I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

To start with: You can disable classes by going to XComClassData.ini and setting NumInForcedDeck=0 and NumInDeck=0 for each class (these be 1 and 4 respectively). The first one determines the number that you are guaranteed to get. The second determines whether or not they're in the random pool once the "forced" deck is run through. (This will also turn off the ability to train those classes0

The reason i was looking to do this was because of various play with regards to the center tree of shinobi which is actually very strong. While individually the skills are weak, in combination(especially with a high defense soldier) they're quite powerful. They synergize very well with AWC perks, and because the class has so many of the perks they're likely to get the better perks. The long and short of it is that the combination of lone wolf, evasive, and tactical sense (or hunkering down) can make your soldier almost invulnerable. Indeed at one point i hunkered a soldier in low cover against 10 uncontrolled enemies and they couldnt even graze me.. From two tiles away.

The strategy was simple, a core of defensive shinobi would anchor a number of clean up sword shinobi. It worked out kind of well, but not that well. Before you get hunter's instinct you're super weak, and after you're still at the mercy of being able to generate flanks. Which are not always possible. Additionally you uhhh... can't set up overwatch ambushes.

Its worth noting that this campaign was failed multiple times. Doing troop columns and supply raids is too difficult. You simply do not have the core abilities fast enough. Lone wolf does not scale with itself very well, making positioning much more difficult than it might seem otherwise. The inability to set up big reveals (early) and the fact that evasive and shadowstrike are on the same tier makes things difficult.

If I were to play things again I probably could win simply by rushing the network tower but not even attempting the HQ until super lategame, just doing troop columns when I had a good timer and then doing the forge early so that I could easily force down the advent timer with my never ending supply of nearly impossible to fail stealth missions. Then I could rush an HQ in a low strength region later when my soldiers were nearly invulnerable.

The sword shinobi were weak. They couldn't kill much more than the gun shinobi, being weak to robots and melee (and mutons) with the sole exception of sectoids. Even once they gain the core defensive buffs they have problems stacking enough dodge to guarantee grazes, given that they're unlikely to have the defense to make up for it. They don't actually do enough damage to justify their risk being inferior in consistency and damage compared to assaults. Their weapons are expensive to upgrade (hard to get enough corpses and you have to do a on autopsy) and on non-flèche slashes do worse damage than a rifle because a rifle will get exposed crit bonuses.

Overall I could actually see using a shinobi or two as a "primary damage" class. They have decent aim (26 over the levels if you proc lone wolf) and most importantly they can survive on their own while dealing damage. Once you get hunters instinct their damage is good and consistent (if weak against melee/robots) and most importantly fun. Then they end up with serial and so can make flanking BS "kill everything" plays.

When thinking about how I was leveling up the units I felt like was that the two trees were trying to complement each other and instead got in the way. If you put the defensive skills that the melee unit needed to have decent survivability then then you could probably make a unit in cover invulnerable. And that would make the stealth and gun versions even more bonkers.

So why is this a thread about Rangera? Basically the gun shinobi is almost everything a ranger ought to be. Complete with a stunning capstone in serial. And this playthrough kind of exemplified why it was the case that the ranger was underwhelming.

So why doesn't the ranger shine? Well mainly because there are two types of enemies to kill. Big defense low(ish) HP enemies and big HP/low defense enemies. Most "kill" units can take down big HP enemies and when that fails the rest of the team can easily finish it off or provide control. Most can also take down big defense enemies(so long as they're not in high cover and have defensive bonuses) fairly reliably too while non-kill classes have an issue with this. Rangers only deal with the exposed enemies well. Against covered enemies they have neither the height advantage that sharpshooters can attain nor the flanking ability of assaults nor the guaranteed damage of other classes.

Structurally they're like the shinobi. They've got competing ideas that prevent the class from getting the abilities each one would want. The overwatch build would want all the crit, but can't get it without being too strong. The tank build wants all the defense and dodge but can't get it because of light em up + hunker. The crit build would like aim and base damage and... But again it breaks the others.

So thinking about what you can give Rangers that doesn't infringe on the other kill focused classes I think that the answer is take the middle range flank and tank away from the shinobi. Assaults get close range, high risk flanks (and stun guns). Sharpshooters get long range damage that you have to set up. Rangers get middle range positioning plays. Shinobi lose hunters instinct and get a group of skills that focus on the type of tanking that sword shinobi need to do.

