[Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Thrair
Long War 2 Crew
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Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:37 am

[Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Thrair »

So, I thought I'd sum of my thoughts so far, regarding the balance of the perk trees on the classes. Around the time I decided I was ready to wipe the campaign, I edited the ini to reduce AWC retraining to 1 day and experimented a little. I'm not going to argue overall class balance vs other classes. Just the perk balance within a class.

As a side note, I pretty much ignored Psionics this playthough as being not worth the investment, so I've no feedback to offer on that. Also haven't really used my Sparks (Lost Towers popped very late in the first playthrough, and just focused on other things in my 1.2 run), although I intend to give them a go in 1.3.

Btw, I apologize in advance for the mammoth wall of text. Just wanted to give my feedback regarding the perk balance for the main eight classes at once, rather than split it into 8 different posts. You have been warned.

Specialist:
LCPL: Good balance.
-Medical Protocol is the core of a Medic build, CUP is the core of an Overwatch build, and Combat Protocol is an excellent damage ability, especially early game vs Drones and on Specialists with low aim. Even late-game, it remains useful for finishing off wounded enemies.
CPL: Large imbalance.
-This tier is one of the more glaring rank-imbalances in 1.2. I never took Covering Fire, because that perk is an active detriment more often than not. Interference is alright, and does it's job..... trouble is, so does just about any form of damage or crowd control. I never really got much use out of it. Revival Protocol, on the other hand, was downright godly useful. From clearing disorient off my Gunners so they could use an ability, to that time I completely forgot about a Stun Lancer and the fucker knocked my best grenadier unconscious. As it stands, Revival Protocol is a pure auto-pick on this rank. No exceptions.
SGT: Good balance.
-Field Medic is great for dedicated Medics. Airdrop is also fantastic, especially when matched with a Grenadier. Although it can also be fun to give a grenade to a VIP so they can do more than sit on their thumbs (especially during Extract the VIP missions), I'm not sure that's intended behavior? Suppression feels like the weakest option on the tier, but has it's uses with the improvements to suppression compared to LW1. I also used it to decent effect on high-aim hack specialists. (More on that in the summary.)
SSGT: Poor balance.
-Field Surgeon isn't bad, exactly. Far from it. It has a niche use on the slog-type missions as insurance against large wound timers. But Failsafe is so damn good. It turns hacking from a high risk/high reward to a "one action, chance at high reward". Specialists have a good number of single-action abilities, so if it's a choice between shooting with a specialist for poor damage or going for a 30% chance to control that sectopod, it's worth a shot. It also makes me bother with hacking signposts. I'm rarely going to take a 50% chance to get a small aim/crit bonus on a soldier, or extra dodge... if the failure spawns reinforcements or breaks concealment/makes half the map go into yellow alert. Negating that penalty on failure is amazing. I love Failsafe. Ever Vigilant, meanwhile, I never take. Ever. It doesn't compete with either other option. I suppose it has it's place as part of the Overwatch tree, though. (More on that in the summary.)
TSGT: Good balance.
-Savior is great for dedicated Medics, niche though they may be. Trojan is fantastic when it works, and it's current issues are bug-related. It's also downright fun. Unique and well-designed ability. Sentinel is kinda the odd man out here, as with many of the Overwatch perks, but again it has it's place as part of the Overwatch tree. (Again, more on that in the summary.)
GSGT: Great balance.
-Scanning Protocol is very useful, and becomes more so later in the campaign. (Faceless Dark Events can kiss my ass, btw. With a rusty spork. *shakes fist*). I got a Specialist with Covert and Ghostwalker via the AWC, and they became my premier solo-hacking agent. Scanning Protocol on them worked fantastic, because they didn't need the offensive/defensive punch of the other options. Threat Assessment, meanwhile.... is simply amazing. It increases the cooldown... sure. But it gives an extra shot to a squadmate (with better damage/aim than a specialist can muster, most likely) and is downright disgusting when paired with a Overwatch Ranger. Killzone's also quite good, and effectively served as the secondary capstone of my high-aim specialists (More in summary, yada yada).
MSGT: Great balance.
-Restoration is THE Medic capstone and can nearly erase the aftermath of a bad engage. Full Override is not only useful for being a second Haywire (with better odds, it seems?), but has a great Strategic layer benefit, which almost no other perk can claim. Sure, it's buggy atm, but getting fixed. It's worth getting on at least a couple hacking specialists. Capacitor Discharge, meanwhile, is also very good. It doesn't give you the strategic benefit of Full Override, not does it give ya chance to grab a Sectopod for a whole mission... but having a wide-area effect that does more damage than a plasma grenade, extra damage to robotics, can stun, and can be sent out from long range? It's a one-shot wonder, that's for damn sure. I usually prefer to take Full Override on my best two hackers, and Capacitor Discharge on the rest. My dedicated Medics get Restoration, ofc.

Summary:
Overall, I find their balance quite good. Medic builds are niche, but very strong within that niche. Hacking specialists are consistently useful. Always bring one on my missions. Their Overwatch tree? It's not worth it. With their lesser damage, Sentinel vs Grazing Rapid Reaction, and lesser aim progression, they do the job worse than Rangers. And the cost of building for it is giving up some of their best medical and hacking perks. That said, I still like them having that perk tree. The reason for this is twofold:

First of all, because most of the Overwatch perks are already on their tree, they do not show up in the AWC set (which is good, because Overwatch perks work best with synergy that the AWC does not guarantee). My specialists tend to get very good defensive AWC perks as a result. Often getting Covert and/or Ghostwalker, for example.

Secondly, I found a very viable combat oriented build that worked with my high aim specialists that did not need all of the middle tree perks to work, allowing me to retain the best of the hacking perks. Essentially, my high-aim hackers took CUP/Suppression/Killzone. Not a single one of those perks competes with a hacking perk, and they pair up nicely. With CUP giving extra aim/crit, and Killzone having Covering Fire baked in, these high-aim specialists could get good mileage out. I would either hack something, Killzone, or Suppress something and either pin it down or make it move by flanking it with my Assaults or tank Technicals (thus forcing it to eat the Suppression shot). It worked very well as a sub-build to my typical hacking builds (which take Combat Protocol/Airdrop/Threat Assessment, instead).


