AWC Balance

Ithuriel
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

AWC Balance

Post by Ithuriel »

I... honestly don't know how to use the AWC. Like, sure, you can potentially get some variety from it. But frankly? I feel like LW2 has significantly less content than LW1, and I think a large part of that is that I feel the AWC doesn't usefully contribute much. Like, I have Biggest Booms on half my shooty soldiers, which is vaguely depressing. I'm worried that it'd be too overpowered if I were to reveal the AWC tree, but as is I feel the AWC is a randomized heap of annoyance.

Beyond the first perks which show up in Offense and Defense for each soldier, it's a total crapshoot what you will find next. All three of my main snipers have explosive perks at the first or second rank, and the only way I can find out if a soldier has a useful perk beyond what's visible is by spending 4 or 8 days training something useless and praying that I get lucky.

In summary, I feel like showing the AWC perks would severely imbalance the game, but as is, without them shown, it feels frustratingly like a lottery.
Bu6613man
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Bu6613man »

Honestly, it sounds like you just got really unlucky. I wouldn't count the AWC out from this set of bad rolls. However, since there is already a ton of RNG in LW2, I totally get the impulse to want to get rid of RNG that feels unfair or forced.

I've been thinking of revealing my AWC perks, but I figure that if I increase the time it takes to train them it should be possible to keep the balance similar. I haven't actually done any INI stuff yet, so that also makes me a little hesitant.
Ithuriel
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Ithuriel »

Bu6613man wrote:Honestly, it sounds like you just got really unlucky. I wouldn't count the AWC out from this set of bad rolls. However, since there is already a ton of RNG in LW2, I totally get the impulse to want to get rid of RNG that feels unfair or forced.

I've been thinking of revealing my AWC perks, but I figure that if I increase the time it takes to train them it should be possible to keep the balance similar. I haven't actually done any INI stuff yet, so that also makes me a little hesitant.
I certainly considered this possibility; that said, I had the same result with my last campaign. Thinking about it, the only really exciting perk that I got was Shredder on one of my Rangers. Apart from that I've had a smattering of ok-ish perks; Deadeye on one Gunner and one Sharpshooter, Damned Good Ground on a ranger, the odd Smoker or Flashbanger perk, and... that's just about it, frankly. Had a Specialist pick up Low Profile/Shredder, which isn't bad. But honestly, neither this campaign or last gave me anything special to change how I use a soldier. I'm chock-full of Rangers with Covert, Snipers with Bigger Booms, etc. :\ Literally the Shredder Ranger is the only AWC perk that's changed how I used a soldier. Do other people have better luck?

I acknowledge there are plenty of powerful perks that can show up, like Rupture. But frankly, even if a few of my soldiers have Rupture, I can't find out without 12 days of AWC time, and I have above 40 soldiers... I mean even something basic like Cool under Presure has never shown up, although I've had 2 Assaults and 2 Shinobis roll Covering Fire, as well as 2 Grenadiers and a Technical rolling Executioner... Q.Q
aedn
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by aedn »

Ithuriel wrote:I... honestly don't know how to use the AWC. Like, sure, you can potentially get some variety from it. But frankly? I feel like LW2 has significantly less content than LW1, and I think a large part of that is that I feel the AWC doesn't usefully contribute much. Like, I have Biggest Booms on half my shooty soldiers, which is vaguely depressing. I'm worried that it'd be too overpowered if I were to reveal the AWC tree, but as is I feel the AWC is a randomized heap of annoyance.

Beyond the first perks which show up in Offense and Defense for each soldier, it's a total crapshoot what you will find next. All three of my main snipers have explosive perks at the first or second rank, and the only way I can find out if a soldier has a useful perk beyond what's visible is by spending 4 or 8 days training something useless and praying that I get lucky.

In summary, I feel like showing the AWC perks would severely imbalance the game, but as is, without them shown, it feels frustratingly like a lottery.
if you dont want to show the perks then just remove some of them like biggest booms. you can edit them out in the awcperks config file.

personally, given how much more impact that the AWC has on builds, i find that showing them is a valid option. you still have to make a choice of perk selection, and honestly having them hidden does not really do anything but penalize players at times.
LordYanaek
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by LordYanaek »

What i do is reveal them and double the required rank to train each perk (so i need TSgt to train the lvl3 AWC perks).
Honestly i really don't get why they are hidden. The AWC exists to allow more variety in soldier builds but how can you go for a creative build if you don't know what perks are available. Fishing for high level perks not only is a lottery but can give you perks that totally don't fit the current build which means another long tube time to retrain the soldier :x

