... But otherwise damage is almost always superior. A coil rifle DFA does 14-20 (or more) damage/round. A holotargeter with a mk3 ht will not make that kind of margin on their team per round. A rapid target will not make the margin on one target as the extra crit will make on the DFA. And the DFA does it 4 times as often as the RT.

JoINrbs says that he takes RT because it's more flexible. But frankly I am not sure it is. Not only does it disadvantage you in situations where you have a good position but are not fully controlled but it doesn't do enough in situations where you're suboptimal. I frequently see him making shots at units beyond the 5-10 squadsight penalty range saying "DFA would be really valuable here" sarcastically. Not realizing that it would be providing an equivalent ht buff on every shot he was making in the mission.
darkerevent
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by darkerevent »

I prefer to make my shooters take DFA and my spotters take all of the holo targeting perks, fully specializing each of the characters into their respective roles. I don't find hybridizing between rifle shooting and holo targeting all that useful for how I prefer to play.

All of my squad compositions for non-timed missions use between two and four DFA sharps, usually led by a holotarget officer, and together they form the cornerstone of my offensive strategy. I use my DFA sharps to score kills from elevation and then chain those kills into either Holotargeting, another enemy or using Steady Weapon for the next turn, depending on what will help the overall flow of the battle the most. Ideally, I protect them with a hard to dislodge frontline of OW ranger(s), gunner(s), solace+bastion PsiOp, and smoke-focused support grenadier.

If I don't expect to be able to make use of elevation at any point in the mission, I simply don't bring my sharpshooters. I load up on technicals and damage grenadiers instead.
Dlareh
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Dlareh »

Specialization makes sense when you're taking multiple sharpshooters on missions... but that's an unusual way to play.

I take one sharpshooter. Occasionally in a 6-man squad on untimed missions, but more often as part of a 7+ squad. And he shots lots, dealing plenty of damage of himself, easily comparable to taking a single DFA guy but with a lot more versatility.
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Goumindong
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Goumindong »

DFA is superior even if you only bring one sharpshooter. The rapid targeter is not close in damage, consistency, or utility.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Saph7 »

Goumindong wrote:JoINrbs says that he takes RT because it's more flexible. But frankly I am not sure it is.
It's 'flexible' in that it doesn't require high ground, yeah. Unfortunately adding +10 aim once every 5 turns is such a tiny benefit that the DfA sniper only needs to be on high ground about a third of the time to be better. And you can usually get high ground for your DfA snipers a lot more than a third of the time.
Thrombozyt
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:37 am

Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Thrombozyt »

Sniper starts with high aim: DFA

Sniper starts with low aim: Rapid Targeting and Officer Duty

Scout/Holotarget Officers are awesome at leading a 6-man strike force. With Phantom you can keep them safely in the middle of the pack lighting up two or three targets per turn or commanding others. Once Conceal is learned, you can even enter a fight with your pistol if needed and conceal later to resume scouting. You aim later is high enough to really profit from Lead by Example.

The biggest bonus of Rapid Targeting is that holotargeting doesn't end the turn.
Goldenmonkey
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Goldenmonkey »

To be honest, I think holotargeting shouldn't even be on the sniper. To me, it should be an officer perk or maybe a shinobi thing. To me, a sniper sits way back and well, snipes. The holotargeting, should be a support FOR the sniper, not by the sniper.

I realy enjoyed snipers in Vanilla and I refuse to play them differently in LW2. So all shooting perks it is. I don't care if other perks are more effective, I want to pewpewpew

E: I could imagina a sniper officer, but with a standard rifle. I haven't tried that yet though.
LordYanaek
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by LordYanaek »