Gunner:
LCPL: Average balance.
-Some prefer Center Mass for it's early-game power and synergy with Hail of Bullets. I preferred Grazing Fire for late-game potential and better synergy with Cyclic, Chain Shot, and Saturation Fire. Valid choice, either way. However, Combatives is a bit lackluster. It's fun and unique, but very rarely used. The free dodge mitigates this, but not enough to compete with Grazing or Center Mass. Tank Gunners are a little reliant on some luck via the AWC to work, and are badly outshone by Cooldown Gunners. That said, when/if Cooldown builds get nerfed, Combatives might start to be more appealing.
CPL: Poor balance.
-Hail is still the auto-pick of the tier. Lockdown is alright on it's own, but Hail is Much better if you want to hit something. Shredder is good, but not good enough to compete with 100% damage. The ammo nerf did affect Hail, but not by much. Still too easy to just reload/Hail. Nerf just affected other classes via AWC.
SGT: Terrible balance.
-This tier is my choice for worst tier-balance in all of 1.2. Flush and Iron Curtain are somewhat sub-average as far as cooldown perks go, while Demolition is one of the strongest in the entire Gunner tree. With the nerfs to Sapper meaning Grenadiers are unreliable at cover destruction until Combat Engineer at max rank, Gunners are the premier cover busters in the early-mid game (Technicals also do so, but only once/mission and at the cost of yellow-alerting half the map). Meanwhile Flush is heavily nerfed from it's LW1 version (less bonus aim, less damage, cannot proc ammo special effects) and Iron Curtain just doesn't compete with popping Cover. Iron Curtain's not useless (I found some decent use out of is as an opener from Concealment. Half-damage to an exposed pod that lowers their move so they tend to have less ability to scamper to good spots), but it's not going to cut it vs reliable cover destruction. Not even close.
SSGT: Average balance.
-Chain Shot's pretty good for volume of fire, especially paired with Grazing Fire. Mayhem is downright disgusting on a Suppression-build Gunner with expanded mags and someone to flank. It also scales off a percentage of weapon damage, meaning it adds more and more damage with higher weapon tiers. Formidable is a bit lackluster at this rank, and that contributes to the poor viability of tank gunners. But even then, it's not bad and still worth considering with the right stats and AWC rolls.
TSGT: Great balance.
-As with Chain Shot, Cyclic is great for volume of fire. Hits like a truck on exposed targets, as well. Grazing makes it that much better. Danger Zone, meanwhile, is still strong even with the nerf. Cool Under Pressure is a solid alternative to Danger Zone on Suppression builds that place greater emphasis on damage than area of effect (Mayhem crits HURT). Also, Cool Under Pressure becomes an instant auto-pick the second a Gunner rolls Rapid Reaction. They already get Grazing Fire... so they instantly become an Overwatch beast. It's worth retraining a Gunner for this if they land on Rapid Reaction. I did on one of my Gunners... and my Rangers hated his slimy guts for it. Worth the half-month he spent in the tube.
GSGT: Good/Average balance.
-Also a good tier for perk balance. Saturation Fire is amazing. Full damage in a small cone that can pop cover (if somewhat unreliably). And downright broken with Shadowstrike, so I hear (still haven't gotten a gunner with it in my playthroughs... :cry:) Traverse Fire is probably a little weaker, but still a good option as it provides better volume of fire and turns the Gunner into a pseudo-Ranger with better base damage/ammo/aim progression. Rapid Fire is the weakest on this tier, I feel. It's only advantage over Traverse is being able to take an action and still shoot twice. Which isn't worth the aim-penalty and lack of flexibility that Traverse provides. Gunners are not mobility-reliant.
MSGT: Good balance.
-Fairly well balanced tier. Rupture is great, Combat Fitness is one of the best defensive perks that provides a little offense on the side, and Killzone is not bad at all. My preference is on Combat Fitness or Rupture, but my choice still ended up depending mostly on the Gunner's stats and what they got via AWC. So I feel that's a good sign.

Summary:
-Overall, I feel Gunners are one of the least-balanced classes in terms of their perk tree, atm. I'll keep my rant limited because I already went into greater detail in another thread. But the short version is they have too many powerful cooldowns that do not compete with each other on their perk tree, allowing Gunners to pick up all of them and cycle between them. And many of these powerful cooldowns are opposing much weaker perks.


Grenadier:
LCPL: Below-average balance.
-Rapid Deployment is the go-to choice for a Support Grenadier, so this tier tends to select the general path. Explosive Grenadiers are thus left choosing between Needle Grenades and Sapper. I dislike Needle Grenades, but many like it as an early-game option. However, I feel like Sapper is underwhelming because Grenadiers are still unreliable at popping cover even with the perk. (More on this in the summary.) It's partly for this reason that you see a number of hybrid Grenadiers alongside dedicated support Grenadiers. Rarely do you see fully dedicated explosives Grenadiers. I certainly found little place for them.
CPL: Average balance.
-Heavy Ordinance vs Protector is balanced and comes down to a choice of intended build path. However, Formidable is a bit lackluster compared to either. As far as defensive perks go, it's one of the better ones, and fits thematically (I'm tempted to say Grenadiers should get it by default like Shinobi get Phantom. Less for game-balance and more for thematic purposes ;) ).
SGT: Average balance.
-Boosted Cores and Center Mass are +1 damage perks. They're alright. Bluescreen Bombs, however, are incredibly useful. Affect more enemy types with Flashbangs and make it easier for your specialists to hack in. The only thing keeping this tier balanced is the tendency of Grenadiers to specialize one way or the other. As an aside, I'm not sure if Boosted Cores increases environmental damage or not.
SSGT: Average balance.
-Sting Grenades is absolutely incredible for support Grenadiers. For explosives Grenadiers, Tandem is an excellent choice. Both synergize very well with Volatile Mix. HEAT Warheads feels significantly weaker. For one, because it competes with Tandem, it doesn't increase the damage as much by comparison as one would think, due to falloff. It's primary draw is +1 shred, which is iffy in utility come late-game. Certainly compared to Sting or Tandem.
TSGT: Average balance.
-Chain Shot is pretty good if the Grenadier has good base aim. I favour it on my Support builds that tend to load up on as many Flashbangs as possible. Dense Smoke is quite good on itself, though I take it less often than Chain Shot or Biggest Booms because my Grenadiers tend to heavily specialize. (More on that in the summary.) Biggest Booms is highly lackluster on it's own. It's basically Boosted Cores on average, just with a little bit of randomization. However, with Bring 'em On, it apparently becomes extremely valuable. I have not had the luck of getting such a Grenadier, as it's a second tier AWC perk and I usually have other classes more in need of Offensive-side AWC training, so I cannot speak for this from personal experience.
GSGT: Good balance.
-Volatile mix is extremely good and has excellent synergy with Tandem Warheads, Sting Grenades, Incendiary Grenades, Frostbomb Grenades, etc etc. Very good perk. Ghost Grenade is much more situational, but being able to conceal a unit at will is very useful. As an aside, Firaxis never fixed the issue with Specialists triggering pods while re-concealed, they just hid it by removing it from their AWC perk list. And that bug can crop up with Ghost Grenades. (And re-conceal from hacked lampposts). I feel like Bombardier is probably the weakest perk in this list, but it's not bad if you REALLY want extra range. And I suspect it will increase in value once 1.3 goes through and sounds originate from the explosion and not the soldiers.
MSGT: Good balance.
-Combat Engineer finally allows Grenadiers to pop cover reliably, both with a massive boost to environmental damage and by eliminating falloff for said damage. Full Kit is obscenely good if one is willing to devote the equipment slots for it, though with the trade-off of losing out on other uses for the slots if you go full-out. Salvo is probably below Full Kit in sheer power, but is a decent all-rounder, especially paired with EXO/WAR suits.

Summary:
Overall, Grenadier balance is currently slanted heavily in favour of support builds with the power of Flashbangs and the great number of perks that boost them without further material investment. It is also influenced by the fact that cover destruction is quite unreliable, even with Sapper (largely due to falloff, I suspect). Furthermore, Incendiary grenades are just that good, and don't get much benefit from Sapper, Boosted Cores, etc. So the vast majority of people, myself included, are either building support Grenadiers based around Flashbangs, or hybrids based around Incendiaries. Explosives Grenadiers see very little use.

I'd say the biggest problem, right out of the gate, is Sapper's relative weakness. Going by the wiki, it only adds +3 environmental damage to the base of 9. Factor in both AoE falloff and the +/-20% variance, and it just doesn't make grenades very reliable. Combat Engineer not only adds 8 environmental damage (more than double), it also removes the damage falloff on environmental damage. I would argue for a shift in some of the power from Combat Engineer to Sapper. Perhaps make Sapper +5 damage and Combat Engineer +6. It might make Sapper feel a little more impactful early, so Grenadiers don't have to wait all the way until max rank to feel some consistency in popping cover. They'd still be limited by the falloff until Combat Engineer.

As a side note, I have two small suggestions for the tree.
-First of all specializing as a hybrid with Smoke Grenades feels a bit punished right now, due to the lack of a neutral perk at Staff Sergeant. That tier's perks affect either Flashbangs or explosives, leaving a smoke-spec Grenadier feeling touch left out. All things considered, it's a minor nitpick.
-Secondly, Biggest Booms is very underwhelming without Bring 'em On, and apparently quite deadly with it. I'm half-tempted to say Bring 'em On should be on their perk tree somewhere, in light of this.


