Stationary sniper build feedback.

[DjAci]

Hi,

I wanted to share some thoughts on the current sniper tree.

I will be focused exclusively on the stationary (DFA) sniper archetype builds as those I had mucho experience during my campaign.

My main premise is that the current state of sniper tree (excluding middle holo target perks) is fairly unbalanced for both the DFA and Snapshot snipers.

So, if a want to build a stationary sniper combat sniper (not going for holo traget perks) I get this build more or less:

LCPL: DFA: Self explanitory, great range bonus
CPL: DDG: A great perk for a long range nest sniper
SGT: Deadshot: Longwatch is less useful than in vanilla due to pod activation changes and scope not boosting OW shots, and it is too high on the tree
SSGT: Critical mass: All other are holo target or crap
TSGT: Agression: I cant understand for the life of me what conceal does here? I know it has a sporadic use, but compared to agression it is nothing. Additionaly, a sniper with squadsight can take more advantage from agression than any other class as he can see more enemies
GSGT: Hunter instincts: Kubikiri is still broken and marginally useful even when working as intended, especially for a GSGT rank. Thruthfully, I would rather have the current version of Deadeye here!
MSGT: All are compeling.

So, I believe if we exclude the holo perks, this would be the build most higher level players would agree on, for a long range non-holo sniper.

There are two problems with this tree/build:

1. Most perks are locked and you dont have a real choice, as other perks on the same rank are severely weaker than their alternative.

2. The build is still fairly powerful, but is extremely dependant on high ground!

Mainly the ability to chain steady weapons kills each turn is a problem (with DFA + Stock). If you dont have high ground due to DFA and DDG your soldier sucks. With high ground and DFA + DDG your soldier is godlike.

All other perks are mostly just general purpose upgrades (center mass, deadshot, agression) so the only thing you need for your sniper is high ground that improves it's DPS cca +80%. In other words, if you have high ground you are god, otherwise mediocre at best.

The problem with high ground (unlike other conditional bonuses like Lone Wolf is that it is very unreliable, as there are maps where high ground doesn't exist at all.)

My proposal is to keep high ground a nice bonus, but not sth game changing.

So here is my proposal to improve upon that.

1. Add a perk like STEADY HANDS instead of DDG. Maybe weaken steady hands a bit by giving only +Aim, no crit so it can go on corporal. This would improve your sniper even if you have no high ground and focus on you giving him a spot so he doesn't have to move. That makes all you think in terms of how stationary it should be. DFA will force you to seek high ground for it's massive Stock bonus chaining, so both perks will make a niper more flexible and less high ground dependant and also deepen its tactical layer of thinking.

2. Replace center mass with the LW "SHARPSHOOTER PERK", +10 (+15) Aim vs enemies in high cover. Instead of a generic boost, this would improve your sniper, by roughly the same amount, but focus on him being less fa a DPS dealer and more of a surgical strike. forcing you to choose your targets with more care!

3. Remove CONCEAL and replace it with AGRESSION, and put a new perk in the place of agression, like EXECUTIONER (really nice for the marksman sniper)

4. Remove damage penalty on Kubikiri, fix it completely and reduce cooldown.

Mainly, this is about replacing DDG and Center mass with more interesting perks like STEADY HANDS and LW SHARPSHOOTER that give a similar passive bonus, but for a deeper tactical gameplay and less reliance on high ground.

This way your sniper (long range stationary variety) can benefit from 3 instead of 1 conditional bonus.

1. High ground: harder to find, but very powerful with stock, and not as singular as before with BOTH DFA and DDG.

2. Stationary: A perk like steady hands forces you to gain a bonus by insuring your sniper doesn't move. Why add DDG that only improves the same tactical thinking like DFA, when you can have a perk that deepens tactical layer and makes the class more flexible.

3. Anti cover: A perk like LW 1 SHARPSHOOTER (+10 Aim against enemies in high cover) would make your sniper better for those targets, and less of a general shooter. It would deepen the tactical thinking, make soldiers good against heavy easy to hit targets better, and would put less emphasis on regular cover removal.

In essence, this would make the DFA sniper roughly equally powerful, but a bit more specialized and more reliable while also forcing you to think about more tactical choices to get the most out it!

Community, thoughts plz:)

[Goumindong]

Precision shot> dgg in most cases as you will cap aim very quickly with dfa steady.

[chrisb]

I don't really think DFA is all that much of an hot pick. I used to but then I started playing with RT and it's much more effective IMO. Combined with PS it gives you one really powerful shot especially once you pickup the other 3 auto picks. High ground is either too unavailable, has LOS issues, requires too much movement to get to, or is unsafe/flankable. The range bonus from DFA is not hard to play without. Stacking all the perks for elevation leaves you with a sniper that isn't all that consistent. When it works its awesome, when it doesn't your either not shooting at all, or taking slightly worse shots than before. But then, that's what pistols are for

Outside of the first 2 ranks, where there's at least some flexibility, I think the fact that it has such a binary holo or shoot split hurts the flexibility a lot. If your not building a holobot who doesn't shoot, then the whole middle of the tree is an auto no-pick as you can't use them and shoot. That basically leaves 90+% of sniper builds with a perk tree that has only 2 options, not 3. The only time I build holobots is when I get a bad random roll off gatecrasher like some 58 aim bozo. Make him an officer holobot and let him buff everyone else's shots.

