Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

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Zyxpsilon
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Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Zyxpsilon » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:11 pm

That's really a frustrating aspect of that wicked gameplay principle.. we **MUST** suffer through a waste-bucket-load of skipped missions (the RNG can furthermore stick a tongue when such attempts are VERY important opportunities -- Bad Luck? BullShit!!) simply from the fact it's just impossible to even send a stealthed--single person squad under ANY rational conditions. I know we aren't meant to do every missions.. while we still can take weird decisions to abort anything to switch priorities -- when & if possible that is. :evil:

BUT.. there's already some cool workaround that allows us to increase such % (mostly preferable at or near expiration) for a flat 25 Intel. It's our prerogative to spend it all to somehow control the amount of expected enemies *IF* we prefer or not.

Although i've suggested another solution (with indirect proportional costs) in some ignored post three weeks ago, i still wish to offer ONE more type of indirect response to that somewhat ---silly--- rule.

-- Spend some extra Intel (pre-determined or not, btw) to RAISE the additional % limit(s) by 25%-50%-75%.. more.

PS; Calculate all you want with Suppressors, Perks & other bonus Hourly gimmicks... the 24-48 ghostly offers would always fail to draw anyone's attention in due time.

Please! ;)
Last edited by Zyxpsilon on Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chrisb
Terra Invicta Dev
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Re: Less than 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by chrisb » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:18 pm

If they did that, then they would have to make missions harder to detect which would only increase the number of missions that required boosting. The fact is you don't even detect a lot of missions that spawn, especially if you don't put all the rebels on intel.

The 'solution' is to put more rebels on intel, or recruit until you have the rebels to put on intel. If your putting 4 rebels on intel and expecting decent timers your dreaming unicorns and rainbows. Except maybe for troop columns, but they are easy to detect on purpose.

Liberation is different, they are hard to detect on purpose and often require an intel investment. Boosting missions is generally a bad idea outside of libs, your better off putting that intel into expanding and increasing your odds of good missions that way.

Zyxpsilon
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Zyxpsilon » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:29 pm

Rebels are MAXED in most regions for the better part of early months in my games already & i STILL get impossible odds to reach a mission site in time even while stealthed.

My point with this is rationally intended to give slightly more control over the decisions we should (or could) take to gain some sense of better impacts against the Aliens' great-big-agenda.

I just got yet another "Liberation--Rescue VIP" opportunity (THIRD so far.. in New-Brazil) & it clocked @34 hours!! Good-bye.. see ya in a few weeks -- again.

THAT's the silly loop i wish could just be tamed through bigger spending of INTEL.. by choice, rather than the current gameplay limits imposed by RNG.

chrisb
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by chrisb » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:52 pm

For liberation missions I agree, they likely need some tuning. They're very hard to detect with any good time. Pretty much always require 10+ rebels + Avenger + Scientist to get any reasonable time.

I think it's really just a matter of doing some tuning to the detection attributes, doesn't need a whole new mechanic that will unbalance so much of the rest of the game.

darkerevent
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by darkerevent » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:09 pm

This issue makes me happy that Dark VIP and Destroy Relay missions can be cheesed, even from very early on. Not sure what that will look like in 1.3 though.

Timer RNG in general is something I'd like to see looked at at some point, though I don't know enough about the math to suggest too much too directly.

Steve-O
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Steve-O » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:38 pm

Zyxpsilon wrote:Rebels are MAXED in most regions for the better part of early months in my games already & i STILL get impossible odds to reach a mission site in time even while stealthed.
Define "MAXED." How many rebels per region are we talking here?

Most regions begin with 4-6 rebels in my experience, and like Chris said, 4 rebels on Intel just plain isn't enough. 6 is not much different.
You need to recruit to increase rebel head count and put more people on Intel. Again, in my games, it takes a month or two to get headcount up at the very beginning of the game, so when you say rebels are "maxed" for the early months, I'm wondering just how many rebels per region you're talking about.

I usually keep two or three rebels on recruit (and staff a soldier to look for Faceless) and keep anyone left over on Intel. The first couple of months are a write-off, but once the number of rebels grows (and Faceless get weeded out), things start to pick up. I still see the occasional mission with 1 or 2 days, but for the most part I can safely ignore those. I don't have the manpower anyway.

chrisb
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by chrisb » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:28 pm

Steve-O wrote:
Zyxpsilon wrote:Rebels are MAXED in most regions for the better part of early months in my games already & i STILL get impossible odds to reach a mission site in time even while stealthed.
Define "MAXED." How many rebels per region are we talking here?

Most regions begin with 4-6 rebels in my experience, and like Chris said, 4 rebels on Intel just plain isn't enough. 6 is not much different.
You need to recruit to increase rebel head count and put more people on Intel. Again, in my games, it takes a month or two to get headcount up at the very beginning of the game, so when you say rebels are "maxed" for the early months, I'm wondering just how many rebels per region you're talking about.