Technical:
LCPL: Good balance.
-Fire in the Hole increases the reliability of your rocket/s, which is very nice. Harder to get an exact feel in-game, but according to the wiki it shaves 2 tiles off the worst-case deviation (4 tiles default, +2 if an action has been taken). That's a big boost. Roust is a nice little ability, as much for the higher range as anything else. I'm not overly fond of Suppression on my Technicals, but it's a good general utility tool to pick that means your Technical can always be doing something.
CPL: Average balance.
-Biggest Booms is a little underwhelming (again, without Bring 'em On), but it's not out of line for a CPL perk. Fortify is a good defensive perk on any tree, as a free-action +20 defense is nothing to sneeze at in a pinch. Napalm-X adds a good extra chance to lock down things that don't get set on fire, even if it's not reliable.
SGT: Average balance.
-Shredder is a decent general pick on Technicals, and gives them something to do if they can't get in a good position for an ability. More so if they end up picking Rapid Fire. Burnout is also surprisingly good, I've found. Especially given Flamethrower builds have to get close to do their job. Concussion Rocket is, however, not my favourite perk, for a couple reasons. (More in the summary). Has potential though.
SSGT: Great balance.
-This tier's well balanced. None of the perks feel mandatory for any build. Tandem isn't as good as it was in LW1 because you need an EXO/WAR suit to get more than one shot, and it doesn't affect the special rockets. Still OK. Phosphorus is like-wise decent, but not amazing. Even with the perk, you can't set robots on fire, but it'll at least do some bonus damage and can clear out drones. Formidable isn't stellar on its own, but is a fairly good defensive pickup for flame specialists, who should be picking up at least some defensive options. And with just a little luck from AWC, Formidable can help the Technical become a very good tanking class.
TSGT: Good balance.
-Javelin suffers from the same issue than Tandem does, but still does its job if you go pure rocket spec. I've also heard of some people using it to assassinate Dark VIPs from the evac pad. Which is totally dickish, but in the good way. :twisted: Fire and Steel is nice for not only boosting both weapons direct damage, but also increasing the damage of the fires set. Incinerator is a good choice if you're having trouble finding good positions for your flamethrower (or if you got a Technical with both poor aim AND mobility, like I did).
GSGT: Great balance.
-All good perks, and all with their uses. Salvo is great for rocket builds or those that pick up some grenade perks from the AWC, while still providing occasional use via the flamethrower. Quickburn is excellent for re-positioning after a daring flame attack (especially with high mobility) or just attacking twice. And Tactical Sense remains one of the best defensive perks in the entire game.
MSGT: Good balance.
-Bunker Buster is an excellent capstone perk. Finally lets the Technical get another rocket shot, and a big one that sets the stage for clearing out huge numbers of enemies by nuking cover over a wide area. The middling damage is just a bonus that has the advantage of making it easier to polish off the enemies without running too great a risk of killing them outright and losing loot/corpses. Firestorm's useful just for it's passive, and the AoE effect is generously large. Best of all, it works with Quickburn, allowing your Technical to utterly disrespect entire pods of aliens. Rapid Fire is probably the weaker option on this tier, but can be used more than once per mission, synergizes with Shredder, and can benefit from any number of AWC perks that the Technical might pick up. After all, it'd be a shame to get perks like Lethal, Hunter's Instincts, etc and not be able to build around it. I wouldn't take it unless the AWC lottery made it a good idea, but it's nice to have on there.

Summary:
-Overall, I think Technicals have a fairly balanced tree in terms of perks, but the rocket perks suffer greatly in the mid game. Early game they can end combat on a map nearly by themselves, though at the risk of destroying loot. But as pod sizes and numbers increase, the long delay before getting any extra shots starts to rear its head, making them one-shot wonders. More so because the rocket spec has a limited ability to utilize its flamethrower, while a flamethrower build can still get good use out of it's rocket. However, eventually you can pick up WAR/EXO suits and Bunker Buster, which gives them enough endurance to get through the rougher parts a mission and justifying their specialized perks.

That said... Concussion Rocket.... I want Concussion Rocket to be good. It has a unique effect that probably took a lot of time and effort to code. And it has potential. And it if were in better shape, it might alleviate that mid-game problem of rocket Technicals having almost no endurance.

But, as it stands, it's not worth the complications and inconsistency with the game's application of the smoke bonus. Right now, it feels like a lesser version of Sting Grenades (the scratch damage it deals isn't worth noting), and the smoke effect, while unique, has some bugginess. If the aliens don't move in the smoke (if stunned, or if they just elect not to move), they get no smoke bonus. But if they move at all within the smoke (even on that turn, say through flush/activation/roust), they get +25 defense as the game apparently recalculates their defensive bonuses. It lingers for a couple turns and just makes things messy. Messy is generally bad, because messy is usually the first step in creating a clusterfuck.


Assault:
LCPL: Good balance.
-A lot of people swear by Slugshot, and it's definitely useful. Electroshock meanwhile is stupidly good, and even worth considering if that's the only Arc Thrower perk you intend to take. Lightning Reflexes definitely feels like the weakest option here, given the number of ways to clear Overwatch without getting shot at. That said, the perk's not garbage and I feel a small dodge bonus (maybe 5-10?) would serve to make it an attractive pick for tank Assaults.
CPL: Great balance.
-Trench Gun is a great perk. It's a poor man's Street Sweeper, which is not bad for a CPL perk. And even then it's on a separate cooldown. Arc Pulser provides another tool to use against mechanical enemies and lowers their hack defense. Close and Personal is a great perk to ensure your shotgun really hurts. I find it to be more of an early-game perk as other options to boost crit become available, but there's no arguing it's strong early and remains viable even late-game.
SGT: Great balance.
-Killer Instinct isn't as strong as it was in LW1, with crit damage a flat weapon stat. It still adds a good amount of hurt, especially with higher weapon tiers. It also synergizes well with Extra Conditioning. Stun Gunner is a pretty damn nice perk for an Assault going for the full Arc Thrower perk set. The aim bonus increases with Arc Thrower tier, which is damn handy to compensate for rising defense values. Fortify is a good free-action defensive cooldown if you're making a high-risk flank. Which, given that's pretty much an Assaults job, means it's pretty damn nice to have. My perk choice at this rank heavily depended upon soldier stats and/or known AWC perks.
SSGT: Great balance.
-Another excellent tier. I feel there's a lot flexibility and general use from each perk on this tier. Extra Conditioning pairs well with Killer Instinct (and you'll probably take it if you turn the former perk). Aggression is an amazing perk that becomes more valuable in the late-game. And Formidable pairs well with any tank perks one might pick up via the AWC. Or if you are emphasizing durability on the Assault over raw killing power.
TSGT: Average balance.
-Rapid Fire is always going to be effective and reliable on Assaults, who generally can ignore the aim penalty. It also serves well on Assaults that took Extra Conditioning/Killer Instinct. Close Encounters is conditional, but provides more flexibility and is a very strong alternative on Assaults blessed with high mobility. Hit & Run is the weak spot on this tier. It is less flexible than Close Encounters in terms of followup action and does not allow for a second shot under any circumstance. Honestly, since it no longer allows for another shot, I would remove the restriction of Run & Gun from triggering it.
GSGT: Great balance.
-Another great tier with plenty of room for choice. Bring 'em On really brings the pain on a class that can consistently crit. Close Combat Specialist can wipe out chunks of entire pods with some thought and setup, and remains consistently useful for shooting the AI in the face for getting cheeky. Untouchable is an amazing defensive perk, though I preferred the other two options, some swear by Untouchable. I did end up picking it on an Assault in my prior playthrough who stubbornly refused to gain more than one damn additional point of health via Hidden Potential after her first promotion, but otherwise had excellent mobility and stats.
MSGT: Good balance.
-Street Sweeper is what transforms Assaults from "pretty good damage, but risky" to "watch me eat this pod". With an auto-hit for Shotgun damage on anything not behind full cover, you largely ignore flanking and simply position yourself to get as many in it's cone as you can. The bonus damage against unarmored foes is just icing on the cake. Chain Lightning, meanwhile sits comfortably as the capstone to an Arc Thrower build. This is the single most powerful crowd control cooldown in the entire bloody game. Literally crowds. Is has a 6-turn cooldown for a reason. I could sing love-songs about how awesome this perk is (though it's damn near a cutscene if you screwed up and have a multi-pod engagement). Finally... Lethal is the weak link of the tier. It says something about this rank's perks that a flat +2 damage is the weak option. Still, it's a consistent +4 damage a turn if you're getting two shots off each turn, and I might consider it on a dedicated Close Combat Specialist build, if the AWC rolls worked out. Some people swear by it.

