Alternatives to a walking battle scanner for vision

[Icreatedthisforyou]

I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of mid-sized missions. Complaining about the movement of conceal in the shinobi tree. People fall on one side of the fence or the other, but ultimately these two issues are related, or rather Shinobis are the problem. Conceal is so strong because it allows you to continue to get vision, if something goes wrong (flanked shinobi) or allowing your shinobi to contribute reliable damage (shadow strike) once in a mission. Moving it doesn't change either of those things, I do think it is strong enough to be MSGT and will give reaper a run for its money as it is essentially the only choice at MSGT right now.


Currently you have one option to get vision, bring a shinobi...and don't use them, or use them once.


This is the core of the problem for the lack of 5-6 man missions. Ready I am going to read minds:

• You see a mission pop up with 5-6 days left on the timer it is the baseline strength is somewhere between light and moderate. You already know you can't bring a large squad, simply not enough time. If it is light you could bring a stealth squad, over infiltrate like crazy and it should be extremely light. Maybe you can try a medium sized squad though, because that would be fun, a few guys infiltrate maybe boost it kill some advent. "I'll check it out"
• You build a squad with a shinobi you look at your squad and you go "if there is a pod of 4 or more this squad is going to struggle...there could possibly a squad of 8, nope not possible I can't bring the damage or the control."
• But you want to do the mission so you remove the soldier not bringing damage or control and you look at your squad, your shinobi, and you go "I can't safely move anywhere because I have no vision, which means I have a good chance of getting these soldiers in serious trouble and if that happens I risk my entire campaign."
• Then you remove all your soldiers except a shinobi and one other and consider if you can stealth it, and if you can't then you convince yourself you don't need the mission or don't want to do the mission because you CAN'T do the mission.

Raise your hand if you have done that! Oh look EVERYONE has done that.

It isn't that people don't want to do mid sized missions, it is that they feel they CAN'T do these missions and that is a serious SERIOUS problem. In some way there needs to be an alternative to getting vision besides a walking battle scanner.


Currently things like scanning protocol work, but they are really close range, their biggest use is making sure you don't stumble into a civilian when hopping off a roof AND they don't provide you vision of the landscape, which is as important as knowing what advent are in the area.


Suggestion to fix this: bring back battlescanners in the EU/EW/LW1 form If you are concerned about the power they bring, then have it be a baseline officer perk that starts with one charge the higher rank the officer the more charges you get. It is not like shinobi's will never be used. They don't even need to reveal faceless or burrowed chryssis, just provide vision of an area.

• Shinobis are still going to be the king of stealth missions due to phantom.
• Shinobis are still going to be invaluable on larger squad missions where you have 7-9 other soldiers and feel you can go toe to toe with any pod or even two pods, but you really want vision through the entire mission.
• Mid sized missions where you just need a little bit of vision, battle scanners can cover that.

This opens up options for mid sized missions AND indirectly nerfs stealth shinobis because suddenly there are missions you don't feel they are mandatory on.

tl;dr: Give us a legitimate alternative to stealth shinobis for vision, it will make medium sized missions doable, it will make stealth focused shinobis feel less mandatory on EVERY mission. A possible solution is to give officers old school vision granting battle scanners as one of their base perks (don't need even need to reveal hidden enemies), this would limit the number you have on a mission AND stealth shinobis will still be highly desirable for stealth missions and large squad missions.

[LordYanaek]

Conceal is so strong because it allows you to continue to get vision, if something goes wrong (flanked shinobi) or allowing your shinobi to contribute reliable damage (shadow strike) once in a mission. Moving it doesn't change either of those things, I do think it is strong enough to be MSGT and will give reaper a run for its money as it is essentially the only choice at MSGT right now.

