Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Sombertone
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Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:14 pm

Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Sombertone »

Movie marksmanship not withstanding, actually hitting a small target like the head while a man thrashes and avoiding hitting someone grappling would be a horrifyingly difficult shot. My greatest fear in my job is having to make the choice to shoot at an inmate assaulting an officer. Even with professional training and recreational range time, guns are just not as accurate as the uninformed think they are.

That said, I think the simplest solution would be to give the soldier /and/ the snake a defense bonus while grappled. Either 45 like high cover, or maybe even as high as 60. Being a harder shot, the enemy AI would be less likely to fire at them, and saving your own soldier now becomes more difficult to compensate.
LordYanaek
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by LordYanaek »

MacroNova wrote:
LordYanaek wrote:You're reasoning with static targets in mind but even a flanked soldier right next to an ADVENT trooper is not static. He's running away or trying to dodge or doing any action that can't be displayed in a turn based representation.
However, someone immobilized with his entire head visible is extremely easy to hit for anyone with slightly better than stormtrooper training.
Actually you are the one reasoning with static targets in mind. Obviously the xcom soldier is going to be struggling against the snake and not provide a static target.
We could certainly argue a long time whose reasoning is more realistic and whether a soldier constricted by the powerful muscles of a giant alien snake is immobilized or not but i don't see the point.
I'm trying to fit my reasoning to the game rather than complain the game doesn't fit my reasoning. It helps me avoid trivial concerns like realism from hindering my enjoyment because ultimately, it's just a game an nobody have studies how freely a soldier constricted by a giant alien snake can move. ;)

Final word for me in this discussion : try to enjoy the game and when something doesn't look realistic to you, try to find a reason why it's realistic in the context of the game. It's even easier when we are talking about Fantasy or Sci Fi settings.
JM01
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:29 pm

Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by JM01 »

LordYanaek wrote:
MacroNova wrote:
LordYanaek wrote:You're reasoning with static targets in mind but even a flanked soldier right next to an ADVENT trooper is not static. He's running away or trying to dodge or doing any action that can't be displayed in a turn based representation.
However, someone immobilized with his entire head visible is extremely easy to hit for anyone with slightly better than stormtrooper training.
Actually you are the one reasoning with static targets in mind. Obviously the xcom soldier is going to be struggling against the snake and not provide a static target.
We could certainly argue a long time whose reasoning is more realistic and whether a soldier constricted by the powerful muscles of a giant alien snake is immobilized or not but i don't see the point.
I'm trying to fit my reasoning to the game rather than complain the game doesn't fit my reasoning. It helps me avoid trivial concerns like realism from hindering my enjoyment because ultimately, it's just a game an nobody have studies how freely a soldier constricted by a giant alien snake can move. ;)

Final word for me in this discussion : try to enjoy the game and when something doesn't look realistic to you, try to find a reason why it's realistic in the context of the game. It's even easier when we are talking about Fantasy or Sci Fi settings.
I would have to agree that if we are talking about realism and whether or not a unit is static if bound by a snake, then yeah if a unit is bound by a giant alien snake (which is much larger with larger muscles than even the largest boa constrictor on Earth) that unit is going NOWHERE. The soldier may be struggling but the only part of their body that they will be able to move is their head, the rest of their body is going nowhere.

Just for a point of reference a boa constricor (and it doesn't have to be the largest one) can crush your bones if it wraps itself around you (though since it is so much smaller it would likely take longer and given that they are much slower than an alien viper being bound by one would likely only happen if you were unconscious :P).
Sombertone
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Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:14 pm

Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Sombertone »

Could easily shoot them in the head... The head is all they could thrash around...

I'm not arguing the point because it breaks my suspension of disbelief, but because the mechanic seems unbalanced. Sure, you can blow up cover and leave someone suddenly flanked, but grab does that and activates new pods and moves the target away from allies.

