AWC Balance

[Jadiel]

I think that's just because people haven't caught on yet. If you watch JoINrbs' most recent stream, he maxed out pistols on all of his A-team and it was pretty effective. Certainly far more effective than training up hidden level 2/3 perks that are usually going to be somewhere between average and useless.

People pay a lot of attention to those level 3 Off/Def perks, and when they get that perfect combo they talk about it a lot, but I don't think they actually make that big a difference.

Fair enough - I haven't watched any of his most recent campaign past the early midgame. If that's the case though, maybe it says more about the relative strength of Pistol perks than about the merits of revealing AWC perks.

[TheCiroth]

It's not worthless at all, the pistol perks are very good and probably better than going for Lethal after 2 crappy perks.
Not showing the perks simply reduces our options and makes pistol perks the obvious choice most of the time.

I find the pistol to be lackluster at best. Most of the time, it doesn't hit. Pistols takes a slot that I could use for other gear. Faceoff? That's an ok one but mostly not worth trying for as most of the time its the last on the tree. Really the only perk worth taking on the tree. Lighting hands? another shot that you are going to miss with. Fanfire? I do more damage with a single shot then I do with Fanfire because you can expect to miss at least one but most likely two shots. Return fire? Overwatch built Ranger is far better than return fire. Quickdraw? That's ok maybe but again, Rangers fill this better. Clutch Shot? Useful but most of the time not really worth carrying a pistol over a flashbang for. Gunslinger? Oh yay, another kill zone that is even worse than that poor perk is. Sorry but I feel like pistols are damn near worthless to carry.

[DerAva]

I see this misconception a lot. One of the main ways to make decision-making interesting is withhold perfect information from the player. That's why there is a fog of war. That's why the hit mechanic is random. That's why procedural maps with random pod placement are better than having fixed ones where you know where the aliens will be.

Well, I have to disagree here. The hit mechanic is not random. Yes, the hit is based on a random roll, but the actual numbers are not random at all. The game gives me all the information to see how the current hit chance is calculated, and I can then make decisions to either reduce those red numbers or increase the green numbers, or take a shot at the current chance. I can see that I get -20 aim from Tactical sense, and I can make the decisions to Flashbang to disable that perk, Holotarget to counteract the malus, or move soldiers away from the enemy to reduce the effect from the perk. If the game just told me "Chance to hit is 67%" without telling me how it arrived at the number then we would have the described situation where the player doesn't have the information to make a decision.

The same holds true for the Fog of War example: you do have all the information you need to make a decision. Your soldier has the perfect vision of 17 tiles in each direction. You don't have to roll a 14+ perception roll in order to spot that Advent group to the left - if they are within your line of sight you will see them.

One thing I agree on, though: it's not good if this leads to players training up tons of rookies and then dismissing them if they don't have the right AWC skills, so maybe revealing them once they reach the required rank to train them might be the answer, but that might technically not be possible.

[Saph7]

Sorry but I feel like pistols are damn near worthless to carry.

Here's a clip from Jon's latest campaign of his Assault using her shotgun and pistol to shoot three different aliens a total of six times. Good luck duplicating that with random AWC perks.

[Jadiel]

Well, I have to disagree here. The hit mechanic is not random. Yes, the hit is based on a random roll, but the actual numbers are not random at all. The game gives me all the information to see how the current hit chance is calculated, and I can then make decisions to either reduce those red numbers or increase the green numbers, or take a shot at the current chance. I can see that I get -20 aim from Tactical sense, and I can make the decisions to Flashbang to disable that perk, Holotarget to counteract the malus, or move soldiers away from the enemy to reduce the effect from the perk. If the game just told me "Chance to hit is 67%" without telling me how it arrived at the number then we would have the described situation where the player doesn't have the information to make a decision.

The same holds true for the Fog of War example: you do have all the information you need to make a decision. Your soldier has the perfect vision of 17 tiles in each direction. You don't have to roll a 14+ perception roll in order to spot that Advent group to the left - if they are within your line of sight you will see them.

