Pistols (underused) and AWC

Nibelung44
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Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Nibelung44 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:54 am

A suggestion to broaden the possible strategies: have a slot in the AWC dedicated to pistols perking. This would allow at least some of our soldiers to use it with some regularity.

That the standards perks and the pistols perks compete for AWC slots mean that 99% of the time, you won't perk a soldier in pistols. With a dedicated slot, you would probably end up with some having pistols skills.

And pistol means -1 move (or one less item), so... it is not a freebee in all case.

JoINrbs
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by JoINrbs » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:40 am

They're only underused because people don't realize they're absurdly strong though.

Goldenmonkey
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Goldenmonkey » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:54 am

JoINrbs wrote:They're only underused because people don't realize they're absurdly strong though.
Agree. This suggestion would make the game a lot easier. If you get all the pistol perks you have so much dmg output, without spending any actions...

JM01
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by JM01 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:09 pm

Wait a minute I am confused.... isn't the entire middle column of the AWC dedicated to pistol perks only? Like I'm pretty sure if you train a soldier all the way down the middle you will have all of the OP pistol perks like fan fire, quick draw, lightning hands and face off. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have never seen anything other than a pistol perk in the awc middle column.

Also I do agree that once you have a soldier trained for all of the pistol perks they are WAY strong. I have just recently had a soldier in the AWC learn most of the pistol perks and now I almost use exclusively only the pistol with them (good too because I feel a use for the shadow keeper again since it at least has better aim and damage than the standard pistols :P).

LordYanaek
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by LordYanaek » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:24 pm

JoINrbs wrote:They're only underused because people don't realize they're absurdly strong though.
That.
I play with AWC perks revealed so i know when i will get some juicy T3 perks hidden behind crappy T1-T2 and yet when i see Lethal or Serial after Biggest boom and Sapper i'm not sure i'll bother training them. Probably not until i have some good pistol builds first. I don't understand how people playing with AWC perks hidden can actually go for anything but pistol.
Nibelung44 wrote:A suggestion to broaden the possible strategies: have a slot in the AWC dedicated to pistols perking. This would allow at least some of our soldiers to use it with some regularity.
I'm almost tempted to support your suggestion, it would allow some soldiers to train non pistol perks :mrgreen:
Regular perks are fun and sometimes powerful but pistol perks are always efficient. If you want to go for efficiency you should always go for pistol perks.

Sorbicol
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Sorbicol » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:27 pm

the thing that struck me with pistols during my Veteran play through was that pistols didn't really add anything to the game. The "optimal" builds for each class didn't really have anything spare to diversify into pistols, and it was entirely dependent on what AWC perks came up when you put them in for training. Personally I would either remove the snapshot sniper build and replace it with the old gunslinger build, or incorporate it into the shinobi class (where as a scout class pistols would work quite well I feel)

For everything else I genuinely think diversifying into a pistol build (and lets not forget the amount of "Dead" training time that takes) just wasn't strong enough to replace whatever else you could do with a class via the normal ability unlocks as they get when promoted. So I never bothered. I think the entire campaign of 166 missions I had about 2 intances where I was glad I had a sniper with some pistol skills. I had fan fire on one specialist, but while "nice" on occasion, I more often that not ran that specialist without a pistol rather than with one. More often that not it was more useful to use the spare utility slot for something else.

Goldenmonkey
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Goldenmonkey » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:38 pm

JM01 wrote:Wait a minute I am confused.... isn't the entire middle column of the AWC dedicated to pistol perks only? Like I'm pretty sure if you train a soldier all the way down the middle you will have all of the OP pistol perks like fan fire, quick draw, lightning hands and face off. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have never seen anything other than a pistol perk in the awc middle column.

Also I do agree that once you have a soldier trained for all of the pistol perks they are WAY strong. I have just recently had a soldier in the AWC learn most of the pistol perks and now I almost use exclusively only the pistol with them (good too because I feel a use for the shadow keeper again since it at least has better aim and damage than the standard pistols :P).
I think OP means an extra slot in the awc to train an extra soldier for pistols only, not a column for perks

Veneficus
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Veneficus » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:00 pm

I train all of my low aim sharpshooters, you know the ones that seem to finish gatecrasher with a 61 aim and somehow get promoted to sharpshooter, or those rescued sharpshooters that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn standing inside it, but somehow are promoted to sharpshooter, will pistol perks.

Between the proximity, the holo-targeting tree , and the insane amount of damage they can deal in a turn, it really makes them usable. The low aim sharpshooters just don't work as long range snipers at all, time in the AWC is better than dismissing them.

