Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

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LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by LordYanaek »

OK, so i just finished my first real campaign (started one in 1.0 but restarted after 1.1) (Commander difficulty - non ironman FWIW) and of course i felt like i should post my own "post campaign feedback" thread :lol:
Well, not exactly as i won't delve in class balance or dark events, a lot have been already discussed. Instead i want to post my own experience about one very specific aspect of the game, corpses requirements for both autopsies unlocking some items and producing those items, and especially late game corpses.

I think switching to mostly evac missions was a wise move from Pavonis as having to kill "every" ADVENT guy in most mission when you are supposed to be a small band of rebels trying to make quick strikes in enemy territory always bugged me. However it have introduced a fundamental and possibly hard to solve balance issue when combined with the corpses required to build many items.

In my first quickly abandoned run i had almost no Stun Lancer corpses to build better swords for my shinobis. It's been much better this time, i even managed to get enough of those for instant autopsy and then of course i had a stock for swords. This finished run however, i ran into another issue with late game autopsies and the items unlocked. Specifically, 2 late game enemies were very hard to encounter in ambush missions, and i ran a lot of those to the point i slowed Avatar by more than 100% at the end and the doom counter was at 4 "pips" when i finally invaded waterworld. Those enemies were Gatekeepers and Andromedons. I managed to autopsy a gatekeeper in December after specifically taking a late game HQ in hope of facing those 2 enemies, but the first Andromedon corpse i recovered was in February second year! I barely finished Advanced explosives and Fire Bomb in time for waterworld but no other post Andromedon project and never got a second corpse to build a single T3 Holotargetter.
This had an impact on the late game performances of several of my soldiers. My 2 Psi of course suffered from the lack of T3 Psi-amp for a long time especially since Psi-amp tier seem to have way more impact on their abilities than their Psi Offense. After T3 Psi-amp i finally had good probabilities on Insanity (up to 90% on ADVENT and 100% on Aliens) and good damage on Null Lance, but it was so late that i could have finished the game had i not taken my time to progress through the storyline missions. A lot of the "Psi Troopers sucks" argument would probably disappear if T3 Psi-amps were actually available before the campaign is finished for many players! Of course, out of my 2 Filed Commanders, i didn't choose the Holotargetter one to lead the final assault without a T3 Holotargetter.
February was way too late to get this first Andromedon corpse, many players would have finished (win or loose) before and an entire branch of Proving Ground projects depends on it. I had faced them for months in evac missions, but never in ambushes.

Similar issues can occur during the campaign. You will eventually get some of those corpses, but sometimes after a long time. Having the secondary upgrade delayed while they are already less frequent (3 tiers instead of 5 for primaries) can really hurt some builds.

If possible, it would be nice to have some check when spawning pods so that after a new enemy appeared, if the player have not recovered a given number of corpses, that enemy is forced to appear on non-evac missions. It doesn't have to be very high, something between 3-5 so you can make the autopsy and build a few items but you are not offered the instant autopsy each time.
Phrozehn
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by Phrozehn »

I really want to see psi amps ONLY be responsible for giving you psi offense boosts, and not be a determinant for anyhting else psi related. Let the damage of all your abilities be strictly tied to psi offense. Let any ability with damage or % to hit be influence by psi offense. That way we'd be less reliant on Psi amps in general since the bulk of the Psi's improvement will happen through leveling up. Yea, having 20 less offense sucks, but it won't be THAT significant. It won't be a hard cap on our abilities strength.
modjo
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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:28 pm

Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by modjo »

Perhaps corpses should be available to buy on the black market for a pretty penny?
Alketi
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by Alketi »

I would love to see corpses be available from Blacksites. This would solve two problems at once.

Currently there's zero incentive to non-stealth a Blacksite. Xavier stealths all of his. Adding corpses and perhaps toning down the reinforcement timer would change Blacksites to more of an Advent HQ-type mission, which are the most fun missions in the game, IMO. This would give the player actual rewards for fighting their way through, and would solve some other issues as well.
Jacke
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by Jacke »

I include the mod Extract Corpses. I adjust it so XCOM can't carry out the heavier aliens, like Mutons and Andromedons. But I'm planning on bringing at least 1 Fulton Harness really soon when I start seeing the heavier aliens so I can at least get 2 of their bodies out. I hope that solves the corpse shortage problems.
LordYanaek
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by LordYanaek »

Well, additional mods are interesting but i really hope LW2 itself will be balanced enough that it doesn't need other mods if you want to actually be able to build some of the existing equipment ;)
Jacke
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by Jacke »

I think the function of Extract Corpses should be in the game, whether XCOM 2 or LW2. I'm also wondering if the corpse issues are going to be addressed as they've been reported since 1.1 and maybe since 1.0.
seananigans
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Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by seananigans »

I still personally think corpses should just be rewarded for every mission no matter what, thematic/realism issues be damned. I enjoy the thematic reasoning for corpses being needed for tech advancement in various ways, but I have yet to see anyone reconcile this completely with the fact that 75% or more of the missions you run will never allow you to collect them.

Adjust costs/pricing/tech requirements accordingly, of course.