I think one thing that would fix some of this is allowing the middle tree perks to have some effect for the sniper, or somehow allowing the sniper to use them without screwing up his own turn. VPT used to be a great perk and even had decent competition, now it is kind of junk as you need RT to use it, and only get that once every 3 shots.

Another idea I had was getting rid of the holo-specific perks and making it baseline with the holo targeter. Adjust so its not totally OP. Then you can fill in the perks with interesting choices that make the sniper better instead of the current single sniper build that only really varies by the first 2 ranks.

As for MSGT, I really don't see these as being all that competitive with the current state of Serial. Maybe fix kubikiri and move it to MSGT. AMF is sort of ok, but the ability to kill all the things in 1 turn makes the need for AMF kind of moot.

[DjAci]

Precision shot> dgg in most cases as you will cap aim very quickly with dfa steady.

I agree. Though I would like to see a reasonable alternative to the precision shot on the tree. So it is less of an autopick.

@chrisb

I agree RT is more flexible and better than DFA though it is a bit off topic (I focused on non holo builds in this thread:). That is exacltly what I am talking about. Making a good sniper at this moment is just taking a number of autopicks (deadshot, agression, huner inst., center mass, RT, serial) I feel shooty sniper builds lack power compared to holo flexibility. If they were made more flexible, in line with my suggestion above DFA (and its range bonus) would become more attractive and reliable, and the range build as a whole.

As for MSGT perks, I agree. I just focused more on the rest of the tree seeing as those don't have so much effect in terms of balancing lower level perks. I think Serial should be nerfed (like -1 damage per shot and a max limit or sth.) and it's CD reduced to compensate.

[darkerevent]

I prefer DFA sharps for any non-timed mission for sure, under a dedicated Holo sharp officer. In addition to the height bonus, I also like what DFA does to the sharpshooter's aim when shooting at very long ranges.

I generally don't like doing the RT hybrid thing because I never feel comfortable with the sharpshooter's chance to hit like I do with DFA+Steady. However, I use multiple sharpshooters in my A-team for non-timed missions, so it's easy for me to specialize them accordingly. I could see an RT hybrid being nice in the midgame for a squad that has exactly one sharpshooter and has an overall playstyle that focuses a lot on destroying cover with technicals, gunners, and shredguns, since it's easier to get choice shots without needing DFA's help in that case.

[hewhoispale]

I agree RT is more flexible and better than DFA though it is a bit off topic (I focused on non holo builds in this thread:).

Personally, after something like the third supply raid in a row where there's no high ground I could take until having already basically cleared the map, I've started to really sour on DFA. I'm currently considering the DFA-stock nest build a HQ/retaliation-exclusive niche soldier, as on a flat map is it nearly dead weight due to so much of their build's power budget being a combo that doesn't work.

I've been trying out starting rapid targeting into precision shot and then getting all the rest of the typical stationary skills, no other targeter skills, for my general purpose untimed-mission snipers. I certainly wouldn't call it a "holo build", but it can be built around the idea of working regardless of elevation availability.

I cant understand for the life of me what conceal does here?

My understanding of usage for it would be that conceal is a defensive perk for nest snipers: for when the soldier gets flanked after the rest of the team has left them behind and can't run back in time to support them. It's spending a perk choice on the ability to bail your sniper out if they get caught out of position, sorta like evasive on a stealth shinobi.

I think Kubikuri actually would be a perfectly fine pick as a high-armor killing skill once the bugs are addressed and otherwise left as is. It is not too hard to get 70+ chance to crit regularly with a sniper. Hunter's instinct requires either cover removal or keeping your sniper way out to the side, otherwise they are just mostly just going to have shots against ADVENT taking cover against your other soldiers that are screening for the sniper.

Personally, long watch is the only perk I have never taken in LW2. Overwatch is a fairly weak action choice without synergizing perks (which the sharpshooter has none), especially on a class that often stacks crit. If long watch allowed crits on overwatch shots, I think this becomes a more reasonable choice.

Outside of the first 2 ranks, where there's at least some flexibility, I think the fact that it has such a binary holo or shoot split hurts the flexibility a lot. If your not building a holobot who doesn't shoot, then the whole middle of the tree is an auto no-pick as you can't use them and shoot. That basically leaves 90+% of sniper builds with a perk tree that has only 2 options, not 3.

Isn't that true of a lot of the classes though? Cooldown vs suppression gunners. Fire vs rocket technicals. Overwatch vs not-overwatch rangers/specialists. Any given specialized build might grab one, maybe two, perks that don't directly effect their specialization, but won't that basically always be true of perks that synergize with each other unless a given perk is out of balance for that level?