Nibelung44
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Nibelung44 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:05 pm

Well, if the pistol perk tree is 'go strong or don't', then it is very suboptimal. So either you never touch it, or 2-3 of your soldiers spend 45 days each in the AWC tube and end up unbalancing the game. great :?

JulianSkies
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by JulianSkies » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:15 pm

Nibelung44 wrote:Well, if the pistol perk tree is 'go strong or don't', then it is very suboptimal. So either you never touch it, or 2-3 of your soldiers spend 45 days each in the AWC tube and end up unbalancing the game. great
Not quite so, it's powerful yes but not all powerful. Also with some luck you can get certain perks early, greatly reducing training time. Fur example I had a Specialist start with Fan Fire, then Quickdraw. Didn't go back to the tube until... Didn't at all actually.

Autoclave
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Autoclave » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:15 pm

Pistols are amazing, but they require some forward planning with AWC and class perks. The class that gains the most from pistols are snipers. I am against pistols replacing snapshot as our friend above proposed. The reasoning is that there are some very good sniper synergy perks with pistols:
1. Center mass
2. Aggression
3. Hunter instincts
4. Deadshot or whatever the +10% crit perk is named.
5. Death from above

These perks make pistol usage extremely consistent. Exposed targets take extra +3 damage. And you got a high crit chance as well. Faceoff works extremely well on underinfiltrated high number of pods missions. You can hit more than dozen of enemies with faceoff. Oh and i got bring'em on also on my sniper's AWC. It's a one man army.

Assaults are the second best candidates in terms of power and utility they get from pistols. They are less consistent against smaller pods, But aggression, killer instinct and bring em on damage scales incredibly when you have 16 enemies in your sight. A mag pistol with talon rounds for example can do 3-6 damage + 16 crit damage. Amazing.
Pistol do complement well shotguns. However, you might find assault AoE enough for your needs while their AIM not big enough for pistol usage.

Rangers, i tried them with pistols, but the functionality overlaps with rifle honestly. If you see faceoff early in AWC, then perhaps it is worth going the left side of the ranger perk tree.
Gunners, way too situational. Overaps with machine gun functionality.
Specialists, not enough slots, low aim, not enough AP to shoot pistols.
Shinobi. They got hunter's instincts. Fanfire can do tremendous amounts of damage on flanked targets. Worth experimenting with.
Tehnicals, too situational. May be try with panic flamer to finish targets off after flaming..
Grenadiers, low aim, no damage perks, i cannot see how it will work.

I would like officers to gain a free pistol slot however. I think it makes sense for them to have one.

killymckillface
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by killymckillface » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:28 pm

Might be time for a new gunslinger class.
Duel pistols. Pew Pew.
Or pistol, sword kinda thing. Thats well crap at anything over 5 squares

ndessell
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by ndessell » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:05 pm

JoINrbs wrote:They're only underused because people don't realize they're absurdly strong though.
Im going to kindly disagree. they are at best ok alternatives to most classes regular skills.

chrisb
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by chrisb » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:27 pm

ndessell wrote:
JoINrbs wrote:They're only underused because people don't realize they're absurdly strong though.
Im going to kindly disagree. they are at best ok alternatives to most classes regular skills.
Only one class matters though.

JoINrbs
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by JoINrbs » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:40 pm

ndessell wrote:
JoINrbs wrote:They're only underused because people don't realize they're absurdly strong though.
Im going to kindly disagree. they are at best ok alternatives to most classes regular skills.
my goto response to that is https://clips.twitch.tv/NastyGiftedLlamaANELE

the faceoff where i run to the bathroom and back before it finishes animating is pretty solid too: https://youtu.be/yo3ZP7qnZS0?t=6m15s

ndessell
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by ndessell » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:39 pm

JoINrbs wrote:
ndessell wrote:
JoINrbs wrote:They're only underused because people don't realize they're absurdly strong though.
Im going to kindly disagree. they are at best ok alternatives to most classes regular skills.
my goto response to that is https://clips.twitch.tv/NastyGiftedLlamaANELE

the faceoff where i run to the bathroom and back before it finishes animating is pretty solid too: https://youtu.be/yo3ZP7qnZS0?t=6m15s
sure and how do they turn out the other 99.99% of the time.