One thing I agree on, though: it's not good if this leads to players training up tons of rookies and then dismissing them if they don't have the right AWC skills, so maybe revealing them once they reach the required rank to train them might be the answer, but that might technically not be possible.

The hit mechanic is random though. If you knew which shots would hit and which would miss, you could make more informed decisions. Because it's random though, there's uncertaintly. This causes frustration, because the game puts players in situations where they didn't expect to end up (e.g. that feeling when you miss 2 80+% shots which leaves a dangerous enemy in a position where they can do something bad). There's a degree to which your choice is informed, as you have some information to work with, but not all the information. And it feels bad when things don't go the way you hope/expect.

I think there are parallels to the AWC. You know (if you dig through the .ini) what perks your soldier might get, but you don't know which one they will get. You know what the probabilities are of getting a given perk, but it feels bad when you're unlucky and train for 12 days and don't get the ones you want.

In any case, my point wasn't really about the AWC at all. I was just trying to provide a counterpoint to the idea which I've seen crop up a lot that "less information is bad; more information is good".

[TheCiroth]

Here's a clip from Jon's latest campaign of his Assault using her shotgun and pistol to shoot three different aliens a total of six times. Good luck duplicating that with random AWC perks.

that is so situational, it isn't even funny how rare that would be. He also critted every shot he took, also very rare since they changed how Crit rolls. Also, Fan Fire should of ended his turn, even with run and gun so I tend to lean that being a bug. I am stating that Pistol perks in my run are not very useful. I keep trying to use them because I see him doing things like that but I very rarely see damage like that.

[LordYanaek]

I find the pistol to be lackluster at best. Most of the time, it doesn't hit. Pistols takes a slot that I could use for other gear.

Or you could say that whatever gear you have equipped took the place of a pistol
Some classes benefit from pistols more than others but used correctly they can be very potent.

• Return Fire can be useful on a tank character. He's supposed to be shot at (and survive) so at least let him punish enemies for shooting him. Almost like a free shot each turn.
• Quickdraw is the "poor man's Light em Up" and turns any class into a pseudo ranger. It's not as good as a real ranger but another shot is another shot and you rarely have full ranger squads.
• Clutch Shot guaranteed damage can always be useful. It won't always be useful but it's there if you need it.
• Lightning Hands free attack, it might miss, or it might finish a wounded enemy or remove an OW without using a flashbang on a single guy, or soften a target before the "real" shot. Since it's a free action even if it misses you are not in a worse situation than you would be without it.
• Faceoff never even trained it as it was always late in the tree but makes for a great opener out of concealment and a nice ability to soften several targets
• Fan Fire i trained it on two high mobility flankers (shinobi and assault) and it was my single target spike damage on both. My shinobi with Fan Fire could eradicate a full health Muton Elite without troubles thanks to Fan Fire.
• Gunslinger Didn't have a chance to test it but i'm sure i'll find some uses to this one in my next campaign. Probably very strong on an assault.

None of those abilities is game changing on it's own and none warrants the use of a pistol but since you can have several easily it gives you much more tactical options.

One thing I agree on, though: it's not good if this leads to players training up tons of rookies and then dismissing them if they don't have the right AWC skills, so maybe revealing them once they reach the required rank to train them might be the answer, but that might technically not be possible.

You don't see AWC perks on rookies so you must still train them for 10 days in the GTS to squadie before dismissing them. That's time when you are not training a directly useful soldier. Also you don't have unlimited supply of soldiers with good stats for the job you want. What if your super sharpshooter who finally got Lethal have crappy aim? I really don't see this as a big issue.

[JulianSkies]

Here's a clip from Jon's latest campaign of his Assault using her shotgun and pistol to shoot three different aliens a total of six times. Good luck duplicating that with random AWC perks.

that is so situational, it isn't even funny how rare that would be. He also critted every shot he took, also very rare since they changed how Crit rolls. Also, Fan Fire should of ended his turn, even with run and gun so I tend to lean that being a bug. I am stating that Pistol perks in my run are not very useful. I keep trying to use them because I see him doing things like that but I very rarely see damage like that.