For the shinobi low profile becomes combat fitness, lone wolf becomes Resiliance, hunters instinct becomes formidable, tactical sense becomes untouchable. Serial becomes kubikuri*. Rapid fire becomes combatives. Now they can dodge/graze tank but they can't double stack defense/dodge to make them neigh invulnerable. They keep their scaling dodge per level.

Rangers get a massive tree revamp. They keep their overwatch secondary but instead of a focus on crit they focus on base damage and mobility.

Squadie: Free Ammo Slot, Lone Wolf
LCPL: Sprinter, Low Profile, Ever Vigilant
CPL: Hunters Instinct, Aggression, Cool Under Pressure
SGT: Deadeye, Shadowstep, Covering Fire
SSGT: Center Mass, Fortify, Grazing Fire
TSGT: Chain Shot, Will to Survive, Rapid Reaction
GSGT: Combat Fitness, Tactical Sense, Close Encounters
MSGT: Serial, Lethal, Killzone

The ranger now has three trees which focus on three fundamental things:
  • 1) Getting to good cover

    2) making that cover valuable when you get there

    3) doing things valuable at that cover
More importantly the order of skills emphasize how the value scales and provides unique opportunities to mix and match. Covering Fire comes after Ever Vigilant, letting you more easily "cover" flanked enemies. Cool Under Pressure is on the same tier of Hunters Instinct so overwatch focused characters can focus on consistent damage (bonus to-hit) and more spike damage (can crit) or for better base damage. Similar trade offs occur with center mass and grazing fire.

Because Hunters Instinct only triggers on units that can take cover even with chain shot (on a longish CD) the ranger won't be killing exposed units super well. But they will still have a bit more than normal punch when doing so.

*look at that gorram shadow strike synergy! Exposed + strike = 90% crit. Talon rounds to 100%!

**this costs two actions right? Ideally only one.
RXTXK
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:55 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by RXTXK »

For me there are two jobs the rangers do.

Volume fire via light em up and rapid fire, to shoot three times per turn. This makes them good at the big hp low defense bad guys.
Walkfire to kill off high defense enemies that are left with a couple of HP after being hit by someone else.

Not a big fan of your revised tree where the ranger can do neither of these.
Icreatedthisforyou
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Icreatedthisforyou »

Not really a fan of that tree. I also think you are viewing it from a slightly skewed perspective. Flanking and mobility styles of play are fun but they are not everyone's cup of tea, and rangers full an important role in the fire fight slog style of play. The already are assaults, shinobis, and a ranger tree that can flank effectively. It doesn't take much from the AWC to turn a Grenadier into a flanker either. Your changes don't really change that you now have the same number of flakes but you just killed any game play involving fire fights. You have gunners you have snipers but you have no volume of fire. So it isn't that I dislike the tree you made, I dislike it for Rangers and I think rangers are pretty bad.

Give an all ranger run a try. The biggest issue you will find us that RNG involving them is crazy. They are the class that is helped and hurt the most by graze mechanics. They lack tools in general to do things. The end result is they seem one dimensional. I would like to see the middle of the ranger tree tweaked so it doesn't bail on the short range option midway through and instead promoting more mobile play. Adding things like hit and run and sprinter.


As far as shinobis go, sword is definitely strong early, which is important because it helps cut through the rng shooting has, and they fall of later, I do think they are punished too hard by a lot of mechanics specific to certain enemies.

I am curious what difficulty your run was on and what guns you equipped your shooty shinobis with. SMGs would be the obvious ones for mobility, but ammo and damage takes a pretty big hit. Shotguns and and rifles bring ammo and damage but the mobility hit could be annoying.


Thoughts on the Shinobi tree in general? Any perks you found in all your builds? Any perks you found were just bad?
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

I don't think rangers need an overhaul. They are one of the best classes to shoot straight through high cover because they fire twice a turn and have locked on (and can take advantage of hyperreactive pupils PCS as well).

I have no idea how Shinobis being unable to flank with hunter's instinct leads to Rangers needing it as well, even though I read your post twice.
mmCion
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:24 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by mmCion »

Interesting experiment, all shinobi run.

While I like your assessment of shinobis, I do not fully agree with your proposed Ranger revamp.

