Wet Work Balance

[trihero]

This is pretty accurate, but here's the thing- you know how you referred to your insane team of badasses gaining one level? If you had a 5-man team, you could kill 200 enemies and Wet Work might not even give you a level... if the kills were equally spread around, with 40 kills per man, they would each get experience equivalent to running 1 2-man stealth mission. IIRC the doom reinforcements timer on Veteren is ~12 turns after completing the objective, so you get maybe 6 pods dropping before the doom reinforcements start, and frankly I'm not sure any squad can indefinitely hold the doom pods off. Optimistically that's 36 reinforcements before doom reinforcements- and again, you'd need over 200 for Wet Work to give you one Extremely Light stealth mission worth of exp.

A min maxer would do this in the blink of an eye is the point. You can only run a limited number of extremely light missions, this is a bonus experience that you would otherwise not get: i.e. you would be ahead of the curve.

You may feel this is not overall worth the endeavor, but the point I'm trying to make is that a min maxer would take the opportunity to, and that if you increase wet work any further, it only encourages farming reinforcements, which we don't want.

[Ithuriel]

Oh come on, it's obviously unbalanced and improving it to just about anything more sensible would be wise and require little effort.

I like the suggestion of just having it apply +15-20% to *all* XP. It should be retroactive like in vanilla.

While I agree with your former statement, I think your suggestion would honestly be far too powerful. 150 supplies for a total retroactive 15% boost to experience is stupidly good, to the point of Wet Work would become "Take this as soon as you humanely can every single game no matter what." My suggestion earlier could amount to a ~15% experience gain bonus, but that's only if you kill literally everything- that way, it can provide a moderate bonus at times, but only if you focus very heavily on going loud in missions.

[Tuhalu]

Are any of you guys actually sure of how wet work works? The code for xp calculations is pretty hard to dig out and interpret. At least part of your mission kill experience is based on the total number of enemies in a mission. If wet work multiplies that (and I'm not convinced it doesn't), then its an amazing bonus.

[Dlareh]

I think your suggestion would honestly be far too powerful. 150 supplies for a total retroactive 15% boost to experience is stupidly good, to the point of Wet Work would become "Take this as soon as you humanely can every single game no matter what." My suggestion earlier could amount to a ~15% experience gain bonus, but that's only if you kill literally everything- that way, it can provide a moderate bonus at times, but only if you focus very heavily on going loud in missions.

The idea is you obviously want it, like very many other things in the game. But because it's retroactive, you prioritize other things first and get it at the correct time. That is how it was in Vanilla, and I am thoroughly unconvinced by your notion that it'd be "stupidly" good.

[nightwyrm]

I think your suggestion would honestly be far too powerful. 150 supplies for a total retroactive 15% boost to experience is stupidly good, to the point of Wet Work would become "Take this as soon as you humanely can every single game no matter what." My suggestion earlier could amount to a ~15% experience gain bonus, but that's only if you kill literally everything- that way, it can provide a moderate bonus at times, but only if you focus very heavily on going loud in missions.

The idea is you obviously want it, like very many other things in the game. But because it's retroactive, you prioritize other things first and get it at the correct time. That is how it was in Vanilla, and I am thoroughly unconvinced by your notion that it'd be "stupidly" good.

I'm actually pretty sure Vanilla patched Wet Work to no longer be retroactive somewhere along the line.

[LordYanaek]

You may feel this is not overall worth the endeavor, but the point I'm trying to make is that a min maxer would take the opportunity to, and that if you increase wet work any further, it only encourages farming reinforcements, which we don't want.

But improving Wet Works on kill only would also encourage people to actually fight rather than stealth every mission, which we actually want. Rewarding fights would be a much better approach to the "stealth issue" than doing some chainsaw surgery on conceal or other stealth mechanisms.
What we need is something to prevent farming reinforcements themselves. Stopping XP gain after the main objective is completed is a good idea thought you might delay some non-timed objectives (avatar facility mission), the number of applicable missions would be much lower. This in addition to the "doom" reinforcements should prevent abuse. Doom reinforcements could also be tweaked to be more frightening and less rewarding to fight by dropping stronger enemies rather than even more of them if you really wait too long (nobody would laugh at a full pod of Crysalid Soldiers in early-mid-game )

[aedn]

Experience in general is weighted to far in favor of number of missions, vs kills. Wet work just does not have any real value due to the how little it modifies kill experience in general which is to low in proportion to mission experience.

[nick_abbott]

I used to look forward to getting the "wet work" perk. This kind of sucks.

[chrisb]

Easiest way to rebalance wet work is change the ratio of free xp to kill xp. With 85% of the xp being given to you for free, there's not much left for wet work to. Even if you made wet work 100% more kill xp it would hardly be noticable when free xp is already over 500% of kill xp.

[3tamatulg]

I would advocate deleting it from the game.

It's one of those things which will either be a trap or a must-take depending on balance.

Right now it's obviously a complete waste.

[SouthpawHare]

I would advocate deleting it from the game.

It's one of those things which will either be a trap or a must-take depending on balance.

Right now it's obviously a complete waste.

There's nothing wrong with being a must-take; that's how it was in vanilla. It was never a question of if you were going to get it, just when. With plenty of other things to spend supply on, this would still be an interesting decision. As such, I vote for erring on the side of powerful.

[Sporadix]

It's a unique, one-time upgrade from the GTS. Having it as a must-take is fine as a progression milestone. It's not like it alters or trivializes gameplay every mission (lol Oscar Mike/Command).