Summary:
-Tier for tier, I think Assaults are tied with Sharpshooters for having the best perk tree in the game at this point. They take a while to get going, but they feel polished, flexible, and effective. Literally the only change I would consider making this this tree is buffing Hit & Run to work with Run & Gun. That's it. Otherwise, I think this is about as good a tree as can be made.

Sharpshooter:
LCPL: Great balance.
-Three great perks that provide role-defining features. DFA is the perk of choice for traditional nest Snipers by negating the worst of the Squadsight aim penalty. Rapid Targeting is the keystone of a spotter build and sets up a great use for a low-aim Sharpshooter. Snap Shot meanwhile, is an excellent pick on a Sharpshooter that rolled up the mobility and aim values to get away with it. I prefer DFA Snipers or Holotarget builds, but I've seen a few streams of people using Snapshot builds to great effect.
CPL: Good balance.
-Damn Good Ground is a nice benefit for nest snipers. We don't have Archangel armor anymore, making it take more thought to use than before, but it's still good to have. Hi-Def Holo is another perk in the Holo-target line. Poor by itself, but the Synergy begins to pile up. Precision Shot is a little more situational, but has value for crit-snipers that already started with plenty of aim and do not especially need the boost. If nothing else, the added crit reduces the chance of a dodge. I kinda wish Snapshot made it take a single action, though. :(
SGT: Great balance.
-All three of these perks are useful. Long Watch is very good for dedicated nest snipers, especially if the AWC gives them Sentinel or Rapid Reaction. Phantom is extremely valuable for Holo-target builds and lets them do their job with much less risk, acting as a true spotter. Deadshot, meanwhile, is just the flat damage boost. However, it's quite popular as a general all-rounder, and is damn near mandatory if you plan to take Kubikuri.
SSGT: Great balance.
-Center Mass is the all-rounder and provides a simple but effective damage boost. Independent Tracking is poor on it's own, but continues to develop the dedicated Holo build. Low Profile is valuable as the only true defensive perk on the tree, especially useful for Snapshot builds.
TSGT: Great balance.
-Aggression is a consistent damage increase that rises in value as the campaign progresses and pods get larger and more numerous. Vital Point Targeting is what makes Holo builds truly effective. And Conceal, while situational, has its uses as a get-out-of-jail-free card if the Sharpshooter gets caught out of position. It's also useful for assassinating VIPs, as all you need to do is find a good spot out of line of sight of enemies on the current turn, rather than one that is also close to the extraction point. Lastly, if you proc Shadowstrike via the AWC, enjoy picking up a consistent way to proc Kubikuri at the next rank. :twisted:
GSGT: Good balance.
-Multi-targeting serves as the capstone to a Holo build, allowing you to pile on the hurt to entire pods. Especially with Phantom and operating ahead of the main squad before the aliens scamper and spread out. Hunter's Instinct is a sizable boost in damage and truly works wonders with Serial. It even works at Squadsight rangers. Kubikuri is... debatable. You either love it or you hate it, which I think means it's fairly balanced (if still going through some teething issues regarding bugs). I personally tend to avoid it, but if I ever get a Shadowstrike Sniper, I plan on taking it with avengeance.
MSGT: Average balance.
-Serial remains the best of the three in most circumstances. Double Tap is easier to use, but has been nerfed from Long War 1 and cannot be used on different targets. It has a niche though, as it is better than Serial for murdering single tough and dangerous opponents. Alpha Mike Foxtrot is the weak spot on the tier, but ascends to god-tier viability the moment a Sharpshooter perks up either Rapid Reaction or Sentinel. I know this for a fact. My current campaign had a Sharpshooter win the lottery. She had Grazing Fire, Cool Under Pressure, and Rapid Reaction. Sure the rest of her AWC perks sucked, but it didn't matter. I retrained her for Long Watch and she became my single deadliest soldier in the playthrough. So yes, on it's own Alpha Mike Foxtrot's lousy. But the AWC can make it very good. And for that reason alone I think it's viable on the tree. Especially since it only needs either Sentinel OR Rapid Reaction to become very effective.

Summary:
-Again, I think Sharpshooters and Assaults are tied for best-balanced perk trees in the game at this point. Sharpshooters aren't ideal for every mission, but they are brutally effective within their niche. And, unlike Rangers, they have a build option for low-aim Squaddies. There's not much I would change on for Sharpshooters, barring perhaps a small buff to Precision Shot to work with Snapshot.

Ranger:
LCPL: Poor balance.
-This is one of the worst-balanced tiers, I feel. Walk Fire is an auto-pick at this tier, as it's a good utility tool for finishing off critically wounded enemies. Close and Personal is weak on Rangers, as they lack the mobility to make good use of it, and rarely have enemies end their turn in effective range. About it's only use for them is through the Sawn-off, but few things can survive a shot from that as is, let alone with Both Barrels. Covering Fire, meanwhile, holds the dubious honor of being an active detriment more often than a benefit. The only other perk that can truly claim to have a downside within the perk itself is Snapshot. But even that does not make a true comparison, as Snapshot is consistent, can be planned around, and most importantly is fully under the player's control. Covering Fire is rarely a perk I wished I had, and is frequently a perk I wished I didn't. It needs to have some form of buff to be desirable. Preferably through ignoring at least a small portion of the cover bonus.
CPL: Average balance.
-Locked On is fairly good for dedicated shooting rangers, and nearly always useful. Pump Action is more situational, but can be useful if you have a Ranger with well-above average mobility. I also got a Ranger my last playthrough that got Run & Gun, which made Pump Action quite effective. Suppression is generally best left to another class, but has a small role if you have the grave misfortune of getting a Ranger with piss-poor aim (the only class I feel is crippled by such, given the Holo-target path on Sharpshooters).
SGT: Great balance.
-Center Mass is better early-game, and some players prefer it regardless. Aggression scales more effectively into the lategame. Both provide respectable damage increases. Cool Under Pressure dramatically improves Overwatch and is a key component of the Overwatch build, arguably the Ranger's strongest.
SSGT: Below-average balance.
-Grazing Fire is another key element of the Overwatch build, making Rapid Reaction much more efficient. It is also useful for general shooting, as well. Fortify remains a good free-action defensive cooldown for emergencies, and has it's place. Executioner, however, feels quite weak on this tier. In practice, I found Grazing Fire eclipsed it both in reliability and in overall damage.
TSGT: Great balance.
-Bring 'em On is a great boost in damage to both crit builds and Overwatch builds. And increases in value in the late-game as pods increase is both size and number. Formidable is probably weaker overall, but is a good defensive perk and a key component in any tanking build that stacks armor. It also pairs fantastically with the Combat Awareness PCS, especially with a Threat Assessment specialist. I initially dismissed Ever Vigilant, but was eventually was shown how well it works on an Overwatch build as a form of mobility attack by running into a flank. That said, the perk is very finicky and buggy, with even free actions like Fortify or opening a door breaking its effect. As an added bonus, having this perk on the tree prevents Aim from rearing it's piece-of-shit head in the AWC.
GSGT: Good balance.
-Rapid Reaction is the capstone to an Overwatch build and brutally effective. Rapid Fire works well on a volume-of-fire Ranger, with excellent Synergy with Light 'em Up and Locked On. Tactical Sense remains one of the best defensive perks in the game, though I usually prefer more offensive options at this tier.
MSGT: Average balance.
-Rupture is a very powerful cooldown to help tear through especially tough and dangerous enemy. It's not good for clearing out the schmucks, but you'll be happy you have it when you run into Berserkers, Hive Queens, or Giant Psionic Golfballs. Combat Fitness is a good alternative choice I like to take on Rangers that I didn't pick other defensive perks for, as well as ones that got shafted on HP by NCE/Hidden Potential. Killzone, however, I find very lackluster at this tier. Overwatch builds will probably get as many shots simply by using Overwatch, and without relying on enemy positioning. Meanwhile shooty builds will probably prefer to finish their turn with Rapid Fire. That said, it's not useless, and it does provide a cooldown to spike your shots-per-turn.