The realism discussion, from me, is a frame for my own solution. To put both xcom and the snek in high cover or worse. It thematically works, cause if you think it's easy to shoot into a grapple you're uninformed on the basic concepts of marksmanship, and it mechanically works. It's harder to damage either one without hurting your ally, regardless of which side you are on. It makes the grapple itself more deadly while making the cheesewheel effect of guaranteed flanky murder less of an issue.
Flintrok
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Flintrok »

2 words: Support Grenadier...helps to make all your snake problems go away.
MacroNova
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by MacroNova »

LordYanaek wrote:
MacroNova wrote:
LordYanaek wrote:You're reasoning with static targets in mind but even a flanked soldier right next to an ADVENT trooper is not static. He's running away or trying to dodge or doing any action that can't be displayed in a turn based representation.
However, someone immobilized with his entire head visible is extremely easy to hit for anyone with slightly better than stormtrooper training.
Actually you are the one reasoning with static targets in mind. Obviously the xcom soldier is going to be struggling against the snake and not provide a static target.
We could certainly argue a long time whose reasoning is more realistic and whether a soldier constricted by the powerful muscles of a giant alien snake is immobilized or not but i don't see the point.
I'm trying to fit my reasoning to the game rather than complain the game doesn't fit my reasoning. It helps me avoid trivial concerns like realism from hindering my enjoyment because ultimately, it's just a game an nobody have studies how freely a soldier constricted by a giant alien snake can move. ;)

Final word for me in this discussion : try to enjoy the game and when something doesn't look realistic to you, try to find a reason why it's realistic in the context of the game. It's even easier when we are talking about Fantasy or Sci Fi settings.
Actually what we should be talking about is what's fun and balanced. Snake tongue grab is neither. It's all or nothing. Either you shut the snake down, pray to rngesus, or take absurd losses because an ability removes your soldier, makes him an easy target, and triggers more pods. So maybe try to find a reason why this should continue to be in the game as it is instead of offering condescending suggestions.
Doctor Sticks
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Doctor Sticks »

I think that aliens SHOULD fire at a bound enemy, since that is the smart thing to do.

That being said, I am all in favor of the mod that makes the tongue grab not work against Full Cover. Also, a soldier should be immune while hunkering down, for basically the same reason. Having a hunkering solider grabbed, only to be shot to pieces is pretty depressing.
JulianSkies
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by JulianSkies »

Doctor Sticks wrote:I think that aliens SHOULD fire at a bound enemy, since that is the smart thing to do.
About as smart as firing at the stunned target while you still have another six uncontrolled aliens to kill.
Admittedly making the AI weight properly the usefulness of controlling XCOM is probably hard
nightwyrm
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by nightwyrm »

JulianSkies wrote:
Doctor Sticks wrote:I think that aliens SHOULD fire at a bound enemy, since that is the smart thing to do.
About as smart as firing at the stunned target while you still have another six uncontrolled aliens to kill.
Admittedly making the AI weight properly the usefulness of controlling XCOM is probably hard
It depends on what kind of "smarts" you want the computer AI to have. Ignoring a stunned enemy to try to kill live ones is tactically smart. Focusing on killing as many easy targets as they could because they know they have vastly more resources than you and can afford to win a war of attrition is strategically smart.
LordYanaek
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by LordYanaek »

MacroNova wrote: Actually what we should be talking about is what's fun and balanced.
OK, this i agree to discuss. Maybe you didn't noticed but i already agreed with those who said it's chance to hit is a bit on the high end and those who think it should have a cooldown. The only argument i definitely rejected was the "realism" argument for reasons i won't repeat.
Either you shut the snake down, pray to rngesus, or take absurd losses
Yes, those are your options and mine. We need to adapt our tactics when we see a Snek. That's basically what a tactical game is : adapting your tactics to the opposition, an opposition that can be easy at times or harder at other times. We have multiple ways of dealing with them, several don't even rely on the RNG. It's not that bad if you prepare for the possibility of facing them. It's not really "all or nothing" thought, they don't auto-hit so (dense) smoke can help you, as does a high defense stat or having a spark as the only visible soldiers (just did this in a recent mission). Controlling them is the best protection but you have various mitigation options.
So maybe try to find a reason why this should continue to be in the game as it is instead of offering condescending suggestions.
As i already said, they fit the LW1 Thin Men's role of a very dangerous enemy that needs to be dealt with in priority or bad things will happen. The game needs dangerous enemies. It would be far less interesting if every enemy was just capable of sitting behind some cover and take low percentage shots at you.
That's why i think it should stay in the game. Maybe not "as it is" and maybe after some tweaks, not sure about the chance to hit (i haven't found real numbers so maybe we just "feel" like it hits too often while it's just normal) but there are some tweaks that would probably make sense. However it shouldn't just be removed nor turned into a laughable ability.