If some perks are too strong and the devs fear they will imbalance the game if too many soldiers have those, either remove them completely or use some weighting system so that they don't show as often but get rid of that AWC lottery!
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Saph7 »

I just did some ini editing to reveal them for my last campaign. Made the game much more fun. It's a huge letdown to spend 8 days training something mediocre just to find that the level 3 perk is something completely useless.
Tuhalu
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Tuhalu »

Yeah, the balance of the game isn't on such a razors edge that knowing whether or not the tier 2 and 3 perks are any good is a huge game breaker. Going for tier 3s means you have another character without a tier 1 and a tier 2. Getting two tier 3s on a 10 man A team takes more time than you have in the whole campaign.
Alketi
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Alketi »

Biggest Booms shows up constantly on Sharpshooters. Same for Volatile Mix. Clearly they're OP, though they seem absent from all the balance discussions.

However, revealing all the perks is immeasurably more powerful than the current implementation. Consider leveling your Sharpshooter through Biggest Booms and Volatile Mix to get him LETHAL. You'd likely only do that if you knew the entire list.

Personally, I prefer to be disappointed in the AWC perks in the order that Pavonis intended.
LordYanaek
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by LordYanaek »

Alketi wrote: However, revealing all the perks is immeasurably more powerful than the current implementation. Consider leveling your Sharpshooter through Biggest Booms and Volatile Mix to get him LETHAL. You'd likely only do that if you knew the entire list.
Well, yes by revealing the AWC perks you can actually choose to take useless perks on a soldier in order to access a good T3 perk or choose several immediately useful T1 and T2 perks on several soldiers (you could train 2 soldiers with T1+T2 or 4 soldiers with a useful T1 in the same time you got one T3 skill and 2 useless perks in the way). In the same time i could also train some very useful pistol perks. That's what i call a strategic choice. Do i want one really strong perk or 4 good ones? Which one is the best choice? All interesting considerations rather than just pick whatever you see at low tier and go full pistol on everyone else.
However, as i'm perfectly aware that being able to quickly select which soldier to train to get strong perks, i increased the required rank for all perks so now there is no way i can end up with a MSgt perk at Cpl rank due to sheer luck but i can plan how to build my soldiers.

Having T3 perks, several being MSgt perks available at Cpl rank is another non-sense for me anyway. It's way too strong when you get a good late build perk this early and hiding them does nothing to balance this, it just makes it random. Random ≠ Balanced
Personally, I prefer to be disappointed in the AWC perks in the order that Pavonis intended.
As you said you would never go through useless perks just to see what's ahead. I doubt Pavonis intention was to code T3 perks and make sure nobody trains them ;)
stefan3iii
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by stefan3iii »

Did you start your campaign in 1.2? There was a bugfix that was supposed to reduce the frequency of useless grenade perks in the AWC.
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by chrisb »

I did some analysis of the AWC perks and here are some of the results with some commentary on different parts.

I would rank order of priority for training in the AWC to go Defense > Pistol > Offense for most classes.

TLDR - Bring back Tac Rigging, make the Offense perks more varied and more exclusive to the AWC to avoid clashing with class perks.

The defense tree is pretty good. There's a wide variety of perks available to each class. And pretty much all of the perks offer some value to each class. Classes that have some of these perks still have a wide variety of options available and can even leave you with a class that is a supertank if you pick their own tanky perks and roll well here. The perks are mostly a mix of dodge, defense, reaction fire and stealth with a few utility perks like Rapid Deployment, Flashbanger and Smoke Grenade. While there are probably some tweaks that could be made, overall I think there's a lot of usefulness here for every class.

Pistol perks are ok if not a little bit OP with certain combinations of other perks or even on their own. It seems like people are starting to figure out that pistols alone can almost break the tactical layer, especially when combined with certain class perks. I suspect these may get nerfed to the ground once people start experimenting more and start breaking the tactical layer with them.

The Offense tree however is a different monster. There are two reasons for this, grenade perks and the class + custom restrictions that exist for specific perks. There are a whole bunch of these, and they tend to be exclusive from each other. Serial, Chain Shot, Traverse Fire, Light'em Up, Rapid Fire, Double Shot, Death From Above, Hit and Run, Implacable and Close Encounters. They are not all mutually exclusive from each other, but there are many restrictions on them that exclude most/all from some classes. This mostly effects the Tier 3 perks as this is where most of them exist with the exception of Chain Shot on Tier 2.

I put together a table that breaks down the perks into 3 categories for each class at each level. Non Grenade, Grenade and Restricted.