Summary:
-Overall, Rangers have some flaws in their perk balance. Not as much as some classes, and they do have a good niche through Overwatch. However, their non-Overwatch builds could use a little boost in effectiveness. There's any number of ways to do this, but these are small buffs and adjustments that are needed, not sweeping reworks.

Shinobi:
LCPL: Good balance.
-Ghostwalker is amazing for stealthing missions. But has a cooldown and is limited in other uses, so it does not overshadow the other perks of this tier. Low Profile is a good defensive perk and the only real option for shooty Shinobi at this tier. Cutthroat is a bit of an odd one. It's not a bad perk, exactly. It's just odd for it to come so early, when most enemies do not yet have any armor in the first place. Still, the extra crit and crit damage is appreciable.
CPL: Poor balance.
-Lone Wolf one of the better perks for Shinobi to have, providing both offensive and defensive utility. Infighter is less useful for the simple fact that it is conditional in a way that is outside of the players control. It's not totally useless, but there's little need to take it unless you have the right set of base stats and AWC perks to try cheesing high dodge/armor and low defense. And I suspect that combination will eventually be nerfed. Shadowstep is also bit weaker then Lone Wolf. There are far more counters to Overwatch in LW2 than LW1 had. That said, it also allows you to walk out of Suppression, and I still take it on dedicated stealth/recon Shinobi as insurance against mistakes.
SGT: Below-average balance.
-Covert is essential for stealth builds, and an auto-pick for such builds. Hunter's Instincts is the keystone for shooty builds, and what allows them to deal significant damage in what is otherwise a nearly entirely defensive build. Blademaster, however, is rather poor. +1 damage and +10 aim for sword attacks is appreciable, but not really on the same level of benefit as its peers for their respective builds. In a vacuum, this would be fine, as the perks do not overlap and serve different builds. But given the problems with sword Shinobi, it's worth noting. (More in the summary.)
SSGT: Below-average balance.
-Shadowstrike is good. Though Shinobi lack the raw offensive power to truly abuse it in the way other classes can, they can also more reliably use it via innate Phantom. Evasive is very good as both insurance against a mistake and as a tanking tool with the proper setup (cheesing high armor and dodge to not take damage). However, it still drops from any damage, including aoe damage. So over-reliance will get a Shinobi killed. Bladestorm, meanwhile... is kinda crap. It takes very specific circumstances to proc, making it highly niche. And while I never have seen it happen, I've heard of Shinobi killing themselves by countering a Muton that then counters their counter. I think this may be a perk like Combatives: Too situational be useful without a minor stat boost.
TSGT: Great balance.
-Conceal is amazing for stealth builds, and always will be. It also pairs well with Shadowstrike. Hard Target is one of the best tanking perks in the game, and a damned good defensive perk in general. Coup de Grace exists on this tier as an offensive utility option. While not reliable, it can and will instantly kill some of the tougher enemies out there, and serves as a good fallback hail mary for an enemy that the Shinobi is otherwise not equipped to deal with. None of these perks feel absolutely must-pick, though Conceal probably wins out for general-purpose use.
GSGT: Good balance.
-Tradecraft cements the Shinobi's role as the go-to-pick for stealthing missions your rebels couldn't be arsed to spot in a reasonable amount of time. Tactical Sense is one of the best defensive perks in the game, and well worth picking up. Implacable is a bit harder to pin down. It provides much less sheer defensive power than Tactical Sense (especially paired with Lone Wolf to get obscene defensive ratings), but arguably more utility. And, because it does not increase defense, it does not interfere with tank builds relying on low defense/high dodge, which Shinobi have a great ability to stack.
MSGT: Good balance.
-Reaper is downright deadly, and works quite well even the absence of any other sword-related perks. I tended to use it as my default pick. The auto-hit on the first hit is a minor bonus, but worth noting. Serial is a strong alternative to Hunter's Instincts shooty builds, allowing the Shinobi to mop up pods. That said, they'll be less effective at this than other classes with Serial, owing to fewer offensive perks. I have heard of some people taking defense/dodge stacked Shinobi and just running into pods with a Shotgun and using Serial to great effect. Haven't tried it myself, yet. Rapid Fire is the weakest on this tier, but is consistent, can be used very turn, and provides the biggest single-target alpha strike damage of the three in combination with Shadowstrike. I took on my stealth Shinobi if I took Shadowstrike instead of Evasive, otherwise defaulting to Reaper.

Summary:
-I think Shinobi are in need of some small adjustments, but are generally in a good position. Their shooty build was initially derided, but I'm seeing more and more people claiming success with it, owing to the build's incredibly high defensive values allowing otherwise suicidal positioning. I intend to put it to greater use in my 1.3 playthrough.

Their stealth build is also well-polished and effective, though having at least 2-3 of them is nearly mandatory in the current meta of either stealthing missions or 10-manning them at 0%. I suspect that will fade a little as adjustments are made to make mid-size squads more viable.

That said, their Sword build currently suffered on three counts:
Firstly, the build's effectiveness does drop somewhat later in the game. Reaper's power spike not withstanding, their damage output doesn't rise as much as Assaults relative to the increasing durability of the aliens.
Secondly, upgrading their weapons is difficult, requiring some of the rarer corpses. Though thankfully the supply/alloy/elerium investment isn't too high. Although the Axe is HORRIFICALLY expensive to upgrade, especially since it gradually becomes a smaller upgrade. It initially boasts +2 damage over a sword at the cost of 5 aim. Fully upgraded, it loses 10 more aim in exchange for a single point of extra crit damage. 15 points of aim difference in late-game does have an impact.
Finally, there's the slight problem that, aside from Reaper, the Shinobi's sword perks aren't that big of an improvement to their damage. Choosing all three nets you: +10 aim, +1 damage, +2 crit damage, and +15% crit chance, while ignoring the armor of organic units and getting free counter-attacks from enemies in melee range. Speaking frankly, that's not that big a difference given Swords already have aim and crit bonuses, and a high base damage/crit damage. It adds up, don't get me wrong, but currently the difference between a dedicated sword build and a stealth build with Reaper is relatively small. And the stealth builds have much greater strategic utility, to boot.



TL;DR Sorry for the huge wall of text.

PS: Did an edit to clear out some typos now that I've slept. Shoulda proof-read the sucker before posting.
Last edited by Thrair on Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Clibanarius
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Clibanarius »

Don't apologize. The wall of text is really informative/interesting and laden with good intentions. Thanks for making it! I'll be reading all of it (Specialist done right now, agreed wholeheartedly on all the points within!) over the next few mission load times. :P
WildCard
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by WildCard »

Yeah i second that, it was a damm good read. I hope they show some love to sword shinobis and agree wholeheartedly to your thoughts on the concussion rocket !
Here`s hoping for 1.3
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johnnylump
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by johnnylump »

Good stuff Thrair. In testing I tried to put Revival Protocol at LPCL against Combat Protocol, but no one was having it.
Alketi
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Alketi »

The problem with CPL Specialist is not so much that Revival Protocol is too valuable or OP. I've actually taken Interference once or twice myself.

The real issue, IMO, is that Covering Fire is so utterly worthless. I can't think of a worse perk in the game. Why would anyone ever want to waste an overwatch shot, with its associated aim penalty, on an enemy that's guaranteed to be in cover?

Scenarios --

If the enemy is in the open, you shoot it and DON'T overwatch in the first place.
If it is in cover and you don't have the perk, your overwatch only triggers when it moves.
If it is in cover and you have this perk, then, and only then, do you overwatch-fire while it's still in cover (with an added aim penalty). Huh?

I'd find a way to remove Covering Fire from the game and create a more compelling perk in its place.
Last edited by Alketi on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clibanarius
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Clibanarius »

If Covering Fire negated cover bonuses on the target, that'd be enough, I think. Doubt it's possible, though, to make it like that.
dstar3k
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by dstar3k »

Clibanarius wrote:If Covering Fire negated cover bonuses on the target, that'd be enough, I think. Doubt it's possible, though, to make it like that.
What about if it lived up to its name -- and applied an aim penalty equal to Suppression to the unit that was fired at?
Elder_Basilisk
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Elder_Basilisk »

I think you are underestimating rapid fire as a shinobi perk. Yes, it takes a long time to get there, but when you do, it is very useful on stealth shinobi for two reasons:

1. Destroy the relay missions. The cheesy way to do this according to forum wisdom is to take a sharpshooter, have the shinobi spot, and shoot the relay from a hidden location.