I've found Rangers very useful in my campaigns. I personally have 2 paths for Rangers: executioners or overwatch gods. As an executioner, a good scope, locked on, walk fire makes sure enemies that are almost dead do not have a chance to live another turn. Overwatch route can be very good, I use on high def. Rangers. These guys deal enormous amounts of damage, shooting once and overwatching up to 3 times (so 4 fires per turn). Sometimes I would just run one of these guys right to the middle of an advent pod, and it felt like CCS.

I've tried the sawed off shotgun route a few times. I feel like it starts good but ends weak. It would be interesting to add more mobility to the middle tree.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

Icreatedthisforyou wrote:
I am curious what difficulty your run was on and what guns you equipped your shooty shinobis with. SMGs would be the obvious ones for mobility, but ammo and damage takes a pretty big hit. Shotguns and and rifles bring ammo and damage but the mobility hit could be annoying.


Thoughts on the Shinobi tree in general? Any perks you found in all your builds? Any perks you found were just bad?
Legendary, rifles (usually), smg(very low mobility or pistol), shotgun (one or two on pointman)

I found evasive in almost all my builds, thought all the sword damage perks were bad in general but took them anyway. Not dying was more important than doing damage and evasive is big in that even when exposed. I didn't take infighter which I think was ideal early, not sure about late, once you have hard target, but the range seems too low on it. Tac sense on everyone always.

That is for combat shinobi. Stealth was straight down left side with exception that they still got evasive
Last edited by Goumindong on Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

Icreatedthisforyou wrote:
Give an all ranger run a try. The biggest issue you will find us that RNG involving them is crazy.
Well kind of. An all ranger run would have problems with stealth and timed combat missions. But otherwise would perform better than your expect. The reason for this is something that doesn't work well in normal play and is precisely the same reason that gun shinobi are so strong(minus the fact that gun shinobi do it effortlessly).

An all ranger squad can shoot and then hunker down. In high cover that is 85 defense and 50 dodge. A ranger in a normal squad cannot do this for two reasons.

1) they cannot move, shoot, and hunker and so cannot easily take advanced positioning while being safe. Additionally they do not have evasive or hard target and so will still take chip damage

2) if they can't take advanced positioning then enemies will be able to see them and will shoot at other targets.

Shinobi can move anywhere and then do anything once they get there, secure in the knowledge that shooting at them is like shooting at a high cover target while flashbanged and also having the graze band simply be turned into a miss. They can move to positions with what you might consider exposure to a lot of enemies, but because those enemies don't have much of a choice of who to shoot at they're OK.

So an all ranger squad trades shots pretty darn well. Grab a few with shotguns to clean up those that want to get close to you and then you can legit volume of fire advent down... But without being all Rangers... The rest of your squad gets shot and you get overwhelmed.
As far as shinobis go, sword is definitely strong early, which is important because it helps cut through the rng shooting has, and they fall of later, I do think they are punished too hard by a lot of mechanics specific to certain enemies.
my sword shinobi did not end up that much better at swords than my gun shinobi, with the exception that they could not do a traditional flank as easily and that they could not shoot. I did, every once and a while(and especially early), use the sword on a gun shinobi simply because it was ideal(moves you to a flank position while attacking at good range). But it wasn't something that the sword shinobi were so much better at that they needed to be spec'd as such.

Early cutthroat is worthless, the first two enemies you see with armor are mutons and robots. IE "doesn't work" and "oh god don't sword them"* and these are consistently the most armored units in the game. Until shieldbearers there are basically no armored organics to cut. The next one you will see is gatekeepers.

Blademaster is OK but hunters instinct is much much better in terms of consistency and safety. I never have to worry about whether or not I will die horribly if I move to cover and shoot on the flank. But with a sword...

* I actually really like this mechanic because it makes mutons feel more unique... But that is only if you're playing with a sword shinobi; which no one does because sword shinobi don't kill any particular unit type better than any other. If there was an enemy where you were like "oh yes bring a sword shinobi to kill them" then things might be different.
Last edited by Goumindong on Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

I've found Rangers very useful in my campaigns. I personally have 2 paths for Rangers: executioners or overwatch gods. As an executioner, a good scope, locked on, walk fire makes sure enemies that are almost dead do not have a chance to live another turn. Overwatch route can be very good, I use on high def. Rangers. These guys deal enormous amounts of damage, shooting once and overwatching up to 3 times (so 4 fires per turn). Sometimes I would just run one of these guys right to the middle of an advent pod, and it felt like CCS.
This guy makes excellent points, I do not think the ranger needs a severe overhaul.