Code: Select all

+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Class        | Level 1  | Level 2  | Level 3  | Total    | Grenade % |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Assault      | 12/5/6   |  9/4/8   |  5/2/13  | 26/11/27 | 29/30/28  |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Grenadier    | 16/0/7   | 13/0/8   | 15/0/5   | 44/11/9  | 0/ 0 /0   |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Gunner       | 12/5/6   | 10/4/7   | 7/2/11   | 29/11/24 | 29/28/22  |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Gunner 2     | 10/7/6   | 8/6/7    | 6/3/11   | 24/16/24 | 41/42/33  | (Includes Sword Perks w/ Grenades)
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Ranger       | 9/5/9    | 6/4/11   | 8/2/10   | 23/11/30 | 35/40/20  |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Sharpshooter | 9/5/9    | 7/4/10   | 4/2/14   | 20/11/33 | 35/36/33  |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Shinobi      | 14/5/4   | 14/4/3   | 10/2/8   | 38/11/15 | 26/22/16  |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Specialist   | 16/5/2   | 15/4/2   | 17/2/1   | 48/11/5  | 23/21/10  |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
| Technical    | 15/5/4   | 13/4/3   | 14/2/4   | 42/11/11 | 25/23/12  |
+--------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+-----------+
I included a second row for Gunner as the numbers bump up quite a bit higher if your like me and consider Sword perks on a Gunner to be sort of odd if not bad. Using Fleche with a Gunner seems like a great way to get a Gunner killed.

One interpretation of this table that I had was, the classes that have the least use of grenades have the highest chance to get them, and the classes that have the most use of grenades have the least chance to get them. Not only that but the classes that could actually use grenades might actually get a powerful DPS option that isn't really that valuable to them since they have so little other offense to synergize with. Specialist is a great example. Typically low aim selection and the lowest aim progression in the game. Getting Cyclic Fire on someone who can't shoot feels like your being trolled!

The reason I think grenade perks are so bad isn't so much that grenades themselves, or their perks are bad. It's the lack of utility slots available to soldiers that makes it a hard sell to take a grenade over other more valuable options, even if you roll these perks. With the loss of Tactical Rigging in LW2 (in LW1 you could get 4 utility slots). Ranger/Gunner/Assault/Sniper basically require Plate/Ammo at least unless you like wounds and lower damage on your troops that deal damage! That leaves the vest which is basically mandatory for frontline troops. Snipers would usually prefer a pistol for a move/shoot option, or to combine with DFA as the second action sometimes.

Bringing back Tactical Rigging would actually solve a lot of this. It would allow classes that have no budge in their utility slots to actually have some and these perks wouldn't feel so useless.

Also I think if there were more varied options that were unique perks to the AWC then it would feel more useful. This could involve removing certain perks from some classes that are generally lackluster when having to choose them. One example off the top of my head is Grazing Fire. It's typically competing against much more powerful perks in the class tree. But as an AWC exclusive perk it would feel like a nice grab for any class.
Last edited by chrisb on Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jacke
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Jacke »

chrisb wrote:Bringing back Tactical Rigging would actually solve a lot of this. It would allow classes that have no budge in their utility slots to actually have some and these perks wouldn't feel so useless.
To this end, I include the mod Tactical Rigging: Ammo and Grenades, config it to have all classes get an Ammo Pocket and a Grenade Slot at Squaddie, and mod the Ammo items to have no mobility penalty. It seems ridiculous to have so many items yet make it so hard not only to unlock them but also hard for XCOM to carry them in the field. I wish this would be stock in LW2.
User avatar
3tamatulg
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by 3tamatulg »

I reveal the perks too.

It's SO much more fun being able to see what's coming up at higher levels, because that's where the perks start to get really interesting.
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by chrisb »

It seems like a lot of people are using the reveal perk option. Might be useful to at least put it in the options menu to make it more convenient for those that want that but don't know enough about ini hacking.
ndessell
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by ndessell »

Ithuriel wrote:I... honestly don't know how to use the AWC. Like, sure, you can potentially get some variety from it. But frankly? I feel like LW2 has significantly less content than LW1, and I think a large part of that is that I feel the AWC doesn't usefully contribute much. Like, I have Biggest Booms on half my shooty soldiers, which is vaguely depressing. I'm worried that it'd be too overpowered if I were to reveal the AWC tree, but as is I feel the AWC is a randomized heap of annoyance.

Beyond the first perks which show up in Offense and Defense for each soldier, it's a total crapshoot what you will find next. All three of my main snipers have explosive perks at the first or second rank, and the only way I can find out if a soldier has a useful perk beyond what's visible is by spending 4 or 8 days training something useless and praying that I get lucky.