Finally, i will repeat another suggestion i already made, but one that might not be technically possible. If possible revert to the old (global) behavior of not shooting at disabled XCom on lower difficulties, but keep this behavior at higher difficulties. Having ADVENT shoot at your disabled soldiers makes the game harder and more challenging : some players like such a challenge, others prefer a more relaxed experience. Neither is wrong or right, it's a matter of personal preferences and if the game can please both, than it's even better.

Also, sorry if i sounded condescending, it was never my intention :oops: but please don't discuss this part further, let's keep this thread on topic ;)
Drogmyre
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Drogmyre »

LordYanaek wrote:As i already said, they fit the LW1 Thin Men's role of a very dangerous enemy that needs to be dealt with in priority or bad things will happen. The game needs dangerous enemies. It would be far less interesting if every enemy was just capable of sitting behind some cover and take low percentage shots at you.
That's why i think it should stay in the game. Maybe not "as it is" and maybe after some tweaks, not sure about the chance to hit (i haven't found real numbers so maybe we just "feel" like it hits too often while it's just normal) but there are some tweaks that would probably make sense. However it shouldn't just be removed nor turned into a laughable ability.
Except they already have the characteristics that made Thin Men so dangerous.

Vipers, Sidewinders, and Naja already have the characteristic insane accuracy rating AND poison.

Tongue Pull is bullshit because it pulls YOU to THEM.

If it was like EU/EW/LW1 with Seekers, Strangle was dangerous but not too terrifying because you had easy counters (battlescanner, overwatch, etc.) AND they came to you. So you'd have your guys all huddling inside a building on overwatch waiting for the stupid squid bastards to reveal themselves so you can blast them.

Bind is not a problematic ability. Tongue Pull is bullshit but not a problem.

HOWEVER, they combine together to make a completely anti-fun and unfair mechanic where your soldier is not only disabled, not only does he run the risk of pulling more enemies, but he has no cover despite the Viper benefitting from cover! So I can have a 20% chance to shoot the snake, but ADVENT has +40% to hit as well as bonus crit on my guy because reasons.

That's actually what's bullshit about the tongue pull into bind.
Jacke
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Jacke »

Drogmyre wrote:Bind is not a problematic ability. Tongue Pull is bullshit but not a problem.

HOWEVER, they combine together to make a completely anti-fun and unfair mechanic where your soldier is not only disabled, not only does he run the risk of pulling more enemies, but he has no cover despite the Viper benefitting from cover! So I can have a 20% chance to shoot the snake, but ADVENT has +40% to hit as well as bonus crit on my guy because reasons.

That's actually what's bullshit about the tongue pull into bind.
Hear, hear!

And how can they tongue-pull from so far away? The smallest chameleon have tongues that can project between 2 and 3 times their body length. But because of the Square-Cube Law you're not going to see that scale in larger animals. And how can the Snek pull a full-weight soldier back?!? And then there's the cover mismatch AND possible pod activation on top.

And why can't the pulled soldier do anything to break free? No possibility? Imagine having a full map of Sneks and getting your whole team tongue-pulled at the same time....
Drogmyre
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Drogmyre »

Jacke wrote:
Drogmyre wrote:Bind is not a problematic ability. Tongue Pull is bullshit but not a problem.