Fan Fire has never ended turns, it's hardcoded on one AP cost no matter what. I'm fairly certain it's on purpose

[AlexTFish]

I absolutely agree with showing the whole AWC tree: I prioritise what's fun, and it's much more fun to know about what is (or could be) upcoming.

I love to see when Faceoff is in the top 2 pistol perks once I've got mag pistols; my technical with Faceoff and some nice ammo once killed 13 enemies and wounded about 13 more in a single action

[stefan3iii]

Here's a clip from Jon's latest campaign of his Assault using her shotgun and pistol to shoot three different aliens a total of six times. Good luck duplicating that with random AWC perks.

that is so situational, it isn't even funny how rare that would be. He also critted every shot he took, also very rare since they changed how Crit rolls. Also, Fan Fire should of ended his turn, even with run and gun so I tend to lean that being a bug. I am stating that Pistol perks in my run are not very useful. I keep trying to use them because I see him doing things like that but I very rarely see damage like that.

Pistols are extremely strong, but they have to be on the right character. They work extremely well with perks that give you +flat damage:
Bring Em On
Center Mass
Hunter's Instinct

They also combine well with Shadowstrike/Conceal/Phantom, as the +50/50 to hit and crit will apply to every hit of a Fan Fire or Face Off.

The behavior with Run And Gun is completely intentional, and makes Assaults some of the best pistol classes along with the Shinobi. RunNGun gives you an additional action that can be used for anything except movement, and since there are 2 pistols skills that are really strong and don't end your turn, you can do ridiculous things like:
Move
Take a free 4 tile Close Encounters shot
Activate Run and Gun
Fan Fire
Lightning Hands
Then face off, or take another shotgun shot.

I think the dream is to roll Center Mass, Bring Em On, and Run And Gun on a Shinobi in the AWC.

[stefan3iii]

I absolutely agree with showing the whole AWC tree: I prioritise what's fun, and it's much more fun to know about what is (or could be) upcoming.

I love to see when Faceoff is in the top 2 pistol perks once I've got mag pistols; my technical with Faceoff and some nice ammo once killed 13 enemies and wounded about 13 more in a single action

This would be fun, but I would definitely hire every recruit and then level the ones with godlike AWC rolls. Maybe that's not a terrible thing, but it would make the AWC very strong.

[Alketi]

I see that Guardian is being removed from the Sharpshooter list in the next patch. Is this because it's broken?

Asking because one of my Sharpshooter's has it as his first Defensive skill available.

[fowlJ]

I absolutely agree with showing the whole AWC tree: I prioritise what's fun, and it's much more fun to know about what is (or could be) upcoming.

I love to see when Faceoff is in the top 2 pistol perks once I've got mag pistols; my technical with Faceoff and some nice ammo once killed 13 enemies and wounded about 13 more in a single action

This would be fun, but I would definitely hire every recruit and then level the ones with godlike AWC rolls. Maybe that's not a terrible thing, but it would make the AWC very strong.

I don't think that this is realistically that big of a concern - you need to train all those rookies in the GTS before they even get an AWC tree (which won't actually be 'godlike' most of the time, so you'll go through a bunch of rookies (and a bunch of time) before you actually get what you're looking for), then drag them along on missions for however long to get them actually half decent in their own right, and then (after some additional tube time in the AWC itself) you have one soldier with a really good combination of perks who can only be brought on a fraction of your missions and is as susceptible to getting wounded or killed as any other.

[chrisb]

In any case, my point wasn't really about the AWC at all. I was just trying to provide a counterpoint to the idea which I've seen crop up a lot that "less information is bad; more information is good".

This right here is the knife edge of balance. Show too little and the game becomes unplayable because you have no idea wtf is going on, show too much and the game becomes trivial because you gain the ability to plan multiple moves in advance without worrying about deviations that much.

Right now one of the more egregious cases of the too little information is the strategy layer. Players seem constantly confused as to wtf is even going on. The only information you have is a Strength number. No idea how it got there, why it went up or down and so forth. You go around the web and find sprinklings of info on what it might be, but most of the information is partial tidbits and some of it is plain wrong. But, showing you the exact Vigilance level would trivialize alot of the mechanics of the strategy layer. And make "Herding" advent forces even easier than it is now once you understand the mechanics of the RegionalAI.