In summary, I feel like showing the AWC perks would severely imbalance the game, but as is, without them shown, it feels frustratingly like a lottery.
It isnt nearly as op as you would think. you will get 2-3 broken combos, a few neat trick builds, some rank 2 or rank 3 wonders and a lot of duds.
Jadiel
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Jadiel »

chrisb wrote:It seems like a lot of people are using the reveal perk option. Might be useful to at least put it in the options menu to make it more convenient for those that want that but don't know enough about ini hacking.
I think the problem with doing that is that it does significantly increase the power level of XCOM without any benefit to the aliens at all (unlike other options like Red Fog). If you want to make the game easier using .ini edits, you're welcome to do so, but there needs to be a base line to balance from.
DerAva
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by DerAva »

I just can't follow the reasoning that revealing or not revealing the AWC perks has any impact on their power. Having them hidden doesn't make the ability any less powerful, it just makes getting that ability luck based. The goal shouldn't be to have overpowered inaccessible abilities but rather balanced accessible ones.
Having them revealed also gives a better balance between different players. If players A and B both gamble and train "Biggest Booms" for their Gunner, hoping to unlock something useful further down the tree, and player A gets Salvo and Volatile Mix as followups while player B gets Run'n'Gun and Lethal, then that's obviously a huge difference and increases the difficulty of balancing the game.

XCOM is at its best when you make interesting and meaningful decisions, and in order to make these decisions you need to have information. With hidden AWC perks you are not making decisions, you are gambling, and I think the system is too good to turn it into a gamble.
Saph7
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Saph7 »

DerAva wrote:XCOM is at its best when you make interesting and meaningful decisions, and in order to make these decisions you need to have information.
Pretty much this. I find the choice of 'do I train up 12 days of useless perks in order to train 12 days for a really good perk?' an interesting one. 'Do I train 4 days for a useless perk to gamble on an 8-day useful perk?' is much less interesting since it's just pure RNG.

I'm pretty sure that if you're playing with hidden AWC perks and have mediocre to bad perks in the level 1 slots, then the optimal decision is always just to train up pistol perks instead, since they're pretty OP in sufficient numbers and you're always guaranteed to get the good ones.
Tuhalu
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Tuhalu »

The argument seems to be that knowing about an "OP" ability at tier 3 past 2 rubbish abilities is more valuable than taking 6 level 1 skills or 2 level 1 skills and 2 level 2 skills that you actually wanted.

You can only train 12 level 3 skills before the end of december, which is around the time you should be winning the game. This is without training any pistol skills, which are garaunteed to be a bit OP right now (because of all the free attacks you get).

In any case, you bring 12 guys to Waterworld. At best, each of them can have 3 AWC trained skills (either defensive or offensive) if you choose to go after only level 3 skills. Assuming none of them died in the whole campaign and you never trained anyone else.

Also, long training times in the AWC mean you have soldiers that you can't use for almost an entire month just to get a level 3 ability. That may be an OK investment or it might not. IMO, that question is more useful to answer than gambling or not gambling.
Jadiel
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Jadiel »

DerAva wrote:XCOM is at its best when you make interesting and meaningful decisions, and in order to make these decisions you need to have information. With hidden AWC perks you are not making decisions, you are gambling, and I think the system is too good to turn it into a gamble.
I see this misconception a lot. One of the main ways to make decision-making interesting is withhold perfect information from the player. That's why there is a fog of war. That's why the hit mechanic is random. That's why procedural maps with random pod placement are better than having fixed ones where you know where the aliens will be.

It's also why poker is a better game than tic-tac-toe. I can understand that the player wants more information, or that they feel uncomfortable making decisions without perfect information. But that doesn't make those decisions interesting, it makes them easy. It's just not true that increasing the amount of information available to the player necessarily improves a game.

If AWC perks are revealed, it's pretty easy for me to write an algorithm for which ones I want. For a given class, I can make a list of desirable perks, and how much time I'm willing to train for each of them, and then apply that to my game. I can also (to a degree) plan my playthrough around certain Lvl 3 AWC/class combinations, as I can roll classes until I get the perk I want. Both of these things make decisions in the game less interesting, as I know everything at the start, and don't need to respond new information as it arrives. With hidden perks, it's much harder to 'solve' the decisions in advance, as there are far more unknowns, and you have to make decisions with less information about their consequences.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Saph7 »

Jadiel wrote:With hidden perks, it's much harder to 'solve' the decisions in advance, as there are far more unknowns, and you have to make decisions with less information about their consequences.
Actually, with hidden perks, I'm pretty sure the way you 'solve' the decisions is "train good perks if available, otherwise train pistols". On average, the value of two pistol perks is going to be greater than the value of one bad offence/defence perk plus one random offence/defence perk. So the optimal use of resources is always going to be to train a ton of pistol soldiers. This results in less decision-making, not more.
TheCiroth
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by TheCiroth »

I play with the AWC perks shown, because frankly I would never use the AWC otherwise. It seems like 99% of the time, the T1 perks are so worthless to the troop that it is not worth the gamble otherwise. While I can see why some testers thought it was OP to have it shown so you know who to train, not having it cheapens the AWC down the point where its almost a worthless building for me. The healing time is really why I chose to build it first which is where its real value is.