You are vastly underestimating the ranger's ability to fire twice right off the bat. You need to look very closely at what a substantial damage output this is versus even something like hunter's instincts. A gun shinobi can't do anything like that until rapid fire, they have less aim than rangers, and rangers can also learn rapid fire as well.

You might learn about rangers better by actually using them instead of shinobis. Just stating the obvious, nothing personal. I'm glad you like gun shinobis and I agree shinobis have excellent often overlooked defensive abilities and tantalizing gun abilities, but the connection between that and a ranger overhaul makes zero sense.
bearmans
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:49 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by bearmans »

I've heard a lot of smack talked about rangers, and I honestly do not understand the problems people have. This could very easily be because I play on Vet, so grain of salt, but Rangers have formed the core of my squads on every single one of my campaigns. Do other people use Walk Fire? Is Walk Fire just bad on comm and legendary? Because I find walk fire to be probably the most useful LCpl perk in the game. 60-80% shots through full cover, even for half damage, are incredibly useful, plus you can open by taking a regular shot. It also synergizes extremely well with holotarget sharpshooters (especially with VPT).

I do like the idea of adding more mobility to the middle tree, though, since there are definitely some weak choices at a few tiers and it'd be nice for pump action to be more than just a just-sometimes-when-the-opportunity-arises thing. Maybe replace one of the weaker perks with "reduces the weight penalty of wielding a rifle by 1" or something.
Antifringe
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Antifringe »

Two things that might help Rangers that I've seen suggested

1) Some sort of mobility option that keeps them from getting left behind and not being able to leverage Light Em Up. A higher mobility score doesn't really help here, it's more of a tempo issue than a raw movement issue. My preferred solution would be to alter LeU so that the first shot is a free action, but you still only get to fire two shots in total per turn. So you could fire, fire and move, or fire, move fire. This lets you maintain volume of fire without stepping on the toes of Assaults and Shinobis.

2) Bring back the old Sharpshooter perk from LW1. It gave you a conditional +10 Aim when shooting into high cover, and a universal +10 crit. Rangers really need extra crit sources, since crits are a big part of your damage and Rangers don't have a mechanism for getting reliable flanks. The conditional Aim bonus acknowledges that Rangers are frontline sluggers that who often have to take suboptimal shots.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

trihero wrote:
This guy makes excellent points, I do not think the ranger needs a severe overhaul.

You are vastly underestimating the ranger's ability to fire twice right off the bat. You need to look very closely at what a substantial damage output this is versus even something like hunter's instincts. A gun shinobi can't do anything like that until rapid fire, they have less aim than rangers, and rangers can also learn rapid fire as well.

You might learn about rangers better by actually using them instead of shinobis. Just stating the obvious, nothing personal. I'm glad you like gun shinobis and I agree shinobis have excellent often overlooked defensive abilities and tantalizing gun abilities, but the connection between that and a ranger overhaul makes zero sense.
Against a unit in low cover with 70 base aim. To simplify we will say crit is +2 damage(+3 on mag) and otherwise you always do the average.

With a rifle.

1 Shot after move: E(damage) = 3.36 damage Var(Damage): 5.92
2 shots into low cover: E(damage): 3.2 Var(Damage): 7.68
1 Shot after move with hunter's instinct: E(damage)= 5.36 Var(damage): 5.92

With a Mag rifle

1 Shot after move: E(damage) = 5.79 damage Var(Damage): 17.22
2 shots into low cover: E(damage): 5.6 Var(Damage): 23.52
1 Shot after move with hunter's instinct: E(damage)= 7.79 Var(damage): 17.22

So its basically better in every metric. In order for Hunter's Instinct on a flank to do worse than 2 shots into low cover with mag weapons you need 96% base aim. In full cover you need 110% base aim. A Ranger with 70 base aim will have 105 after an elite scope and achieving MSGT.

Hunter's instinct stacks on pistols. So no, i am not underestimating the value of hunter's instinct. It will consistently do more damage with less variance than shooting twice.

Lone wolf actually makes the Shinobi have higher average aim than a ranger consistently even until MSGT(+26 vs +20). Its a very significant advantage early before the Ranger gains levels and starts to cut into it a bit where its still +6.