In my experience, that is not a very reliable strategy. If it works, it's great but a lot of maps don't offer a good, out of the way spot to squad sight the relay from, or it is rather difficult to get to said spot because you approached the relay from southeast and the windows are all in the northwest. It can also take quite a while, especially in early-mid game. One sniper with a mag long rifle will typically take four shots. If he's a snap shot master sergeant with double tap, that's two rounds with a command from your shinobi officer but if he's not a snapshot build and/or doesn't have double tap, that's a lot of time to hope advent doesn't find him and you have to start fairly early to finish before the timer runs out.

On the other hand, pack a rapid shot shinobi with a shotgun and you can lay waste to the relay in a single round with command and you didn't need a specialized build to do it. All you need is a stealth shinobi with rapid shot.

2. Rapid shot also let's a shinobi have some semi decent offense if they are running around in a spotter/scout role on a combat mission. Serial is all or nothing. You either wipe a whole pod or graze on your first shot and wasted the perk. Reaper can likewise be underwhelming if you're not going to wipe a whole pod and tends to leave the shinobi exposed if it doesn't work out. Rapid shot, on the other hand packs a reasonable offensive punch that can be used from cover and can potentially contribute for several rounds of a firefight before reconcealed and resuming the scout role.

It is not as high impact as serial or reaper but is much more reliable and doesn't require special setup or exposure. Given that it also let's you clear relays quickly with a standard stealth build shinobi, it's my go to master sergeant perk.
Jacke
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Jacke »

johnnylump wrote:In testing I tried to put Revival Protocol at LPCL against Combat Protocol, but no one was having it.
The problem is Revival Protocol is so good it's likely to be picked over anything it's put against. I currently have 2 Specialist builds, medic and non-medic, and both take Revival Protocol because it is so pivotal when it is needed. Putting it against other highly needed perks will just be more frustrating.
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by trihero »

Most of the feedback I agree with, but you're just completely off the mark about offensive grenadiers. They are fine, they are great. I use them a lot. Boosted cores helps incendiary grenade quite a bit (it double dips in both the main damage, and also boosts the dot damage; so does biggest booms, so I can't even begin to understand why you say boosted cores doesn't help incendiary grenades). You require both sapper and combat engineer to reliably gank say, trees, and it helps a ton once you get to that point. There is no "heavy slant" towards hybrid/protector grenadiers. My offensive grenadiers use both incendiary and frags (3 frag 2 incendiary with heavy ordn), so I find plenty of use in all of the offensive perks. Incendiary grenades turn off even more things than flashbangs do and the damage is extremely respectable to outright disgusting.

Combat/sapper grenadiers are obscenely good at ripping out cover, way better than demotion on gunner, much more repeatable than technical rockets, etc. Their damage is also totally acceptable. People make the common mistake of saying the damage "falls off" against mkIII's, but frankly just about everything falls off against MKIIIs. Doing 9-10 average damage to MKIIIs goes about halfway to killing them, which is fine for 1 grenade, plus the cover destroying part and armor shredding. Don't forget that damage also contributes to control in the form of red fog.

There's one poster who said it best about grenadiers - if you build a defensive one, you feel the pain of not being able to remove cover or kill things. If you build an offensive one, you feel the pain of not having flashbang lockdown. I don't see a heavy slant towards one or the other. They both shine in very very different ways. In fact I prefer the combat ones because killing offending targets to me is the best kind of control and removing high cover + half their hp is well, pretty good.
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Bob_Green
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Bob_Green »

johnnylump wrote:Good stuff Thrair. In testing I tried to put Revival Protocol at LPCL against Combat Protocol, but no one was having it.
What about my proposition balancing Specialist ?

Short info:
1.Removed Covering Fire Perk.
2. Added Combat Fitness Perk instead
3. Moved some other perks.

Left Tree - Medic Tree
Middle Tree - Combat Medic/Operator
Right Tree - Drone Operator

Image

Full Combat Medic can heal from distance, restore stunned soldiers and keep them alive ( low speed soldiers, for long missions without timer)
Full Drone Operator can kill enemies and mechanical robots, support allies, cancel overwatches and hack towers without fail consequences. (good hacking skills)
Middle Tree add some combat skills for soldiers with good aim/speed/defense. A Specialist might be The Overwatch Specialist with some Medical skills f.e.
CUP + Field Medic + Ever Vigilant + Revival Protocol + Sentinel + Combat Fitness for emergency run to dying soldier, set an overwatch, deal some damage and save him from bleeding next turn.
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by LordYanaek »

Too late this evening to add a wall of text of my own :lol:

I think you overlook Overwatch Specialists. They have almost the same aim progression as ranger (only 4 points less) which is even reduced by overwatch eating 30% of that base aim. Sentinel and Rapid reaction are both good perks with pros and cons. Sure RR allows up to 3 shots but it craps out if the first enemy to move has lightning reflex or RNGesus doesn't like you today. OTOH Sentinel is 2 shots guaranteed. It's quite valuable. The Ranger might shoot and OW but the Specialist can Aid Protocol and OW so really both have their pros and cons.
Sentinel also makes Overwatch Specialists the only class who can actually benefit from the infamous Covering Fire. With Sentinel + Cool Under Pressure it's basically 2 normal shots against the enemies on their turn instead of only one on your turn. It might be useful in some edge cases but that's better than anyone else could say of CF. The biggest issue of CF is that until you get those later perks, it just makes you worse at your job, but that's what overwatch PCS are for.
trihero wrote: There's one poster who said it best about grenadiers - if you build a defensive one, you feel the pain of not being able to remove cover or kill things. If you build an offensive one, you feel the pain of not having flashbang lockdown. I don't see a heavy slant towards one or the other. They both shine in very very different ways. In fact I prefer the combat ones because killing offending targets to me is the best kind of control and removing high cover + half their hp is well, pretty good.
I would say that if you take a defensive grenadier you feel the pain of not being able to blow cover and if take an offensive grenadier you feel the pain of neither being able to control them nor remove cover until they reach MSgt. That's a long part of the game where the offensive grenadier doesn't really help you, sure they shine when they finally get Combat Engineer but prior to that they are good for blowing cardboard cover and nothing else :x
Needle is somewhat useful if you have some AWC perks to help on the crits but sapper looks like the worst perk available to the class. The only reason to take it is to combine it with CE much later but you just drag a dead perk until MSgt.

A gunner might only blow the cover of one guy but i'll take a guaranteed removal on 1 guy over a "maybe i'll get several of those guys exposed but more probably none" 200/100.

OTOH, creative builds like your fire-sniper are probably interesting but blowing cover is not a grenadiers job before MSgt
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Elder_Basilisk »

There's a lot of exaggeration on both sides in the grenadier debate.

The control difference between a support grenadier and a damage grenadier before sting grenades is: what kind of grenade gets a bonus use, whether you get a free action support grenade, and whether your flashbangs effect robots. A damage grenadier can carry as many as two flashbangs and while they don't have the ability to free action one of them (unless they take rapid reaction which is a completely valid choice for a damage grenadier) they do pretty much the same thing as the support grenadier until sting grenades show up.

Likewise, support grenadiers can take up to two damage grenades and can deliver air dropped damage grenades just fine. They don't destroy cover quite as well and don't do quite as much damage, but they're still useful to have and variant damage grenades like poison grenades can do a bit of both control and damage.
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Thrair »

trihero wrote:Most of the feedback I agree with, but you're just completely off the mark about offensive grenadiers. They are fine, they are great. I use them a lot. Boosted cores helps incendiary grenade quite a bit (it double dips in both the main damage, and also boosts the dot damage; so does biggest booms, so I can't even begin to understand why you say boosted cores doesn't help incendiary grenades). You require both sapper and combat engineer to reliably gank say, trees, and it helps a ton once you get to that point. There is no "heavy slant" towards hybrid/protector grenadiers. My offensive grenadiers use both incendiary and frags (3 frag 2 incendiary with heavy ordn), so I find plenty of use in all of the offensive perks. Incendiary grenades turn off even more things than flashbangs do and the damage is extremely respectable to outright disgusting.