Reaper isn't the only choice. A rifle and pistol shinobi can do really nice things with Serial but given their low aim progression, those shinobis definitely need to get a flanking position and conceal allows them to do this twice per battle.
Being able to land 2 highly reliable shots per battle is nice ... at the cost of 2 perks. The gunner can do it every 5 turns for a single perk as soon as Cpl. Yeah, sure sounds like a MSgt perk to me!
Conceal is nice but not broken outside of duo-shinobi pure stealth missions, moving it all the way to MSgt will hurt everyone and that unusual but fun Rifle and pistol shinobi i'm talking about will probably just disappear completely. We don't need chainsaw surgery on that useful but not overpowered ability. If anything has to be done it's preventing abuses and it can be done.

I totally agree with the rest of your post I'd love to see the old battle scanners back but we really still need some way to reveal faceless/lids.

[Zyrrashijn]

I've only little experience, but what's wrong with Battlescanners as they are?

[seananigans]

I've only little experience, but what's wrong with Battlescanners as they are?

Nothing at all, but there's definitely a niche that was filled in the later iterations of LW1 with the advent(lol) of the Motion Tracker. I do find myself missing this lovely item at times in LW2.

[LordYanaek]

I've only little experience, but what's wrong with Battlescanners as they are?

Their area of effect and range are both small compared to the LW1 battle scanners (as far as i remember them correctly ). Also i don't think they give squadsight vision to sharpshooters unlike their LW1 self.
Scanning Protocol has much better range but is centered on the specialist and doesn't reveal the terrain like battle scanners do.

Overall an improvement of those two could effectively make Shinobi less mandatory for scouting. It still doesn't solve the "issue" of conceal thought.

[Icreatedthisforyou]

I've only little experience, but what's wrong with Battlescanners as they are?

The biggest issue is they might as well not exist in the game currently due to how hard they are gated and the nerfs the have seen with x2.

To get them in LW2 you need a proving ground (May or June the earliest you are building that but quite often later). Then you have all the other higher priority proving grounds projects, which pushes back battle scanners further. Then you get to invest resources into the project and building the scanners, which are limited use. So you finally build a battle scanner late in the year, you look at your soldier and go..."Why am I taking this? I have half a barracks worth of shinobi's, this is going to reduce the soldiers mobility by 1 (which isn't returned in LW2 when it is used), and I could have taken any number of more worthwhile items...I'll just take stealth shinobi #5 on this one."


They exist, but you only get them MAYBE by mid game, and they are often so weak it isn't worth justifying them then, plus you have a lot of higher ranked shinobis at this point you might as well use them. As a result they are not really an alternative, for all intensive purposes effectively don't exist in LW2.

[JulianSkies]

I've only little experience, but what's wrong with Battlescanners as they are?

The biggest issue is they might as well not exist in the game currently due to how hard they are gated and the nerfs the have seen with x2.

To get them in LW2 you need a proving ground (May or June the earliest you are building that but quite often later). Then you have all the other higher priority proving grounds projects, which pushes back battle scanners further. Then you get to invest resources into the project and building the scanners, which are limited use. So you finally build a battle scanner late in the year, you look at your soldier and go..."Why am I taking this? I have half a barracks worth of shinobi's, this is going to reduce the soldiers mobility by 1 (which isn't returned in LW2 when it is used), and I could have taken any number of more worthwhile items...I'll just take stealth shinobi #5 on this one."


They exist, but you only get them MAYBE by mid game, and they are often so weak it isn't worth justifying them then, plus you have a lot of higher ranked shinobis at this point you might as well use them. As a result they are not really an alternative, for all intensive purposes effectively don't exist in LW2.

Amusingly,I loved loading then on my shinobi, particularly because they can grant you vision of areas you want to go to but are very likely to get you revealed, like corners as rooftops. They tend to have immense mobility anyways and there is really nothing else to put on then anyway

[Icreatedthisforyou]

Amusingly,I loved loading then on my shinobi, particularly because they can grant you vision of areas you want to go to but are very likely to get you revealed, like corners as rooftops. They tend to have immense mobility anyways and there is really nothing else to put on then anyway

Yeah that is usually why I do get them eventually.

Do I want to risk a drone on that roof I need to climb or a civ on the ground I need to hop down on? Nope.

Effectively I find their best use is to avoid issues with concealment that really shouldn't be an issue with concealment, like checking to see if a civ us hiding at the bottom of a building because my soldiers never learned to look down.