On the AWC, I think the issue of information isn't so much the issue. You don't see much discussion about the defense side of the tree. For example if you gave players a choice, they could reveal the Offense tree OR the Defense tree, they would almost unanimously pick the Offense tree. Partly because the Defense tree feels balanced. The only exclusion rules that exist are classes that have that perks, and the mutual exclusion on RapidReaction/Sentinel. Other than that the defense tree is quite useful, and there are many perks there that are exclusive to the AWC so they have no class perk conflicts.

Which is why I said before, I think the biggest "fix" that could be made is providing more AWC exclusive perks to the offense tree, removing or at least limiting the grenade perks from watering down the choices, or bringing back Tac Rigging so they could actually be useful perks on offense oriented troops. I would love my Ranger to have the option of some utility. I'd have to sacrifice mobility, but that would make it a choice I could make on a mission by mission basis. Instead I have to give up something crucial to my Ranger's survival or damage output, neither of which are interesting options.

[Phrozehn]

Is it possible to reduce the likelihood of specific perks showing up?
Is it possible to ONLY reveal Defense and Offense Trees, without showing pistol perks?
Is it possible to allow you to see two ranks of skills instead of all, or is it a binary option of ALL or only one?

I think a good solution would be to allow oyu to see the perk after the one you can currently train. SO for example I can see the first 2 perks on a fresh squaddie, but I wont know the last without investing 4 days. This would preserve the random discovery for pistol perks, but also give us meaningful information when determining whether to invest in Offence/Defense perks. We don't need to spend 12 days getting awful perks to see if the T3 is worth it. We only need to spend 4 days

[Phrozehn]

Also, can anyone tell me where to look for the AWC options myself? And what value to change to make AWC unhidden? I'd like to test in my next campaign how big a difference it makes to me being able to seem em all.

[LordYanaek]

At the beginning of XComLW_AWCPack.ini

Code: Select all

[LW_AWCPack_Integrated.UIArmory_AWCExpandedPromotion_LW]
; debug settings
ALWAYSSHOW=true			;display all future abilities instead of displaying "locked"
ALLOWTRAININGINARMORY=false	;allows training of abilities when UI accessed from Armory, not just from AWC

[LW_AWCPack_Integrated.X2StrategyElement_AWC_TrainingStaffSlot_LW]
AWCTRAININGUPGRADE_SLOT2_UNLOCKRANK=7

[LW_AWCPack_Integrated.LWAWCUtilities]
;the minimum regular soldier rank required for AWC training in facility for offense and defense abilities only; all pistols can always be trained; array index is ability level
+RequiredRankForAWCTraining[0]=0
+RequiredRankForAWCTraining[1]=2 ;default 1
+RequiredRankForAWCTraining[2]=4 ;default 2
+RequiredRankForAWCTraining[3]=6 ;default 3

TrainingDaysForAWCLevel[0] = 4.0f  ; unused
TrainingDaysForAWCLevel[1] = 4.0f
TrainingDaysForAWCLevel[2] = 8.0f
TrainingDaysForAWCLevel[3] = 12.0f

You want to change the 3rd line ALWAYSSHOW=true (the default is false)
The RequiredRankForAWCTraining lines in the code above control the rank required to train every level of AWC perk (there is no level 0)

It does reveal everything, no way to change this.

[Ithuriel]

It seems like a lot of people are using the reveal perk option. Might be useful to at least put it in the options menu to make it more convenient for those that want that but don't know enough about ini hacking.

I think the problem with doing that is that it does significantly increase the power level of XCOM without any benefit to the aliens at all (unlike other options like Red Fog). If you want to make the game easier using .ini edits, you're welcome to do so, but there needs to be a base line to balance from.