Combat/sapper grenadiers are obscenely good at ripping out cover, way better than demotion on gunner, much more repeatable than technical rockets, etc. Their damage is also totally acceptable. People make the common mistake of saying the damage "falls off" against mkIII's, but frankly just about everything falls off against MKIIIs. Doing 9-10 average damage to MKIIIs goes about halfway to killing them, which is fine for 1 grenade, plus the cover destroying part and armor shredding. Don't forget that damage also contributes to control in the form of red fog.

There's one poster who said it best about grenadiers - if you build a defensive one, you feel the pain of not being able to remove cover or kill things. If you build an offensive one, you feel the pain of not having flashbang lockdown. I don't see a heavy slant towards one or the other. They both shine in very very different ways. In fact I prefer the combat ones because killing offending targets to me is the best kind of control and removing high cover + half their hp is well, pretty good.
It's not that Combat/Sapper Grenadiers are bad. They do excel at cover destruction. It's just that they take a very long time to come online, leading people to put greater emphasis on Protector/Hybrid builds. As you noted, Incendiaries are really strong right now (that's its own thread, right there).

That said, I did not know Boosted Cores increased the the DoT damage of Incendiaries. That's pretty significant, and thanks for pointing it out.

Also are you saying Biggest Booms applies to incendiary DoT damage as well? I never took it on my dedicated Incendiary/Acid specialists, only my Sapper specialists. (Or two per campaign at most). Because if Biggest Booms applies to DoT damage, that's a bug that'll need to be fixed, because it would be BROKEN with Bring 'em On (Which, again, I've never had the good fortune to see on a Grenadier thus far :cry: ). I mean, that'd triple or quadruple the burn damage. And fire is already damn sexy.
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by gimrah »

Great post with many well made points. I have a few counters though.

Lightning reflexes is great because you can clear OW without losing an action. This is very important for small squad missions like Jailbreaks, where pods activate and go into OW as you're trying to evac. If 1.3 achieves its objectives this will be amplified.

Shadowstep is similarly a key stealth perk, so you can get out safely having revealed.

The OW tree for specialists is great if you get one accidentally with good aim. They can dual role as mobile multishot and still hit hack objectives from range. This goes to a theme of pushing you into alternate builds for off stat soldiers, which I think is a fun design feature.

Same for close and personal and the sawn off tree for rangers.
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Tuhalu »

Like LordYanaek said, I think you are underestimating the value of an overwatch spec Specialist. With just Cool Under Pressure, Ever Vigilant and Sentinel, you get a guy that can run flat out and get 2 reaction shots that can crit at the end of it. Unlike Rapid Reaction, where missing a shot means the end of the reaction fire chain, you can miss the first shot and still get the second. It also means that if you are falling behind you can catch up and still contribute.

You even get to keep the best Specialist skills, which makes up for their slightly lower volume of fire. By which I mean Hack, Haywire Protocol, Revival Protocol, Air Drop Protocol, Threat Assessment and Full Override. With a little luck on Enemy Protocol successes, you'll barely even miss Failsafe.


On Killer Instinct, I think you may be misreading the effect. The effect is that you do 50% more damage when you land a critical while using run'n'gun. Not that you do 50% more of the crit bonus component. A crit stacking build with Killer Instinct and Street Sweeper can lead to some truly obscene crits.
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by stefan3iii »

Nice post! I agree with most of what you say, so I'll just write down my disagreements (L/I perspective)
1) Protector vs Heavy Ordinance. There is no contest here at all, take Heavy Ordinance, always. This is because every grenadier should be taking incendiary grenades, regardless if they're support or boom specced. Flashbangs and smokes are free, while fancy grenades like the incendiary are expensive, and so you actually get good value out of doubling it.

2) Specialist. I think Combat Protocol is auto pick, it's very strong early game, mediocre the rest of the game. On the other hand, healing is very weak in this game, I think I've used a medkit like twice in my LW2 career, shortly before I stopped bringing them because they aren't worth the equipment slot. Your soldiers shouldn't take wounds often, and in the very rare case where they take heavy wounds and are still alive it's fairly straight forward to keep them in high cover to avoid taking any more damage. That all said, it's pretty moot because the specialist has no place on combat missions outside of greedy skull mining and tower hacking, their damage output is just way too low to justify their 'ok' utility.

3) I think tac sense is really weak in every tier, for the same reason it was in LW1. It just means the aliens choose to shoot someone else.

4) I think Traverse is a little stronger on average than Saturation fire. I've built both, and I always regret it when I've brought the saturation gunner.

5) I think Serial on Sharpshooter is much stronger than the other two options, it's the strongest perk in the game.

6) I think Ghostwalker is auto pick, even for melee or pistol shinobis. Even when specced for damage they're going to spend half the mission acting as a scout. Low Profile is worthless (see tac sense, but even worse), and Cutthroat is really underwhelming as you're rarely ever going to rely on your melee weapon to be criting.
JoINrbs
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by JoINrbs »

Thoughts:

Revival Protocol: Yeah, way too strong.

Failsafe: I've never understood why people like this perk so much. The penalties for failing hacks are negligible, and generally you don't bother taking a hack action if you have a high chance of failing it anyway.

Lockdown: I think this is competitive with Hail of Bullets if not better right now. The problem with Hail is that you don't have to deal 7 damage very often in this game; you have to deal 12 a lot, and when you fail to deal 12 you have to deal 2-4 to finish enemies off. It's okay in the extremely early game but otherwise just so-so.

I don't agree that Gunners are a poorly balanced tree, I actually think they're one of the best trees in the game. In my current L/I campaign I've touched most of the perks on that tree in different builds and am having good success with an OW build that I'd never ended up on before because of how the stats and AWCs of that soldier developed.

Rapid Deployment: Yeah, way too strong.

Formidable: I think you're undervaluing this somewhat in general, especially when you're prioritizing an extra grenade on a grenadier over it.

Bluescreen Bombs: These aren't actually all that great, as Sting Grenades can stun robots even if you haven't taken them. I go Center Mass for high-aim Grenadiers who are going to hybridize into Pistol AWCs or Boosted Cores for DoT boosts.

Dense Smoke is possibly the most broken perk in the game right now.

I think Grenadier trees are actually very static right now because of how bonkers OP Sting Grenades, Dense Smoke, and Incendiary Grenades are. There's no reason to build them for anything except using those (with the exception of Formidable, which is also extremely strong) and even if you get high aim you just want Pistol perks, not the perks on their actual tree. Hopefully everything I just listed will get nerfed though :D

You're misevaluating Sapper and Combat Engineer somewhat. Cover in this game usually has 5, 10, or 20hp, so Combat Engineer by itself doesn't really do much that Sapper doesn't already do (both kill 10hp cover, Combat Engineer is slightly better at doing so on edges).

"Electroshock meanwhile is stupidly good" - whaaaat.

Lethal is really really really good on Assaults. Assaults can shoot six times in a turn without even needing CCS: https://clips.twitch.tv/NastyGiftedLlamaANELE - an extra 12 damage in a turn is sort of nice.

Assaults are currently the strongest class in the game imo, I don't personally think it's very close, although Sharpshooters might give them a run for their money in an appropriate squad composition.

I take Close and Personal on Rangers fairly regularly. Crit chance is pretty good and dealing small amounts of damage isn't something you need a ton of. If I'm taking Walk Fire on a Ranger it's with the expectation that they end up in a Haven, if I'm taking C+P it's with the expectation that they train pistol perks and come on missions which matter.

In general I hate Ranger trees with a passion right now. I think people massively overestimate the true strength of the "upside down" OW build; you want a build to make your soldier strong early, not a build which makes your soldier strong once they hit GSGT. Other than that they're a class which can deal a little damage if they get blessed with a ton of aim but can't ever keep up with the punishment Sharpshooters and Assaults are dishing out.