JoINrbs
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by JoINrbs » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:11 pm

it's not abnormal for one soldier's pistol perks to be dealing 45 damage in a turn as you enter the latter stages of the game, and earlier on in the game abilities like lightning hands, clutch shot, and fanfire are extremely strong.

ndessell
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by ndessell » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:22 pm

JoINrbs wrote:it's not abnormal for one soldier's pistol perks to be dealing 45 damage in a turn as you enter the latter stages of the game, and earlier on in the game abilities like lightning hands, clutch shot, and fanfire are extremely strong.
You say that like 45 damage over multiple shots is impressive.

chrisb
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by chrisb » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:36 pm

ndessell wrote:
JoINrbs wrote:it's not abnormal for one soldier's pistol perks to be dealing 45 damage in a turn as you enter the latter stages of the game, and earlier on in the game abilities like lightning hands, clutch shot, and fanfire are extremely strong.
You say that like 45 damage over multiple shots is impressive.
So not so much 'kindly disagreeing'.

It's not like what you see in those videos is uncommon at all. You asked about the other 99% of the time, pretty much the same. It's not hard to do if you know what your doing with them.

Goldenmonkey
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Goldenmonkey » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:15 am

ndessell wrote:
JoINrbs wrote:it's not abnormal for one soldier's pistol perks to be dealing 45 damage in a turn as you enter the latter stages of the game, and earlier on in the game abilities like lightning hands, clutch shot, and fanfire are extremely strong.
You say that like 45 damage over multiple shots is impressive.
Keep in mind, pistols are a bonus on top of your current dmg. You are not limited to pistols alone. You can often use your standard weapon + the pistol.

fowlJ
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by fowlJ » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:47 pm

ndessell wrote:
JoINrbs wrote:it's not abnormal for one soldier's pistol perks to be dealing 45 damage in a turn as you enter the latter stages of the game, and earlier on in the game abilities like lightning hands, clutch shot, and fanfire are extremely strong.
You say that like 45 damage over multiple shots is impressive.
'Multiple shots' is irrelevant. It's the actions you're spending that matter, and pistols are preposterously action-efficient. Like, exploding two or three separate pods with Faceoff is a single action - you can do other things on your turn in addition to that. That skill alone is competitive with a lot of high rank perks (especially in combination with other abilities that can elevate it from 'pretty good' to 'downright broken'), for the cost of as little as 9 days AWC time and a utility slot.

darkerevent
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by darkerevent » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:51 pm

Faceoff ranks preeeetty high on the list of abilities that I think should be cut from the game for their sheer unrealism (bullet time that lets a character shoot 30 guys spread all over the place in a single action with a pistol? Wat.) as well as potential brokenness (lol Shadowstrike/Aggression/BEO/etc.).

Just imo. Much like how I feel about shredstorm cannons, I hate that it's so overpowered that not using it means I'm playing sub-optimally, especially given that it's such a goofy and unrealistic ability.

fowlJ
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by fowlJ » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:02 pm

I think it'd be a shame to cut it entirely, because I personally love how goofy and awesome it is, but the way it interacts with Shadowstrike etc. should probably be adjusted in some way, yes.

darkerevent
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by darkerevent » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:10 pm

fowlJ wrote:I think it'd be a shame to cut it entirely, because I personally love how goofy and awesome it is, but the way it interacts with Shadowstrike etc. should probably be adjusted in some way, yes.
I should clarify that I'm an immersion curmudgeon who usually hates things happening in a tactical sim if they wouldn't at least arguably be able to happen within the presumed several-second timeframe that each turn represents. I realize not everyone feels that way though.

Mechanically and in terms of balance, Faceoff's many mathematical interactions are certainly the issue. It's not some kind of superpowered ability otherwise, but boy-oh-boy does it interact potently with perks!

Alketi
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Re: Pistols (underused) and AWC

Post by Alketi » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:30 pm

Yep, Faceoff works great through high cover, especially with +Defense and +Tac Sense stacking.

Who has time to pop "two or three" pods? Three pods? Are you guys running 0% Supply Raids? Are you setting up hour-long ambushes with True Concealment? Some of us are doing neither. Maybe if you're running 0% Supply Raids then you've power-leveled your soldiers to the point where you have MSGTs with laser weapons and can freely train all the way down the AWC, but the rest of us are prevented from power-AWC training by the natural leveling process.

This is a 9-day skill that, for all these "broken" advantages, must be trained on one of only a couple of classes that get crit bonuses, it's location on the AWC is random (I'm just getting it mid-August on my Assault and haven't even had a chance to use it yet), and it's greatest (safest) use is as an opener. Beyond the opener, you need to do something risky like Run & Gun behind enemy lines to enjoy any non-high cover shots with it. Why is it such a problem to wait possibly to mid-campaign to enjoy an occasional AOE opener that's improved with crit bonuses on a couple of classes??

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