I usually keep two or three rebels on recruit (and staff a soldier to look for Faceless) and keep anyone left over on Intel. The first couple of months are a write-off, but once the number of rebels grows (and Faceless get weeded out), things start to pick up. I still see the occasional mission with 1 or 2 days, but for the most part I can safely ignore those. I don't have the manpower anyway.
What I tend to do for the first 2 regions is just go max intel and bounce the avenger back and forth. You can only have 2 gops per region so once a region has 2, go to the other region to scan. I try to pickup the 3rd region quickly and get that on recruit right away. It's sort of a race against vigilance/time. The first two end up swarmed with strength within a few weeks, once the 3rd region is up to like 7-8 I switch to intel and scan there. Typically I'll go for a quick lib in the 3rd region while advent forces stay tied up in the first two.

I find that with the first two regions you often get enough rebels from jailbreaks that typically spawn early. And the missions for engi/sci are too important. Once a region is at 7-8 I find it worth it to go intel + scan to pop the jailbreaks. If they don't happen within the first 5-6 missions, go back to recruit if strength isn't high.

The only time I mix intel/recruit is when the strength is > 3 and troop columns are around. They don't take much intel to detect and gets you a chance at a rebel around every 5-6 days with 4 of them + soldier. My starting region is strength 7 right now and I have 7 intel + 4 recruit putting any I get on intel to pickup data leak or troop columns. Once I get the troop column I typically just hide the intel guys for 3 weeks, no other mission is worth doing at that point. Or if the intel raid is off CD then I might go full intel to bait that as well.

JoINrbs
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by JoINrbs » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:16 pm

darkerevent wrote:This issue makes me happy that Dark VIP and Destroy Relay missions can be cheesed, even from very early on. Not sure what that will look like in 1.3 though.

Timer RNG in general is something I'd like to see looked at at some point, though I don't know enough about the math to suggest too much too directly.
Having done quite a lot of analysis of the detection distributions for missions, the big problem I think is that most of them end up being approximately normal distributions centered on a number relative to how much intel you're producing. That means if someone is really good at producing intel (understands how to get lots of rebels in a haven, clear out the faceless, and when to have a science advisor or scan with an avenger) there isn't actually that much RNG involved, and they just consistently get good missions. On the other hand if someone is not great at producing intel, or rolling a lot of faceless in their haven just by chance, or something like that, they'll quite consistently get poor times on missions.

I think adding more variance to mission detections could help with this, or just generally increasing time remaining on activities.

dstar3k
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Re: Less than 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by dstar3k » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:06 pm

chrisb wrote:The 'solution' is to put more rebels on intel, or recruit until you have the rebels to put on intel. If your putting 4 rebels on intel and expecting decent timers your dreaming unicorns and rainbows. Except maybe for troop columns, but they are easy to detect on purpose.
How about A) If you have at least (8/7/6/5) rebels on intel in a region, you can boost infiltration twice, the second time for (37/25/16/12)%, and b) if you have more than (9/10/11/12) rebels on a single job in a region, you get an extra (10/8/5/3)% (all numbers in () depending on difficulty)? This would add another level of decision making to the strategic layer....

Shalon Wood

Zyxpsilon
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Zyxpsilon » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:37 am

JoINrbs wrote:I think adding more variance to mission detections could help with this, or just generally increasing time remaining on activities.
I certainly could settle for this indirect solution to an otherwise "clugged" pattern of badly low times to infiltrating in rational conditions -- aside from the usual boost of more Rebels on Intel & Avenger support.

For me.. MAXED == whatever is currently in the Havens are stuck on Intel for March/April & IF the Advisors are kept hunting for Faceless in them .. minus ONE on Recruit or Supply (I also often use RM's mod with extra Jobs to increase odds of Guerilla or Liberate at random -- once i get 10+/per). Soon after that Rush.. the third contacted Region serves as a "relief" effort to draw some strength away from the initial core duo.

But the whole trouble still stands on the highly variable NUMBER of offers & the fact that we must --Pick & Choose-- without knowing (precisely) the actual in-between ranges involved (sic--RNG). So.. either by accident or through risky earlier decisions (to infiltrate Z instead of Y or X) we can be forced into wasting some precious (calendar) time or Squad resources on a near hopeless gamble when.. IF we could just throw MORE Intel (by conscious decision) to expedite such transit missions -- we'd probably still have (or gain) a relatively good quality shot at other simultaneous (enough) offers --- except of course these silly 1-2 days tongue-in-cheek risks.

Thus why i'd prefer better control over Intel "timing" edges. BUT don't forget this kind of balance can tilt both ways, btw. Ar least.. i'd KNOW why my Intel flow is wacky or sensible enough during the first two-three months of important development spikes in terms of optimal Avenger & pace-keeping Research with Aliens not to mention combat strenghts counted in battlefield presence(s) of quality when they matter the most.

Otherwise.. the loop of bad RNG results (sadly, having to skip the perfectly & timely right mission at least once, etc) can kill a game before it even starts.