-edit- Oh, and yeah, I posted this elsewhere, but Andromedon specifically needs a good looking-at. It's a gateway to too much stuff, such that they either need to be more common (I suggested perhaps creation of two tiers, mk1 and mk2 similar to advent tiers), with mk1 showing up much earlier in campaigns, or the recipes and requirements need to be shuffled around. Personally I'd prefer the former. My current campaign (veteran) just encountered its first one, on a network tower mission -- no corspes yay -- in mid November. And despite having PLENTY of intel across the world, I haven't seen a troop ambush in over a month, so I'm not holding out much hope that I'll ever see advanced launchers, bombs, etc.
LordYanaek
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Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by LordYanaek »

seananigans wrote:I still personally think corpses should just be rewarded for every mission no matter what, thematic/realism issues be damned. I enjoy the thematic reasoning for corpses being needed for tech advancement in various ways, but I have yet to see anyone reconcile this completely with the fact that 75% or more of the missions you run will never allow you to collect them.
Well, it's not an issue for most corpses. Even Muton Elites were plentiful enough that my Waterworld assault team had Carapace Plating for everyone with plating (the 2 nest snipers didn't have any plating) plus i had dragon rounds on 4 soldiers. It's really a few specific corpses causing issues, mainly those that provide upgraded secondary weapons and especially the Andromedon. It wouldn't be an issue if it actually appeared on those "Full Salvage" missions, there is enough of them, especially mid-late game, but they never showed for me even thought i fought a lot of them in every other mission.

So either the pods composition should be tweaked to make them more frequent on Full Salvage missions (probably easy but not enough to guarantee you get them in time) or some sort of safety check should be added so that they are forced into those missions if you didn't recover a minimal amount of them already (certainly a lot more work).

Reverting to corpses recovery in every mission would require reverting to "kill them all" for every missions which is definitely not something i want.
nightwyrm
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Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by nightwyrm »

The distribution of enemy types in the game can definitely use a bit of work. For example, in almost every Enemy Material mission I've seen, there is always at least one "rainbow" pod of 8 Advent soldiers. That's 8 enemy slots devoted to useless corpses in the late game. Makes the mission kinda boring too. Every mission starts with hide everyone until you find the rainbow pod and then burn them.
seananigans
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Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by seananigans »

LordYanaek wrote:Reverting to corpses recovery in every mission would require reverting to "kill them all" for every missions which is definitely not something i want.
I guess I'd have to respectfully disagree with you here. Part of my suggestion included a rebalance/tuning/etc of pricing, costs, requirements, etc. Surely there's a balance that could be found without too terribly much work such that the game could allow corpse recovery on every mission without people feeling required to kill everything every time.
LordYanaek
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Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by LordYanaek »

You didn't understood my post. Apart from totally rewriting mission results you don't recover corpses in Evac missions and there is only 2 ways to end a mission, evac or "kill them all". If you want to recover corpses in every mission (short of adding some special abilities like the recover corpses mod mentioned previously) missions must be changed to "kill them all". It has nothing to do with what players want to do or how balanced costs are, it's a limitation of XCom's mission structure.
seananigans
Posts: 88
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Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by seananigans »

LordYanaek wrote:You didn't understood my post. Apart from totally rewriting mission results you don't recover corpses in Evac missions and there is only 2 ways to end a mission, evac or "kill them all". If you want to recover corpses in every mission (short of adding some special abilities like the recover corpses mod mentioned previously) missions must be changed to "kill them all". It has nothing to do with what players want to do or how balanced costs are, it's a limitation of XCom's mission structure.
Right, I understood. The mods exist, the functionality is there however one decides to access it. Nothing requires changing all mission objectives to kill-em-all. You sort of answered your own "issue" in your own post.

Bottom line, the functionality exists to receive corpse loot from evac missions. makeitso.jpg (IMO)
LordYanaek
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by LordYanaek »

Well, as i already said, i think LW2 should be balanced so that it doesn't require an additional mod if you want to be able to build existing items. ;)
Of course the mod is there and i plan to use it but really but i shouldn't have to use it.

Integrating this functionality in LW2 itself would probably be a good idea as it would fix this issue but also give you a reason to fight in non "kill them all" missions (rather than just nerfing stealth we need something to reward fighting). However there is a difference between being able to carry a few corpses and automatically collecting all of them which was how i understood your proposition (but maybe i didn't understood correctly).

I don't think the devs want to integrate other mods into LW2 thought, unless there would be compatibility issues and the function is really important. In this case i think the functionality would be important.

Just in case someone want a link this is the Mod Jacke mentionned
Sorbicol
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Re: Post campaign feedback - Late game corpses

Post by Sorbicol »

Before my copy of XCOM 2 irretrievably broke over the weekend, I too was in the late stages of my first LW2 campaign (Unlocked plasma weapons, I had all the tier 3 armour, and only the Psi Gate left of the Golden Path to get to Waterworld) in January 2036 game time.

At that point I was mostly just farming Troop Column ambushes and 0% supply raids just to try and get either Archon or Andromedon corpses to recover. In about 15 missions of that type, I saw none. Oddly enough however, I had no problem with Gatekeepers once the first appeared early December.

I had 2 archons from one HQ assault (I think) probably in August game time. That was enough to do the research and build 1 fusion blade. But that was the only time I saw them on anything other than stealth/evac missions. I never saw a single Andromedon in any of the "corpse recovery" missions - although, at the point my game crashed, I had lined up my first UFO mission to see if any would drop there.

I know I posted about this on other threads (specifically the Psi-Ops one) but some classes - Combat Shinobis especially, Psi-Ops as well until the gatekeepers show up - suffer massively from not have the required corpses drop in sufficient quantities to be able to build them their high tier specialized weaponry. I know the Advanced Grenade thrower / advanced grenades probably overpower the grenadier a little, but it would be really nice to get the opportunity to see that in action!
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