I use both, as well as Snap Shot. They fill 3 very different roles.
  • DfA : Traditional Sniper ideally on higher ground. If you want a sniper that shoots every turn from a static position and hits often for lots of damage there is no comparison, DfA is simply better even when all it does is reduce the long range aim penalty because you don't have high ground.
    Good candidates : high Aim, low HP and low Mobility
  • Rapid Targeting : Officer duty helping the rest of the squad. This guy won't fire often but will help the rest of the squad hit more reliably and deal more damage. It takes some time to really shine but once you can multitarget an entire pod for 2 turns, your Rangers and aoe Gunners will love you and it will help the assault stun the biggest threat. Occasionally when RT isn't on cooldown you can take a shot (and later double shot) at a strong easy to hit enemy such as a MEC but your job isn't to kill stuff, it's to help the rest of the squad kill stuff and if need be, bring some punch. Since you stay with the squad, the long range penalty isn't really an issue. If you try to use a RT sniper as a long-range static sniper, something is wrong.
    Good candidates : low Aim, good Mobility (for scouting)
  • Snapshot : flanker who operates slightly away from the squad barely at squadsight range. Useful in small (5-6 men) mobile teams. Brings some punch and reliably kills stuff if he can get a flank. Suffers in static fights. Good on timed missions, especially timed evac. Suffers in the current meta from being good for missions lost in the "vacuum" between stealth runs and large raids but otherwise perfectly valid build.
    Good candidates : decent Aim, good Mobility, more than 3 HP as you can't be safe in the back.
Dwarfling
Posts: 524
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Dwarfling »

DFA and Rapid Targeting are for different specs of Sharpshooters. DFA is for the nest sniper you bring on non-timed missions (or 12-turns missions if you want to gamble on terrain) and Rapid Target is for Sharpshooters that came with low NCE aim, and you use them as a replacement for Shinobi scouts once they get Phantom. Whether you want a faster scout with less impact on infiltration and lesser detection radius or one that actively helps your squad is up to you tho, but sometimes you can't bring an extra soldier with the infiltration leftover time anyways.

A bonus is that even with low NCE aim they might still end up with aim higher than some of your crew so an officer with Lead by Example will be extra nice.

The issue however is that they take a while to take off and are crappy on most missions early on.
Goumindong
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by Goumindong »

Saph7 wrote:
Goumindong wrote:JoINrbs says that he takes RT because it's more flexible. But frankly I am not sure it is.
It's 'flexible' in that it doesn't require high ground, yeah. Unfortunately adding +10 aim once every 5 turns is such a tiny benefit that the DfA sniper only needs to be on high ground about a third of the time to be better. And you can usually get high ground for your DfA snipers a lot more than a third of the time.
They don't even need to get high ground since DFA negates squadsight penalties; they can simply make a shot at around squadsight+10.
stefan3iii
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by stefan3iii »

Rapid targeting is way overrated, and while DFA isn't some top tier perk I think it's easily better than RT.

The way the game is right now, you only bring sharpshooters to untimed missions and retaliations, in which there is great high ground to park them on 85% of the time. The extra actions you get from DFA can be used to reload, steady, shoot a pistol, or ... holotarget! I wouldn't be surprised if you could holotarget more often with DFA than with RT.

A good perk will either let you consistently kill things faster (ex, chain shot, serial, close encouters, DFA), or provides you with an "oh shit" button when you're in trouble (ex. sting grenades). RT does neither of those things, it's a small benefit free action you get to use once every 4 turns.

In theory you could take the perks to make holotargeting better, but in almost every tier the competing perks are better than the holotargeter upgrade.
nmkaplan
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by nmkaplan »

Why are people saying that Rapid Targeting only helps you once every 4-5 rounds? It helps every round because it makes holo a non-turn-ending action, even while the "free" holo action is on cooldown.

So you can ALWAYS holo/holo, or holo/command, or holo/smoke grenade, or holo/steady.
stefan3iii
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by stefan3iii »

nmkaplan wrote:Why are people saying that Rapid Targeting only helps you once every 4-5 rounds? It helps every round because it makes holo a non-turn-ending action, even while the "free" holo action is on cooldown.

So you can ALWAYS holo/holo, or holo/command, or holo/smoke grenade, or holo/steady.
Ah yeah you're right I did forget about that. But if you're doing that then your SS isn't shooting, so it would be more of a fallback plan when your SS has nothing better to do.
nightwyrm
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by nightwyrm »

I'm think a RT Sharp is used more like an off-scout that can still help the squad while concealed rather than an actual sniper.
stefan3iii
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Re: DFA vs. Rapid Targeting

Post by stefan3iii »

nightwyrm wrote:I'm think a RT Sharp is used more like an off-scout that can still help the squad while concealed rather than an actual sniper.
I have a hard time seeing room in any combat team for that. The more firepower you bring, the faster enemies die, the less likely you're going to get shot, or have added patrols. Killing as quickly and efficiently as possible provides safety. How often does a holotarget scout provide more damage (via +aim/crit/vpt), compared to say another gunner or assault?
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