HOWEVER, they combine together to make a completely anti-fun and unfair mechanic where your soldier is not only disabled, not only does he run the risk of pulling more enemies, but he has no cover despite the Viper benefitting from cover! So I can have a 20% chance to shoot the snake, but ADVENT has +40% to hit as well as bonus crit on my guy because reasons.

That's actually what's bullshit about the tongue pull into bind.
Hear, hear!

And how can they tongue-pull from so far away? The smallest chameleon have tongues that can project between 2 and 3 times their body length. But because of the Square-Cube Law you're not going to see that scale in larger animals. And how can the Snek pull a full-weight soldier back?!? And then there's the cover mismatch AND possible pod activation on top.

And why can't the pulled soldier do anything to break free? No possibility? Imagine having a full map of Sneks and getting your whole team tongue-pulled at the same time....
Gunners and Shinobi should be able to cut the tongue off and deal damage to the Viper.
Tuhalu
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Tuhalu »

Drogmyre wrote:Gunners and Shinobi should be able to cut the tongue off and deal damage to the Viper.
In vanilla, Bladestorm worked on a successful tongue attack, allowing you to slash them before they tried to bind you. Not sure if it still does in LW2 as it never happened to me in my LW2 campaigns. Would be good if Combatives worked the same way though... Also, combatives will be in the Shinobi tree for 1.3 and can be picked in addition to Bladestorm!
archangel
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by archangel »

nightwyrm wrote:
JulianSkies wrote:
Doctor Sticks wrote:I think that aliens SHOULD fire at a bound enemy, since that is the smart thing to do.
About as smart as firing at the stunned target while you still have another six uncontrolled aliens to kill.
Admittedly making the AI weight properly the usefulness of controlling XCOM is probably hard
It depends on what kind of "smarts" you want the computer AI to have. Ignoring a stunned enemy to try to kill live ones is tactically smart. Focusing on killing as many easy targets as they could because they know they have vastly more resources than you and can afford to win a war of attrition is strategically smart.
By that logic all enemy units when they are close enough should be running next to your troops to get flank and close aim and crit chance bonuses and not care if the live after that or not.
JulianSkies
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by JulianSkies »

Drogmyre wrote:
Jacke wrote:
Drogmyre wrote:Bind is not a problematic ability. Tongue Pull is bullshit but not a problem.

HOWEVER, they combine together to make a completely anti-fun and unfair mechanic where your soldier is not only disabled, not only does he run the risk of pulling more enemies, but he has no cover despite the Viper benefitting from cover! So I can have a 20% chance to shoot the snake, but ADVENT has +40% to hit as well as bonus crit on my guy because reasons.

That's actually what's bullshit about the tongue pull into bind.
Hear, hear!

And how can they tongue-pull from so far away? The smallest chameleon have tongues that can project between 2 and 3 times their body length. But because of the Square-Cube Law you're not going to see that scale in larger animals. And how can the Snek pull a full-weight soldier back?!? And then there's the cover mismatch AND possible pod activation on top.

And why can't the pulled soldier do anything to break free? No possibility? Imagine having a full map of Sneks and getting your whole team tongue-pulled at the same time....
Gunners and Shinobi should be able to cut the tongue off and deal damage to the Viper.
Only if they have sufficiently good reaction time (also known as Bladestorm). Oh wait, it does appen, even if it has super buggy visualization.
dstar3k
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by dstar3k »

Jacke wrote:
Drogmyre wrote: And how can they tongue-pull from so far away? The smallest chameleon have tongues that can project between 2 and 3 times their body length. But because of the Square-Cube Law you're not going to see that scale in larger animals. And how can the Snek pull a full-weight soldier back?!?
This actually leads to an interesting thought....

What if the Snek pulled the soldier halfway back... and _themself_ halfway forward, which is roughly what you'd expect given equal masses since they don't seem to anchor themselves to anything.