Yes. This exactly. And even if it's only a moderate increase, it's still a moderate increase to XCOM's power without any corresponding bonus to the aliens- and the only way I can think of to add a corresponding bonus would be perhaps increase the upgrade Dark Events' frequency or application chance, which I have no clue how to do.

[Ithuriel]

I absolutely agree with showing the whole AWC tree: I prioritise what's fun, and it's much more fun to know about what is (or could be) upcoming.

I love to see when Faceoff is in the top 2 pistol perks once I've got mag pistols; my technical with Faceoff and some nice ammo once killed 13 enemies and wounded about 13 more in a single action

Errr..... how? My Sharpshooter got lucky enough to roll Shadowstrike and Faceoff as tier-1 perks and he's kitted out with a Mag pistol as early as I could give him one. He only routinely kills ~2-3 enemies in a Faceoff- critting for 7-8 damage won't one-shot many things at this point, sadly. He just tends to dish out a crapload of minor wounds. (Also, line-of-sight is a pain to deal with).

[JulianSkies]

I absolutely agree with showing the whole AWC tree: I prioritise what's fun, and it's much more fun to know about what is (or could be) upcoming.

I love to see when Faceoff is in the top 2 pistol perks once I've got mag pistols; my technical with Faceoff and some nice ammo once killed 13 enemies and wounded about 13 more in a single action

Errr..... how? My Sharpshooter got lucky enough to roll Shadowstrike and Faceoff as tier-1 perks and he's kitted out with a Mag pistol as early as I could give him one. He only routinely kills ~2-3 enemies in a Faceoff- critting for 7-8 damage won't one-shot many things at this point, sadly. He just tends to dish out a crapload of minor wounds. (Also, line-of-sight is a pain to deal with).

Presumably shadowstrike combined with bring em on for more crit damage, if there were that many enemies in sight it'd give the full +8 crit damage, if that was an assault somehow then another +4 from killer instinct. I think that's enough for immense damage. One time only, but one hell of a time.

[The|suit]

I don't know about you - but I choose pistol skills for my sniper from AWC.
Being able to get free pistol shots at near by enemies has been extremely useful.

Especially Deep Cover + hunker down Aim bonus. So I can make 2 moves, and get a +20 aim for my next shot.

[LordYanaek]

It seems like a lot of people are using the reveal perk option. Might be useful to at least put it in the options menu to make it more convenient for those that want that but don't know enough about ini hacking.

I think the problem with doing that is that it does significantly increase the power level of XCOM without any benefit to the aliens at all (unlike other options like Red Fog). If you want to make the game easier using .ini edits, you're welcome to do so, but there needs to be a base line to balance from.

Yes. This exactly. And even if it's only a moderate increase, it's still a moderate increase to XCOM's power without any corresponding bonus to the aliens- and the only way I can think of to add a corresponding bonus would be perhaps increase the upgrade Dark Events' frequency or application chance, which I have no clue how to do.

But that's not really an increase in power because all it allows is to choose to train useless perks to access a great one rather than train multiple good perks. One great perk instead of several good ones doesn't make your squad more powerful, it makes one soldier more powerful but not your entire roster and XCom's strength is in their squads, not in individual soldiers.
In addition you can already go the super-soldier route without seeing the T2/T3 perks, you just have to train the pistol perks as you are guaranteed to get all the strong ones. At least by showing the perks, you have several options to get super soldiers.

[JoINrbs]

I see that Guardian is being removed from the Sharpshooter list in the next patch. Is this because it's broken?

Asking because one of my Sharpshooter's has it as his first Defensive skill available.

It doesn't play nice with Long Watch, if you don't take Long Watch it works fine though.

[Saph7]

It doesn't play nice with Long Watch, if you don't take Long Watch it works fine though.

Well, that explains why my Long Watch Guardian Sharpshooter hasn't been performing too well.

[Alketi]

It doesn't play nice with Long Watch, if you don't take Long Watch it works fine though.

Good to know. Thank you. Fortunately, I don't have Long Watch.

BTW, I noticed on reddit someone saying that Aim/Hunker was apparently breaking Steady Aim from stocks. Not sure if that's a known issue. It doesn't appear on the patch notes.