[darkerevent]

Personally, long watch is the only perk I have never taken in LW2. Overwatch is a fairly weak action choice without synergizing perks (which the sharpshooter has none), especially on a class that often stacks crit. If long watch allowed crits on overwatch shots, I think this becomes a more reasonable choice.

Long Watch is indeed terrible. During my 1.2 campaign, I took it on a DFA sharpie who happened to pull Guardian in the AWC, just to see how it would go. Long story short, he's easily the worst overwatch-themed character in my entire roster and mostly has the effect of accidentally pulling pods before I'm actually ready to pull them (often still managing to miss the shot despite his aim and height advantage). By the end of the campaign I had resigned myself to just using him as a C-team single-shot sniper. The fact overwatch doesn't work with stocks seals the deal on making Long Watch awful.

Pretty much, I feel like Long Watch could only be good if it included the effects of CUP automatically AND gave some kind of large aim and crit bonus. Otherwise, there's just no way it's going to meaningfully match taking a steadied shot with DFA.

[chrisb]

I think the only thing going for longwatch is it appears to not be effected by lightning reflexes. Other than that it can be quite the anit-perk if you use a concealed unit to scout and your sniper decides to shoot. Almost worse than covering fire.

[DjAci]

@ hewhoispale

My point exactly regrading DFA. With highground you have a supersoldier, wtihout it, dead weight. That's why I proposed other perks providing tactical bonuses for other elevetion unrelated stuff (steady hands, +aim vs high cover). Not only will this enrich nest sniper tactical depth, it will also allow the soldier to be effective without high ground. Of course, some high ground bonus should remain as an integral part of nest sniper tactical use, but it should not be nearly as decisive.

Regarding conceal, I see it the same way. As an escape means. However, I cant imagine any1 justifying taking a TSGT perk (one competing with aggression) for such an unnecessary bonus. It's almost useless.

@ hewhoispale & darkerevent

I couldn't agree more that longwatch is probably the most useless perk in LW2 right now.

[hewhoispale]

@ hewhoispale

My point exactly regrading DFA. With highground you have a supersoldier, wtihout it, dead weight. That's why I proposed other perks providing tactical bonuses for other elevetion unrelated stuff (steady hands, +aim vs high cover). Not only will this enrich nest sniper tactical depth, it will also allow the soldier to be effective without high ground. Of course, some high ground bonus should remain as an integral part of nest sniper tactical use, but it should not be nearly as decisive.

Regarding conceal, I see it the same way. As an escape means. However, I cant imagine any1 justifying taking a TSGT perk (one competing with aggression) for such an unnecessary bonus. It's almost useless.

@ hewhoispale & darkerevent

I couldn't agree more that longwatch is probably the most useless perk in LW2 right now.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the nest sniper having this murder-spree when provided a specific requirement. My personal issue was the idea that untimed mission = bring nest sniper, when really, I needed to evaluate it with more nuance.

I'm curious as to what the incoming 1.3 "Marksman" tree buff(s) will do for the flat-ground sharpshooter. I already enjoy building a snap-shot user for timed missions in my primary team in the early game. If snap-shot can compete better against DFA, then a general purpose sharpshooter can be deployed more flexibly (and on more missions), leaving DFA snipers for fewer, more specialized missions where a nest can be assured for them. The main issue in my mind isn't that DFA is inflexible, it's that snap-shot is too weak. This results in the only decent sharpshooter builds are the inflexible DFA and the "spotter" build that people want to give an SMG to. A general-use "shooty" sharpshooter I think will help bring some balance here.

In regards to conceal having too high an opportunity cost in the Sharpshooter tree, I agree, that is probably true. It might be healthier to move it to a level with other defensive perks, as a sharpshooter is less likely to benefit from an investment of multiple defensive perks to start with. My personal feeling is that promotions are best balanced when the choices accomplish the same broad goal or theme (like Tsgt assault, or a number of the grenadier levels) with specializations on how to get it done.

Center mass vs Deadshot
Conceal vs Low Profile
Hunter's Instinct vs Aggression
Long Watch vs Kubikuri ? (Not sold here, but it should a choice of utility, not utility vs yet more raw damage)

[burns]

Now, that I think again about concealment, it can be kind of the solution to the problems with DFA snipers on GOps. They will still be better on high ground but if you can put the sniper in place within the first 2 turns (should be doable, with a grappling hook even more) they can support the team as usual, shoot and stock. Then, after the team has thrown the evac, completed the objective and left, the sniper can re-call for evac, conceal and leave safely at his position. RNFs on top of the head are a threat but as the sniper will most likely be positioned against the edge of the map, there should be some cover protection against 99% of the map.
This comes at the costly price of Aggression and needs very good planing in the first two turns, of course, and it has other draw backs if the enemy forces you to leave your optimal path or the map is just bad, but could both be good and fun. If only for being a little different.