Goldenmonkey
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Goldenmonkey » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:40 am

Zyxpsilon wrote: For me.. MAXED == whatever is currently in the Havens are stuck on Intel for March/April & IF the Advisors are kept hunting for Faceless in them .. minus ONE on Recruit or Supply
Hmm, afaik, anything below 8 Rebels on intel makes it next to impossible to get good GOps missions. Have you tried putting all on recruit until you have at least 8?
Also, why 1 on supply? Isn't that a complete waste?

Steve-O
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Steve-O » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:59 pm

chrisb wrote: What I tend to do for the first 2 regions is just go max intel and bounce the avenger back and forth. You can only have 2 gops per region so once a region has 2, go to the other region to scan. I try to pickup the 3rd region quickly and get that on recruit right away. It's sort of a race against vigilance/time. The first two end up swarmed with strength within a few weeks, once the 3rd region is up to like 7-8 I switch to intel and scan there. Typically I'll go for a quick lib in the 3rd region while advent forces stay tied up in the first two.
Interesting strategy. I think I'll give that a go the next game I start.

Zyxpsilon
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Zyxpsilon » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:18 am

Goldenmonkey wrote:Also, why 1 on supply? Isn't that a complete waste?
True.. but it's most likely happening when my Havens have 10+ Rebels.

Yet, the trick with acquiring MANY rebels rapidly.. is that Advent Strength(s) tends to push attention to these regions to match me. I still have to find a somewhat balanced way to multi-task the optimal variations based on calendar conditions. Serious factors to consider.. aside from steady Intel -- supply needs to provide minimal flows which start to get better from May+ only.

I think the overall scheduling is wacky because the "Smash&Grab" (v1.3) concept missions are missing. As if LW2 was thought of with such gameplay parts all active from the get go.

Almost every single time i load a Save for example.. there's a rush of Missions that spawn consecutively -- 5+ at times! There's just no way to pick the absolutely right type without considering HOW & WHEN the best squads are available to at least give a fair chance at anything. I'm starting to feel they'll need to revise these cycles to be a little less "compressed". IMHO, it's nearly absurd to just Click--Off that many missions for no other reasons than creating such a busy Geoscape. Between quality & quantity -- we presently get some illusions of challenges rather than deterministic conditions.

Rarely do i get a feel of meeting with the proper tactical steps. More like -- shuffling tasks in chaos. :shock: Which --indeed-- makes sense in terms of ---"LongWar'ily"--- magical design elements.

Goldenmonkey
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Re: Less than 1 or 2 Days for Infiltration(s).. SOLUTION.

Post by Goldenmonkey » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:19 am

Zyxpsilon wrote:
Goldenmonkey wrote:Also, why 1 on supply? Isn't that a complete waste?
True.. but it's most likely happening when my Havens have 10+ Rebels.
I don't understand. If you get missions on too short timers, why waste a whole rebel then? put him on intel. you get suplies from corpses and liberated regions?
Yet, the trick with acquiring MANY rebels rapidly.. is that Advent Strength(s) tends to push attention to these regions to match me. I still have to find a somewhat balanced way to multi-task the optimal variations based on calendar conditions. Serious factors to consider.. aside from steady Intel -- supply needs to provide minimal flows which start to get better from May+ only.
Advent flows to regions with high vigilance. Do only 1-2 missions a week in a region and you are fine.
I disagree on the supply. I prefer having my supplies coming in in bulk and then spend all of it. preferably matching with new tech. If you have a low supply income, your upkeep and faceless losses take away most of it, also the time to pick up a low amount supply drop is wasted.
Almost every single time i load a Save for example.. there's a rush of Missions that spawn consecutively -- 5+ at times! There's just no way to pick the absolutely right type without considering HOW & WHEN the best squads are available to at least give a fair chance at anything. I'm starting to feel they'll need to revise these cycles to be a little less "compressed". IMHO, it's nearly absurd to just Click--Off that many missions for no other reasons than creating such a busy Geoscape. Between quality & quantity -- we presently get some illusions of challenges rather than deterministic conditions.
I am not 100% sure I understand what you are trying to say. I suggest, you look at your geoscape and think where you want to concentrate your actions. I want to liberate region a, generate supply raid/troop columns in region b, avoid retal in region c+d+e, push strength to region f etc.
As for considering HOW & WHEN you use your best squads; You are supposed to ba making tough choices on which missions you choose AND what soldiers go where. You are supposed to feel stretched thin. You are the underdog, you are a guerilla force.
Rarely do i get a feel of meeting with the proper tactical steps. More like -- shuffling tasks in chaos. :shock: Which --indeed-- makes sense in terms of ---"LongWar'ily"--- magical design elements.
The thing is, that the mechanics are not really easy to understand. I read a lot about them and I still struggle a lot. Expecially geoscape management. In theory, you can direct advent where you want them to go and cause them to give you good missions. In practice, it is very hard. I highly suggest Xwynns and Joinrbs videos on YT.

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