[Jadiel]

The biggest issue is they might as well not exist in the game currently due to how hard they are gated and the nerfs the have seen with x2.

To get them in LW2 you need a proving ground (May or June the earliest you are building that but quite often later). Then you have all the other higher priority proving grounds projects, which pushes back battle scanners further. Then you get to invest resources into the project and building the scanners, which are limited use. So you finally build a battle scanner late in the year, you look at your soldier and go..."Why am I taking this? I have half a barracks worth of shinobi's, this is going to reduce the soldiers mobility by 1 (which isn't returned in LW2 when it is used), and I could have taken any number of more worthwhile items...I'll just take stealth shinobi #5 on this one."


They exist, but you only get them MAYBE by mid game, and they are often so weak it isn't worth justifying them then, plus you have a lot of higher ranked shinobis at this point you might as well use them. As a result they are not really an alternative, for all intensive purposes effectively don't exist in LW2.

That's not my experience at all. In my opinion, they are the biggest reason to build Proving Grounds in the first place, and they're usually the first project I research. They require research which is easy and quick to do (and which unlocks MkII Gremlins which you probably want anyway), the Proving Ground project for them is cheap, and the cost of the Battlescanners themselves is also really cheap. And they're really really good, which was your point, no? Isn't the whole point of this post that having Battlescanners is as good as a Shinobi?

[Icreatedthisforyou]

And they're really really good, which was your point, no? Isn't the whole point of this post that having Battlescanners is as good as a Shinobi?

Nope, not at all actually. The whole point of this post is that they should be as ACCESSIBLE as shinobis to provide an alternative through the entire game.

Shinobis always will be better so long as they can move. But battle scanners let you get some vision when you need/want it and don't require you to bring a shinobi. I don't think there should be any class you feel compelled to take on EVERY mission, but that is currenlty where shinobis are to them being the best/only source of vision through sizable chunk of the game. That is a problem.

[LordYanaek]

As much as i'd like to have the old battle scanners back with their large vision, long range and squadsight effect for several turns, i must also admit that the current ones aren't as bad as you make it look. They are not available from the start of the campaign but they come early if you want them early (drone autopsy is never instant so you don't even "loose" research days if you do it early).

[Icreatedthisforyou]

As much as i'd like to have the old battle scanners back with their large vision, long range and squadsight effect for several turns, i must also admit that the current ones aren't as bad as you make it look. They are not available from the start of the campaign but they come early if you want them early (drone autopsy is never instant so you don't even "loose" research days if you do it early).

They are all gated behind proving grounds which at best is your 2nd building, but realistically later than that. So mid game at best.


Even ignoring that, how often do you do a mission without a shinobi? Maybe 1 in 10, probably more like 1 in 20? That is the problem. When you build a squad you actively are looking for vision. Battle scanners in their current form are not even a consideration compared to a shinobi.

Every other class you have other options. Every one can hack, not as well as specialists but they can do it. Multiple classes can suppress, not as well as a gunner but they can do it. Multiple classes can destroy cover, technicals, grenadier, and gunner, all classes have a kinda bad option in grenades, and a decent option mid game in Shredder cannons. You want to deal damage from range? Here are for classes. You want to deal damage from up close? Here are 4 classes. You want to provide vision...NO VISION IS FINE EVERYTHING IS FINE IGNORE THE SHINOBI OVER MY SHOULDER IT IS FINE, THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE.


There is only one aspect of lw2 that a single class effectively has a monopoly on. And that is vision with shinobis. And no battle scanners coming in the mid game don't make up for that in particular when you already have a barracks full of shinobis from the early game.

That is the problem, they don't need to be as good as LW1 battle scanners, but they could exist enough that you were not compelled to take a shinobi every mission, and you didn't wish you had a shinobi every mission you don't take one.

[Jacke]

Most of the silliness in LW2 concealment is removed by the mod Peak From Concealment.

But I agree, Battlescanners should be available sooner. And maybe they shouldn't have a weight penalty. And I've not played LW1 but I think its Motion Detector would be cool to have.