This would a) reduce the chance for the enemy to shoot your soldier, since they'd be further away, and b) improve the chances for you to shoot the Snek on your turn.

It might still need an aim nerf, I'm not sure, but it would definitely make it more interesting than _JUST_ applying an aim nerf....
JulianSkies
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by JulianSkies »

dstar3k wrote:
Jacke wrote:
Drogmyre wrote: And how can they tongue-pull from so far away? The smallest chameleon have tongues that can project between 2 and 3 times their body length. But because of the Square-Cube Law you're not going to see that scale in larger animals. And how can the Snek pull a full-weight soldier back?!?
This actually leads to an interesting thought....

What if the Snek pulled the soldier halfway back... and _themself_ halfway forward, which is roughly what you'd expect given equal masses since they don't seem to anchor themselves to anything.

This would a) reduce the chance for the enemy to shoot your soldier, since they'd be further away, and b) improve the chances for you to shoot the Snek on your turn.

It might still need an aim nerf, I'm not sure, but it would definitely make it more interesting than _JUST_ applying an aim nerf....
Like what the visualization does for me except they are both still at the snake original spot thus all animations for those two are now irrevocably broken.
It would be a cool idea, though.
Doctor Sticks
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Doctor Sticks »

We basically have two options here, either make Advent NOT attack bound units, OR, make the tongue pull not work against Full Cover and/or Hunker down.

While on the topic, Advent will also attack your mind-controlled units. This one, while technically also smart, is a bit counter intuitive, since if a Sectoid went to the trouble of taking an Xcom solider, are his friends somehow aware that your team is packing Flashbags and will immediately break the control? Realistically, aliens should not attack mind-controlled units.
seananigans
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by seananigans »

JulianSkies wrote:
Doctor Sticks wrote:I think that aliens SHOULD fire at a bound enemy, since that is the smart thing to do.
About as smart as firing at the stunned target while you still have another six uncontrolled aliens to kill.
Admittedly making the AI weight properly the usefulness of controlling XCOM is probably hard
I actually don't think it has to be hard in this case. Someone earlier in the thread suggested giving the bound soldier a bonus to defense/dodge. If a bound soldier received ~55 defense (slightly higher than full cover, and trying to compensate for possible NCE), he'd all of a sudden not be prioritized.

As JL said, this is an artifact of them releasing the AI from their requirement to leave CC'd soldiers as last picks. Well, we all know the AI will 90%+ of the time shoot at the easiest-to-hit target, and a cover-less soldier is going to be that, every time. If the bind gave the soldier "cover" of 55 (cover for exposed-crit protection), that fixes this AI quirk, while allowing Pavonis's change to the underlying prioritizations to remain. Frankly bind is rough enough being a damage-over-time AND CC, I personally don't think it needs additional help in the way of almost-certain exposed shots/crits.

Surely the bind effect can be coded this way, as it's probably technically a debuff, right? The cover and 55 defense could be added to the "debuff?" I'm sure the cover part would actually need to be whatever state MECs and other units have that makes them not have to worry about exposure, since cover is directional and that'd get messy.
RantingRodent
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by RantingRodent »

I'll take a dozen tongue grabs over a single Rocketeer rocket, and I don't see anyone complaining that those are unbalanced.
Jacke
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by Jacke »

RantingRodent wrote:I'll take a dozen tongue grabs over a single Rocketeer rocket, and I don't see anyone complaining that those are unbalanced.
A Rocketeer will rarely outright kill an XCOM soldier and never cause more pods to be activated. And the usual tools to deal with enemy Rocketeers tend to be more effective, as Sneks have high dodge.
moroniccinamun
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Re: Enemies shooting at Xcom while bound by Vipers

Post by moroniccinamun »

Well I'm glad other people feel the same, I thought I just needed to git gud.

Some of these ideas are quite "exotic". Giving the soldier and binding viper more DODGE, rather than defense, may be a better move? Both sides will be trying to not hit the vitals of their guy, thus making grazes/misses more often.
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