Keep in mind that this would actually enhance the rangers's overwatch ability. They would be able to generate flank overwatches more easily with ever vigilant earlier. They would be able to generate guaranteed even faster with covering fire coming after ever vigilant. Rapid reaction comes earlier as does CuP. Close encounters lets them move, shoot(sometimes) and then still overwatch.
Thrair
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:37 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Thrair »

I feel Rangers are *mostly* fine. They Overwatch very well with Grazing/RR, and Walk Fire is a nifty utility tool.

My only complaints with them are mostly tied into perk balance at a couple ranks:
Executioner just doesn't compare to Grazing Fire for ANY build, while Close and Personal is damn near useless on Rangers, and certainly doesn't compete with with Walk Fire (or even Covering Fire, if you can compensate for the aim penalty).

My only changes to Rangers at this point would be:
1: Replace Executioner with Precision Shot. Provide a cooldown ability for Crit builds, that can compete with Grazing Fire (which is extremely powerful, right now, especially with high defense enemies).
2: Move Executioner into Close and Personal's position. Executioner and Covering Fire were on the same rack for Infantry in Long War 1, and I think it worked fairly well. Close and Personal just doesn't mesh with the immobile playstyle of Rangers (the closest they get to mobility is Ever Vigilant into a group of enemies).
3: Improve their base Aim Progression to 25, which is midway between Sharpshooter (28) and Gunner (20). Their job is purely to shoot things. They should be pretty damn good at it.


Think that's a set of small buffs to a class that's mostly in a good spot. Overwatch builds are very powerful. And crit builds just need a small nudge.
Sporadix
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:27 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Sporadix »

I think a big part of the reason that rangers aren't very good (at least crit rangers) is that Bring 'Em On (and Talon Rounds) doesn't actually proc super often because of the graze band, plus enemies get INFINITY BILLION dodge as the game progresses.

Crit rangers are largely the same as they were in LW1, but in LW1 the dodge mechanic didn't exist to turn off a sizeable component of their damage. They also had the Sharpshooter perk (strictly better Deadshot) that allowed them to be one of the few classes that was very good at just shooting enemies in cover with a bunch of bullets.

In LW2, enemies in indestructible heavy cover with a ton of +def and +dodge pretty much have to be dealt with through guaranteed damage abilities, or snipers with Depth Perception.

Once Xwynns gets all that stupid nonsense nerfed, it *should* have the secondary effect of making rangers significantly better.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

So its basically better in every metric.
You missed the obvious one, firing twice at a flanked target with ranger vs a hunter's instinct, no wonder you are getting biased results. I wouldn't try to compare 2 shots into low cover vs a flanking hunter's instinct shot, not realistic. As you said before in the original post, it's hard to get flanks in your all shinobi run.

You also missed firing twice into low cover vs hunter's instinct into low cover, which also happens a lot. Hunter's instinct loses again. You cannot compare the strength of one versus the weakness of another, that is not fair. The picture is not as neat as you make it out to be since you discard the cases where hunter's instinct doesn't look good, of course it is "better in all metrics" if you decide to throw out the metrics where it looks bad. :lol:

I still don't follow the overall argument of because shinobi's have hunter's instinct, therefore rangers need a severe overhaul. I know you really think rangers are at the bottom of the pool, and I respect your right to have that opinion, but I still don't see it.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

bearmans wrote:I've heard a lot of smack talked about rangers, and I honestly do not understand the problems people have. This could very easily be because I play on Vet, so grain of salt, but Rangers have formed the core of my squads on every single one of my campaigns. Do other people use Walk Fire?
So on lower difficulties rangers don't suffer a lot of the disadvantages that they suffer on higher difficulties. DEs don't stack up as fast, fewer enemy numbers make it more reasonable to shoot at them and don't force strategies to deal with larger enemy numbers.

On higher difficulties you're going to get into situations where you need to kill a whole bunch of enemies very quickly. Anything that can burst down >1 enemies in a turn is very valuable. Close Combat Specialist, Close Encounters, Serial, street sweeper, trench gun, rockets etc become very valuable.

Nominally Rangers look like they should be good at this, because they get to shoot a lot, but because they cannot exploit high ground (not even for DFA just for the aim bonus) efficiently due to having to move along with the combat (whereas the sharp can simply sit in the same high ground) and because they have no advantage when flanking (ala assaults who get bonus damage, abilities and range) the ranger ends up being not much better than any other class.