In my current commander run, it is almost January and I have very few level 3 AWC trained guys. Honestly most of the perks are meh at best anyway, it really isn't as OP as everyone seems to think. Even a shadowstrike faceoff Shinobi is not that good. Gauss pistol does 9 Damage IF it hits and IF it crits almost doesn't make it worth it. I've got a techs with Covert which makes him worth a bit more but not really. I have a ranger with Shredder which makes it a bit OP but really that was the only one that I felt was really worth diving for.

Also with any military, you have a training program and you will have a plan to train anyone. It makes more sense from a thematic perspective to have it on.
Jadiel
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Jadiel »

Saph7 wrote:Actually, with hidden perks, I'm pretty sure the way you 'solve' the decisions is "train good perks if available, otherwise train pistols". On average, the value of two pistol perks is going to be greater than the value of one bad offence/defence perk plus one random offence/defence perk. So the optimal use of resources is always going to be to train a ton of pistol soldiers. This results in less decision-making, not more.
You might be right, but if that's the case I'd expect to see everyone training pistol perks. However, in fact there's very little discussion of pistol perks at all (and far more discussion of different Off/Def perks), and I see pistol perks being trained and used rarely on streams, and rarely mentioned in campaign feedback. Even in this thread (which is all about AWC balance), pistol perks have hardly been mentioned.

So I don't think that 'solving' the AWC is as simple as that. In my personal experience of the game, the algorithm you're proposing doesn't match what seem to me to be the best decisions, and the value of potential 'good perks' further down the tree does seem to be an important thing to consider when deciding who and what to train.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by Saph7 »

Jadiel wrote:You might be right, but if that's the case I'd expect to see everyone training pistol perks. However, in fact there's very little discussion of pistol perks at all (and far more discussion of different Off/Def perks), and I see pistol perks being trained and used rarely on streams, and rarely mentioned in campaign feedback. Even in this thread (which is all about AWC balance), pistol perks have hardly been mentioned.
I think that's just because people haven't caught on yet. If you watch JoINrbs' most recent stream, he maxed out pistols on all of his A-team and it was pretty effective. Certainly far more effective than training up hidden level 2/3 perks that are usually going to be somewhere between average and useless.

People pay a lot of attention to those level 3 Off/Def perks, and when they get that perfect combo they talk about it a lot, but I don't think they actually make that big a difference.
LordYanaek
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Re: AWC Balance

Post by LordYanaek »

Jadiel wrote:I think the problem with doing that is that it does significantly increase the power level of XCOM without any benefit to the aliens at all (unlike other options like Red Fog).
So why is there a Red Fog (Aliens Only) option?
Now that's something that really makes the game easier unlike revealing AWC perks!
If some perks are too strong, just get rid of them. Gaining those skills in a lottery doesn't make them more balanced!
There is already enough randomness in the fact that the perks available are randomized, i don't see the point of hiding them in addition.

I'm really not sure spending all your GTS time to train a single class (say sharpshooter) until you have one with Lethal is really a good idea either. You're likely to miss other soldiers long before that point. A lot of the comments that support hiding them here seem to be along the line of "It's too strong if you see them because you can build some super soldiers for the end of the game". This completely ignores the fact that once you enter waterworld, you have already won the game whether you have 12 super soldiers with Lethal each or an entire B-team with no AWC perks at all! You need to survive until that point thought, and to do this you need several squads capable of responding to different missions while A-team is busy infiltrating a big objective. Putting all your eggs in the same basket to train those uber-skills is likely to leave you with weaker B-C-D teams and probably won't make the game easier until you have basically already won anyway.
TheCiroth wrote:While I can see why some testers thought it was OP to have it shown so you know who to train, not having it cheapens the AWC down the point where its almost a worthless building for me.
It's not worthless at all, the pistol perks are very good and probably better than going for Lethal after 2 crappy perks.
Not showing the perks simply reduces our options and makes pistol perks the obvious choice most of the time.
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