Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

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Nibelung44
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Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Nibelung44 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:29 pm

Just discovered its existence during a replay (from XWynns), but he is not using it, rest assured ;)

I wonder if this is still viewed as a cheap tactic? Not fan of using it anyway.

Ethereal Commander
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Ethereal Commander » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:59 pm

Please explain the Beagle maneuver.

JulianSkies
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by JulianSkies » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:24 pm

Definitely not cheap at all, do that to a pod on yellow alert and you're losing at least one soldier.
Pods aren't as helpless on activation now

LordYanaek
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by LordYanaek » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:30 pm

Ethereal Commander wrote:Please explain the Beagle maneuver.
While in squad concealment, you put everyone on overwatch and keep one soldier exposed so when the enemy sees you, you loose concealment and trigger overwatch (during the enemy's turn) then you have your own turn to shoot again.

For one it works only on green alert pods (most missions the first pod is green anyway) as yellow pods can easily kill you if you're exposed and their reaction triggers. Then by doing this you loose the concealment bonus on OW shots. Finally there are multiple better ways of opening the fight in LW2 : Trench gun on the exposed and grouped pod, grenade (frag or sting or even regular flashbang), flamethrower, Iron Curtain (and later saturation fire). I think it might only be considered useful in the very first missions and even on Gatecrasher i'm not sure it's better than throwing a flashbang on an entire pod (which also reduces how far away they can scamper).

BTW it's Beaglerush maneuver (from the name of a streamer who popularized it in the early days of XCom2)

stefan3iii
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by stefan3iii » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm

It's very strong, and is going to be your opening out of stealth 90% of the time, especially early game, mid game, and in rendezvous missions. It's especially good if you can set it up so that the enemies walk point blank up to shotgun users, and spot them on a flank. If they have CCS then GG for that pod :)

I think exceptions to the beagle maneuver might be if you don't think you can kill the pod after the overwatch fire happens, and instead want to open with a flamer or incendiary, or a shadowstrike faceoff/shredder. Usually that's a waste of resources, because it's pretty easy to mop up the half a pod left over after an overwatch ambush from stealth.

Another reason you might not do it is time pressure, or if you just have a squad that has very few soldiers that shoot well (ie 2 technicals, 2 grenadiers).

Dwarfling
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Dwarfling » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:44 am

I still prefer to open with a flamethrower, trench gun or a status grenade when possible. I only seem to use the "maneuver" on Gatecrasher or Rendevouz.

chrisb
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by chrisb » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:01 am

Ya I pretty much use this as much as possible. It works really well with a squad of shotguns. Bigger pods, like a couple of 8s merged together deserve a rocket for such stupidity, but it can easily blow away anything less than 4.

archangel
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by archangel » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:03 am

I used this a lot when I figured out it works on green alert. Maybe some late game options are better but early game and mid game this is best way to kill the first pod. I also use it on Supply Raids and Troop Column assaults to kill the first big pod super easily.

Kharneth
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Kharneth » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:48 am

I never use it at first option but always have ready my squad for use it in case one of my guys is spotted in the enemy turn while i prepared the real ambush.

For me, even early game, always are better ways to open like trench gun, flamethrower, even a granade. And my favourite early game, frost granade, that gives you two turns to fire the pod in the open (except for one guy that usually you can't caugh in the radius... but you only need to deal with one)

Dwarfling
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Dwarfling » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:36 am

Oh and talking about "cheapness": ADVENT gets free reflex shots on you the rest of the game, and even abilities, because of the alert system. Screw those guys. Besides, it's by design, Pavonis chose to do away with the old system that prevented this.

LordYanaek
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by LordYanaek » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:30 pm

Dwarfling wrote:Besides, it's by design, Pavonis chose to do away with the old system that prevented this.
If you look at XComAI.ini in the LW2 config you'll see this

Code: Select all

; Disables CBRM b/c green/yellow actions are sufficient
+BehaviorRemovals="CounterBeaglerushManeuver"
+NewBehaviors=(BehaviorName=CounterBeaglerushManeuver, NodeType=Failer, Child[0]=IsAbilityAvailable-StandardShot)
So yes, they disabled it on purpose and even added a comment to explain why they did it. So we are totally allowed to use it without considering it "cheap" :twisted:

Now if it appears it's way too efficient, don't be surprised if some shots at exposed targets become valid actions for green alert pods :lol:
However i think the overall number of enemies and availability of other options past the early game makes it less powerful than it was in Vanilla XCom2. Rendezvous are the obvious exception since they are basically early game missions till the end of the game and even then if you have a good AoE available on your advisor, it might be more efficient to use it to wipe a pod quickly than rely on overwatch shots from you rebels as the second pod often shows up pretty quickly after you go loud.

Severian
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Severian » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:07 pm

I agree that it is cheap. I would prefer that the pod simply get a full (i.e. normal) move, starting from the reveal. It should be a bad thing if your troops are caught out of cover. That would make opening with a flash-bang much more reasonable (which is how it would be done in reality unless everyone had a kill shot). The yellow-alert pods are fine as they are though.

Flintrok
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Flintrok » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:56 pm

I do use it a lot on Rendezvous (kill Faceless) missions where all that you have is maybe 1 Soldier Haven Advisor and some Rookies. Setting it up from height advantage (usually there is 1 building in the middle of those maps to use) for some aim bonus helps a lot.

One side note - if you have 2 pods in visual range and try to open with Beaglerush maneuver, I've noticed that sometimes the farthest away pod will scamper move FIRST after you have been detected. And so, the farthest pod will aggro your overwatch shots. This is not ideal. So, be careful with this maneuver with more than 1 pod in visual range.

chrisb
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by chrisb » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:59 pm

Flintrok wrote:I do use it a lot on Rendezvous (kill Faceless) missions where all that you have is maybe 1 Soldier Haven Advisor and some Rookies. Setting it up from height advantage (usually there is 1 building in the middle of those maps to use) for some aim bonus helps a lot.

One side note - if you have 2 pods in visual range and try to open with Beaglerush maneuver, I've noticed that sometimes the farthest away pod will scamper move FIRST after you have been detected. And so, the farthest pod will aggro your overwatch shots. This is not ideal. So, be careful with this maneuver with more than 1 pod in visual range.
This can also sometimes lead to the second pod yellow alerting. If the first pod trips the overwatch, the second pod isn't activated yet by the game engine, and the sound events get processed causing them to yellow alert. After the first scampers the second scampers on yellow. It's not common but it can happen. I think the last time I had this happen the second pod was actually out of visual range, then yellow moved toward the fighting.

Goldenmonkey
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Re: Is the 'Beagle maneuver' still cheap?

Post by Goldenmonkey » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:04 am

IMO, famethrower opening beats this 9 times out of 10. You can very often damage 5-8 enemies and have at least half of them burning, thus rendering them useless for 2 turns.
Overwatch is too unreliable, unless you build for it. But who has a whole squad built for overwatch?

My preferred way is to have 1 or 2 guys built for overwatch on overwatch and then open with a flamethrower. flashbang grenadier to follow up onb uncontrolled enemies and a clean-up ranger.

As for how dangerous the Beaglerush maneuver is. If you have fortify and aid protocol up, you can survive in the open. add some armor and a tank built to that and you are fine, even on yellow alert.

E: Also, I don't think it is cheap. It is a valid trade-off. You risk one soldier, to get an advantage. A classic trap. We are supposed to ambush troops, as guerilla fighters. In fact, it kinda seems silly to fire one shot and then have alle the other soldiers wait until the enemy has found cover...

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