As shown above shooting twice isn't that much better than flanking once, and over the course of full levels Rangers only gain 4 aim over specialists et al (ok 8 since you take combat fitness) so the ability of Rangers to be very strong depends primarily on the ability of other classes to clear cover for them.

To compare then, the ability to clear cover is worth 30 to 45 aim plus 40% crit. It's a massive increase in power and while Rangers can exploit this well so can anyone.

A small number of big enemies can be consistently controlled while the dregs are wiped up if you can wipe up he dregs fast. But a big number of dregs cannot be consistently controlled while you kill maybe one enemy per turn. You burn through resources too fast, and dregs generally do close to the same damage as the elites.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

trihero wrote:
So its basically better in every metric.
You missed the obvious one, firing twice at a flanked target with ranger vs a hunter's instinct, no wonder you are getting biased results.
Well yea, ttc is a powerful ability.

As for the rest... It wasn't ways possible to flank but it wasn't that hard. Main problem wasn't generating flanks with the units on the edges it was the fact that I had 6 guys. Unless you're considering running 6 Rangers I am not sure what the issue is.

If you flank only 50% of the time you're able to shoot you're still better off until very high aim again.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

Nominally Rangers look like they should be good at this, beca
It's not just nominal, just watch xwynns plays (legendary ironman). His rangers are carrying the dps in almost every fight due to sheer volume of firepower (attack + rapid fire). When there are flanked targets, his rangers are taking full advantage of it. When there are unflankable targets (mechs), he is also wrecking those with volume of fire. I don't see any other class really doing that tbh.

You listed a bunch of abilities which are tied to the assault, but those carry significant risks if you get close enough to take advantage of their abilities.

No other class is really coming anywhere close to the ranger's consistent damage output every turn. Rocket damage severely falls off compared to everything else as the game goes on (the min damage is something silly like 4 or 5 even on the most advanced gauntlet models), grenadiers have limited grenades, sharps are ok but generally very immobile and fairly terrible without high ground, specialists haha, assaults have risks, shinobis not really anywhere close, gunner doesn't have traverse fire until late and gives up sat fire to do so (hail of bullets is great but what are you doing for the 5 turns in between the next one? and even hail of bullets loses its ability to one shot things in the later game making it lose its luster)
they have no advantage when flanking
Firing twice at a flanked target is doubly as good as firing once. They get the +40% crit like anyone else, but they essentially get it twice if not three times. They have the "ultimate" hunter's instinct - double all damage you do to flanked targets is essentially what they have baseline. You have made a lot of good points and strategies I agree with in different threads, but for some reason I feel like you have this massive blind eye when it comes to rangers.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

Shinobi also get rapid fire if that is what you're referring to (otherwise no, Rangers cannot move and fire twice). They also get serial if they want
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

Goumindong wrote:Shinobi also get rapid fire if that is what you're referring to (otherwise no, Rangers cannot move and fire twice). They also get serial if they want
- if they both have rapid fire, rangers can still attack one more time than shinobis, not always, but the volume of fire potential is very practically and often there
- shinobis have less aim in general than rangers
- rapid fire has an aim penalty whereas light'em up doesn't

I don't understand what the issue is, or how we go from "shinobis have hunter's instinct" to "rangers need an overhaul."
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

trihero wrote:
Goumindong wrote:Shinobi also get rapid fire if that is what you're referring to (otherwise no, Rangers cannot move and fire twice). They also get serial if they want
- if they both have rapid fire, rangers can still attack one more time than shinobis, not always, but the volume of fire potential is very practically and often there
- shinobis have less aim in general than rangers
- rapid fire has an aim penalty whereas light'em up doesn't

I don't understand what the issue is, or how we go from "shinobis have hunter's instinct" to "rangers need an overhaul."
You said "flank and shoot twice". You can't do that with light em up.

The issues with Rangers is that they're outperformed by flanking, that their skills do not allow them to be powerful killers compared to ones that are not supposed to be... And they only have 2 offensive skills.

Shinobi, with lone wolf, actually have more aim than Rangers. Unless Rangers have shot at something before (and therefore failed to kill it) or it's less than half health (and therefore failed to kill it).

Other than that they gain a whole 4 aim over the course of all the levels. That is not a lot of aim. Compared to the +10 lone wolf gives you.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

Where did I say flank and shoot twice?