Having a useless upgrade though, is really quite bad, design-wise. Buff it or remove it completely.

[Ithuriel]

Experience in general is weighted to far in favor of number of missions, vs kills. Wet work just does not have any real value due to the how little it modifies kill experience in general which is to low in proportion to mission experience.

I think it's entirely reasonable to have wet work only modify kill exp; you don't want to completely revamp the experience system. I feel that Wet Work being an upgrade that increases the reward on kill-heavy missions by up to ~15% is an upgrade I would certainly consider, but isn't clearly unbalancing. That's also why I suggested significantly increasing the multiplier, to for instance +100%.

It's a unique, one-time upgrade from the GTS. Having it as a must-take is fine as a progression milestone. It's not like it alters or trivializes gameplay every mission (lol Oscar Mike/Command).

Having a useless upgrade though, is really quite bad, design-wise. Buff it or remove it completely.

Maybe I'm just bad at the game, but I haven't found Oscar Mike/Command to trivialize stealth missions in the slightest? I've literally gotten that combo to work once, and regardless due to the stealth mechanics of the game I often find that you can get discovered by a pod early in the level simply due to bad luck (e.g. a pod is next to the corner of a building, when you take cover against the railing you get instantly spotted, and you had no way of seeing the pod beforehand). That said, the one time I had a Specialist hack the prison door, shaped charge the wall behind her, then get commanded to the evac zone in the same turn? Felt damn good.

[bountygiver]

oscar mike into command did not trivalize gameplay, it's straight up necessary if you want to have a chance to complete stealth vip extractions, due to there will always be a pod patrolling around the evac zone.

Unless you consider any form of stealth missions are trivalizing gameplay.

[Sporadix]

oscar mike into command did not trivalize gameplay, it's straight up necessary if you want to have a chance to complete stealth vip extractions, due to there will always be a pod patrolling around the evac zone.

That's exactly why it trivializes gameplay. Those pods were put there for a reason... Let me put it this way: I'm almost certain that Oscar Mike/Command will not remain in its current form after 1.3.

[Jacke]

That's exactly why it trivializes gameplay. Those pods were put there for a reason... Let me put it this way: I'm almost certain that Oscar Mike/Command will not remain in its current form after 1.3.

The problem is tactical and even moreso strategic balance is a knife-edge in XCOM. That's why vanilla had limitations on number of enemy activated; it was its way to seek a balance without going over. LW2 has decided on different controls, but it still needs to be close to those balances.

Oscar Mike and Command are being used in VIP extracts because it's often the only way the VIPs can be extracted on a stealth mission. And strategically XCOM doesn't have the wherewithall to fight in all its missions because it doesn't have the resources and it can't take loss of troops to wounds and deaths. And without those VIPs, engineers, scientists, soldiers, and rebels, XCOM can't replace those numbers, won't be able to grow and will suffer effective campaign failures more often and sooner.

So if those tools are changed without other changes, expect things to tilt over too far.

[Sporadix]

The problem is tactical and even moreso strategic balance is a knife-edge in XCOM. That's why vanilla had limitations on number of enemy activated; it was its way to seek a balance without going over. LW2 has decided on different controls. But Oscar Mike and Command are being used in VIP extracts because it's often the only way they can be extracted on a stealth mission. And strategically XCOM doesn't have the wherewithall to fight in all its missions because it doesn't have the resources and it can't take loss of troops to wounds and deaths. And without those VIPs, engineers, scientists, soldiers, and rebels, XCOM can't replace those numbers, won't be able to grow and will suffer effective campaign failures more often and sooner.

So if those tools are changed without other changes, expect things to tilt over too far.

I mean, yeah. I agree. It just seems to me that many of these stealth missions were never intended to be stealth missions in the first place. Once you figure out that almost every GOP can be beaten by OM/Command, everything interesting about these missions disappears. And that doesn't really make for a healthy strategy game. I have no idea what JL and crew are planning, but I have very high expectations

[Jacke]

Well, I find the Extract VIP from City missions still challenging, partly due to the unconcealed VIP and partly due to even 9 enemy from Extremely Light being a serious threat without concealment and with the quality of the enemy troops now; and more often it's now Very Light or Light. And I send 3 Shinobi on them too. The last one I had I only got the VIP out by shear luck, sneaking him past pods just out of range or on the other side of a mostly windowless building. And I still needed Oscar Mike and Command for the final dash to the evac.

I can't afford to send a fighting team, partly due to short expiry times and partly due to not having enough troops. And the VIPs and experience from these missions isn't available in any other way.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Last time I had an extract VIP mission, it said it was light but I found at least 3 pods of 4 aliens camping within a blue move of the extraction point. Plus one more on patrol, a turret, and a pair of chrysalis's due to a dark event. My A team might have been able to fight through it but probably not in the allotted time.

I'm not ashamed to admit I save scummed till I figured out how to distract the pods with one shinobi (who then reconcealed and escaped) while the other one sneaked close enough to Oscar Mike command the VIP to the exit. I don't think there was another possibility even if I'd detected the mission in time and brought a full combat team.

[josna238]

I rushed WW on my first game because didn't know the XP mechanics. To me it doesn't worth. I have farmed EVAC point drops and it is rare to resist more than 3 pods. And it is only on some missions. So, even adding Kills, plus reinforcements the killing XP for mission is something like 5 or 6 XP per soldier while mission XP could be around 20 XP. So a 33% more means +1.5 per mission in a pool of 25 doesn't worth so much supplies (early game I mean).

Buying seven rookies worths much more!