I didn't read the Shinobi balance feedback xD
Bu6613man
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Bu6613man »

JoINrbs wrote:Thoughts:
Failsafe: I've never understood why people like this perk so much. The penalties for failing hacks are negligible, and generally you don't bother taking a hack action if you have a high chance of failing it anyway.
Hi, I'm a fan. Just jumping in to mention why I like Failsafe so much. I almost always take it because it prevents being revealed on a failed hack (of a tower or robot). My specialists are very often in situations where they are waiting in stealth. Either for an shinobi to do some more scouting, or for the evac timer to tick down. Failsafe often acts like a no-risk free intel/supply buff, like collector. Normally it would be too dangerous to try for these rewards, but with failsafe there is no danger.

As an added benefit, hacking a tower successfully shuts it's detection radius down, so you can occasionally open up better routes for your shinobi. I've even hacked turrets, shut them down, and then had my shinobi walk right by.
JoINrbs
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by JoINrbs »

Bu6613man wrote:
JoINrbs wrote:Thoughts:
Failsafe: I've never understood why people like this perk so much. The penalties for failing hacks are negligible, and generally you don't bother taking a hack action if you have a high chance of failing it anyway.
Hi, I'm a fan. Just jumping in to mention why I like Failsafe so much. I almost always take it because it prevents being revealed on a failed hack (of a tower or robot). My specialists are very often in situations where they are waiting in stealth. Either for an shinobi to do some more scouting, or for the evac timer to tick down. Failsafe often acts like a no-risk free intel/supply buff, like collector. Normally it would be too dangerous to try for these rewards, but with failsafe there is no danger.

As an added benefit, hacking a tower successfully shuts it's detection radius down, so you can occasionally open up better routes for your shinobi. I've even hacked turrets, shut them down, and then had my shinobi walk right by.
that makes some sense on a specialist who cares about small squad missions. i think if we did math with reasonable estimates of value the wound time reduction from field surgeon would be considerably better output in large squads though.

a lot of the time you can just hack while waiting for the evac zone to be placed after breaking stealth. i make stupid mistakes on stealth missions fairly regularly but i still feel like i'm getting most of these hack rewards that i'd be getting with failsafe without needing it.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Saph7 »

Failsafe is far and away the best pick for stealth Specialists because it's very, very common for your Specialist/Shinobi stealth team to spot a lamppost while sneaking through the map. Without Failsafe, you're going to look at it and think "is it worth taking a 30% (or whatever) chance on failing the mission just to get an Alloy or Supply cache?" And the answer is pretty much always going to be no. With Failsafe, you get a no-risk shot at an extra reward and can shut off the lamppost's detection zone as a bonus. I don't see why you'd ever take anything else if your Specialist's mostly doing stealth ops.

For a combat Specialist the choice is harder, but I find it's quite common that you're at the beginning of your turn facing down a lot of enemies and trying to decide "do I want to hack this Heavy MEC/Hunter Drone/Sectopod or should I just kill it?" With Failsafe, you can go for the high-risk option and if you miss, then oh well – you're out an action and now you have to kill it. Without Failsafe, you still have to kill it, except now it's got +10 defence. That is REALLY annoying on something like a Sectopod. It's hard to measure that against the wound reduction time of Field Surgeon, but I don't think it's an automatic choice.
Antigonos
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by Antigonos »

Since Revival Protocol will always be the strongest choice, why not make it a basic specialist ability? So the perk could be easily changed to "reduce Revival Protocol 's cooldown" or "Revival Protocol gains x charges".
LordYanaek
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by LordYanaek »

JoINrbs wrote: You're misevaluating Sapper and Combat Engineer somewhat. Cover in this game usually has 5, 10, or 20hp, so Combat Engineer by itself doesn't really do much that Sapper doesn't already do (both kill 10hp cover, Combat Engineer is slightly better at doing so on edges).
Just want to jump in (once again) to say how little i value Sapper but also explain why as I really think it's useless until you get Combat Engineer.

I'll trust your values and others i read in this forum (probably from Trihero who did a lot of ini digging). Cover is 5-10-20 HP. Grenades do 9, sapper does 3, CE 8. Environmental damage is randomized by 20%. This gives us :
  • Base Grenade 7.2 - 10.8 damage : Destroy light cover, small chance to destroy medium cover, does nothing against hard cover.
  • Sapper Grenade 9.6 - 14.4 damage : Destroy light cover, has a good chance to destroy medium cover, does nothing against hard cover.
  • CE Grenade 13.6-20.4 damage : Destroy light and medium cover, small chance against hard cover.
  • CE + Sapper 16-24 damage : Destroy light and medium cover, average chance against hard cover.
Sapper only gives you better chance against medium cover or together with CE against hard cover. OK, it's not that bad especially once you get CE but it's wayyyy late compared to when you took sapper. In the meantime you merely have a better chance against medium cover without even having a guarantee you destroy those.
Now consider the fact that without CE enviro dmg falls off from the point of impact. I don't know the exact formula but from what i observed you can only somewhat reliably destroy the cover on the center tile of the explosion if it's medium cover (and won't do anything to hard cover). As a result :
  • I have to center the grenade on the exact tile i want to destroy which tends to be annoying as grenades snap to units when there is one near the mouse cursor, and of course if you want to destroy the cover you are on the adjacent tile. This can be removed by some free aiming mods but it's an annoyance.
  • More importantly i can only really hope to destroy one tile of medium cover. If i want to do single tile cover destruction why use a grenade in the first place when a Gunner can use Demolition to remove even hard cover very reliably. Sure Demolition is a Sgt ability but as soon as you get to that rank Sapper becomes a useless perk until you reach MSgt and it takes much more time to go from Sgt to Msgt than from LCpl to Sgt.
This is really the core of the issue. Grenadier can't really do AoE cover removal until they get Combat Engineer, it's the Technical's job, and Gunners are better at single tile cover removal. Sapper thus sits there waiting for CE to unlock it's true potential and leaving you with an early weak(er) soldier. To use your own words, it's an "upside down" build that will make you strong in the late game rather than early (and even later than an overwatch build). Of course it's only a single perk but i find it hard to justify taking it over Rapid Deployment or even needle grenade if you plan to blow enemies which the grenadier does well early (even if needle becomes moot by the mid-game without Bring em on from the AWC)
hewhoispale
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by hewhoispale »

stefan3iii wrote:Nice post! I agree with most of what you say, so I'll just write down my disagreements (L/I perspective)
...
2) Specialist. I think Combat Protocol is auto pick, it's very strong early game, mediocre the rest of the game. On the other hand, healing is very weak in this game, I think I've used a medkit like twice in my LW2 career, shortly before I stopped bringing them because they aren't worth the equipment slot. Your soldiers shouldn't take wounds often, and in the very rare case where they take heavy wounds and are still alive it's fairly straight forward to keep them in high cover to avoid taking any more damage. That all said, it's pretty moot because the specialist has no place on combat missions outside of greedy skull mining and tower hacking, their damage output is just way too low to justify their 'ok' utility.
...
Specifically to some of this, but in general to the anti-medical protocol folks in general:

Disclaimer, not playing on Legendary. I'm not that great a player, but I find perks like medical protocol are useful to offset my mistakes and keep things from spiraling even worse. I also feel that the massive boost drones get on legendary early game changes the math.
Are you playing with red fog? Do you find that red fog increases the value of medkits and by extension medical protocol? I've found the couple of healing charges useful to offset the injury penalties, especially on my aim-reliant soldiers.
LordYanaek
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Re: [Feedback] 1.2 Perk Tree: Tier balance (Wall of Text Warning)

Post by LordYanaek »

hewhoispale wrote:Do you find that red fog increases the value of medkits and by extension medical protocol? I've found the couple of healing charges useful to offset the injury penalties, especially on my aim-reliant soldiers.
Of course Red Fog increases the value of Medical Protocol and healing generally. The trick is that Combat Protocol is really a nice multi purpose tool so some players just accept to heal soldiers "the old way" and will give a medikit to anyone with Field Medic (it's not uncommon from the AWC) which frees the specialist from the dedicated medic job and allows room for CP.
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