If I did, what I intended to say was sit still and shoot at a flanked unit twice. Rangers are still better at moving and rapid firing due to better aim and locked on and who knows what else perks.
The issues with Rangers is that they're outperformed by flanking, that their skills do not allow them to be powerful killers compared to ones that are not supposed to be... And they only have 2 offensive skills.
What do you mean by outperformed by flanking? Blow up cover with gunner or grenadier, then ranger shoots at flanked target twice, this works just fine and great. Hunter's instinct simply doesn't make up for being able to shoot twice - baseline I add, light em up costs no perks, while hunter's instinct costs one.

Assaults flanking is super risky.

Who else is "outperforming" rangers when it comes to flanking?
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Goumindong »

Shinobi. In general too.

As for moving how else do you get your ranger in a position to shoot at flanked units? Do units regularly just flank themselves for your Rangers? I dare to say that your games must be much easier than mine.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

Goumindong wrote:Shinobi. In general too.

As for moving how else do you get your ranger in a position to shoot at flanked units? Do units regularly just flank themselves for your Rangers? I dare to say that your games must be much easier than mine.
Let's dispense with the cute sayings like "I dare your games are much easier"; I think the issue here is you are just not thinking about obvious things that I use in my game. I'm sure you can think of these things, which I use:

I set up flank with one of the following

Gunners - > demolition, sat fire
Grenadiers -> blow up cover
Technicals -> blow up cover
exo suits shredder gun -> blow up cover

In addition, without having to rely on cover destruction:

- I ever vigiliant/rapid reaction flank, which is awesome, it's essentially like CCS but the ranger has CUP and rapid reaction doesn't have a 4 tile limit
- Move + rapid fire on ranger is better than move + rapid fire on shinobi (rangers have better aim and use rifles, shinobis with smgs + hunter's instincts are a poor man's version of this)

Not only is your point about rangers being "outclassed" at flanking incomplete/wrong, but also there are plenty of units that can't be flanked where now the shinobi just looks downright bad:

archons, chrysallids, drones, sectopods, gatekeepers, bersekers, chrysallids, turrets, and I'm sure there's more I missed. Rangers are amazing for those types of enemies in addition to being fine against flanked targets.
User avatar
Arantir
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:20 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by Arantir »

Tac Sense is pretty good indeed, but Implacable is just insanely strong on a rifle/shotgun serial killer Shinobi. If you can pick your first target it's basically a free Run & Gun every turn and with Serial activated you retain this bonus move while killing stuff from the same position and then can move further for a full-scale cleanup, even more so with grappling hook available.

This can also get pretty mad if you get some good AWC perks. I've recently emptied 3 full hi-cap coil rifle mags in 1 turn with my Shinobi on a recent low% supply raid (Damn Good Ground, Agression & Lethal from AWC). That was 11-16 base damage with 40(flank)+30(agr)+15(holo)+10(talon)=95% crit on a holotargeted pod and activating another 8-sized group (so I was fighting 3 groups in total) wasn't a big deal either (grapple > kill 4 more gyus > hide from LoS).

Rangers for sure got a different role. Early game it's damage support & finishing low-hp enemies with some optional close-range burst. Mid & Late game it's either single-target damage-dealer with some support capabilities or overwatch stentry. Regarding OW builds - it's weak until Rapid Reaction but really strong afterwards and I think it's one of the best roles for your slowest soldiers. Ever Vigilnat is super-strong if only it wouldn't break on free actions & such stuff (hope it wold get officially fixed) and works well for your 13 mobility turtles who often need to dash in order to keep up with the rest of your team or get a flank.

Also rangers would be great officers if Lead By Example can get a fix (it's not currently providing aim bonuses unless soldier's will is higher than officer's) cause than you can take one ranger with high base aim, stack perception PCS (yeah, they contribute) & Combat Fitness and provide a strong passive boost right from the front line retaining the ability to command after shooting and you also got Tac Sense to keep the officer from being a priority target for the AI.
Last edited by Arantir on Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: I Just Did a 100% Shinobi Playthrough: What I Learned About Rangers

Post by trihero »

Also rangers would be great officers if Lead By Example can get a fix (it's not currently providing aim bonuses unless soldier's will is higher than than officer's)
Wow, it's still bugged? I reported this before the forums converted to pavonis, because I was playing with the leader pack mod and noticed this before January. I remember one of the devs even saying thanks for reporting the bug, I guess it slipped through the cracks for 3+ months.
Post Reply