Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Zedy
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Zedy »

LordYanaek wrote:
Zedy wrote:
chrisb wrote:Ah, that was just added as I was writing this.

I wonder where that gets added to? A squaddie perk?
It's a new base psi op perk, can also be gotten as a level 1 AWC perk
Do you have any real insight or is it some weird joke?
When i saw it i feared it would be a new (and totally unbalanced) continental bonus but if it's a Psi Op perk to help them catch up on tank time with other soldiers it would sure be nice.

Anybody else noticed the Jedi mind trick added to Psi Ops (reduced infiltration). That will sure make them easier to fit in squads.

I really like Trial By Fire BTW.
Bilfdoffle said so on reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/ ... nt/dg34vmy
Steve-O
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Steve-O »

chrisb wrote: Radio Relays
... And I also like the narritive aspect of it. I remember having the thought before, if we're taking down a broadcast tower, why can't we use it afterwards?
Because it's an ADVENT radio tower, which means they already know where it's located - and that's presumably somewhere they've already taken steps to fortify. (You're sneaking into the tower under concealment, so there are probably checkpoints and guard stations all around the area that you bypassed to strike at their heart.) It's unlikely that ADVENT wouldn't notice someone else setting up shop in the tower the day after their own broadcast was suddenly interrupted. Also, the tower seems to be using at least some alien tech, which means they could more easily detect any signal you send out as they already know the hardware. (If the tower is free, that suggests you aren't spending time and resources tearing out the alien tech and replacing with your own.) So, narratively speaking, commandeering an ADVENT radio tower for the resistance means you're occupying a location they already know about and using tech they previously owned to send out your own signal. Seems like a great way to get caught, if you ask me.

Not that I'm complaining about free radio towers, mind you. ;)

In terms of game balance, I agree that it's a great incentive to liberate more than just one region (especially more than your starting region.) I can certainly use all the help I can get in LW2, so I don't mind this at all. Narratively though, it seems like a poor strategy, in-universe.
zechstyr
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by zechstyr »

chrisb wrote: Soul Steal
Soulfire transfers half of the damage done back to the Psi Operative as health or grants an ablative HP if you are uninjured

Rise of the PsiTank! :lol:

Yesssss that was my suggestion!
LordYanaek
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by LordYanaek »

OK. So now that i had a little more time to go through all of this text.

Strategic Changes
Between the announced (but unknown) changes to stealth and 0% missions, I expect a pretty different strategic game in 1.3. Some of those changes might be the emerging part of a much bigger iceberg. I sure hope stealth stays a viable option, but it should really be an option, not the only option and not something optimal.
SmashandGrab
The new mission is obviously eagerly awaited. We'll see how they play.
RadioRelays
A nice boost to liberation. I wonder if it means normal Radio Relays will become more expansive to slow down horizontal spread and put more emphasis on liberation. It always looked wrong to me that you would liberate your first region and then ignore liberation completely to rush the storyline missions.
I'll just rationalize that you can recover broadcast equipment and install it some place where ADVENT doesn't have eyes. ;)
Hiding
Looks like a simple clarification.
TrialByFire
This is an officer perk but i put it here as it could be what we need to grow our barracks in the mid game and field more squads when things "get interesting", allowing less pure stealth missions. I hope it doesn't come too late or it would just end up a negligible bonus to the late game but if it comes at an officer rank you can achieve by June it would really help turn those rookies you can finally recruit into something useful. I fear late game rookies will still end up being suicide fodder but obviously there must be a limit to the "free" leveling. I was among those who suggested some sort of training helper for new recruits so i'm really pleased to see this coming (even thought i suspect Joinrbs words on this issue had more impact than mine :lol: )

Equipment
Few changes
Grenade Launcher
Did you notice this one lost it's AoE bonus. Incendiary grenades eat a nerf in the process. I hope it means it's available earlier.
Flashbang Grenade
This definitely makes sense and hopefully we'll have other tools when those "powerful enemies" show up.
Supressor
Simple clarification, no change


Perks
A lot of changes, and maybe more that we can't really see such as perks moving around in the trees.
Rupture
No auto-crit is a small nerf. I'm not sure rupture required one and i don't think it will make the perk bad, not much of a change for me but maybe someone found a way to abuse it that i didn't.
Coup De Grace
Now it will probably become useful. A good bonus to hit and crit can probably push a sword close to 100% for both in order to take down those Archons when they are disabled. Still requires attacking disabled enemies but at least i can see it as something useful to get rid of annoying enemies.
Whirlwind
More than the previous one, this is a nice boost to melee builds. Being able to move back to cover even if you didn't kill your target is great. It will probably replace Implacable thought and i used to like that one for my rifle shinobis.
ChainLightning
Faceoff
Much deserved nerfs. It was fun to freeze 16 enemies out of cover for 2 full rounds but a little silly. Faceoff will stop being an OP opener, well, we have other good openers but i hope they won't remove all of them each time the next best opener becomes the best one after the previous best one have been removed.
Formidable
This one gets an interesting treatment being buffed and nerfed with a single change. It will be better for an occasional hit, but worse to build the ultimate tank. All in all i think it will be better balanced as the possibly abusive use is nerfed while the "legit" use is buffed.
SnapShot
A nice boost from my PoV. Overwatching was never my favorite action with a sharpshooter but being able to take normal squadsight shots if i don't move or move to a closer position if i don't have LoS (or i'm on a timed mission) brings a lot of versatility to the sharpshooter.
CloseEncounters
HitandRun
Both of those now provide the same benefit in different situations. One is better for Shotgun users, the other for rifle users. None can be abused with RnG to take 3 shots anymore. They become real alternatives depending on your build.
Flush
A nice little boost to a usually useless skill. We'll see if it's enough to make it attractive compared to crushing cover with more ammunition than before.
BiggestBooms
Bugfix.
CoveringFire
OK. Now that's good. CF will now apply a mild CC effect on any targets shot at (you don't need to actually hit) and it trigger before they actually shoot at you. That 10% reduction in aim might not look like a lot but it can save lives.
OTOH, we'll hate Advent Sentries even more :evil:
Serial
It was to be expected and brings it to it's LW1 (In the zone) level and makes it more similar to reaper. I would probably have preferred a proper fix to the broken interaction with Autoloaders as Serial wasn't broken on it's own but it might be easier to implement this way.
Phosphorus
A small shred effect is nice but it looks like it's fixed and won't grow with better Gauntlets. The description doesn't say it shreds only armor on mechanical targets so it will probably also shred armor on organic enemies and that might be the main benefit of taking this perk.

Psi Operatives
Another big topic. Many changes have been discussed and many were awaiting a boost to Psi Ops. Those now known upcoming changes leave me slightly sceptical but it's hard to guess how they will interact with each other without actually testing the game so i'll reserve my judgment.
Quick Study
A fun boost to make training AWC and officer perks an option and compensate for Psi Tank time. Strong as an AWC perk for other classes, not sure how much Psi Ops themselves will benefit from it. It will make Psi officers an option (and those would be the absolute best Faceless hunters) but many AWC abilities (including the entire pistol tree) won't be very useful with the Psi Ops crappy aim. It's a free bonus so i won't complain.
Jedi Mind Trick
Hidden in the Psi Amp description is the suggested (by "i don't remember who") Jedi Mind Trick to reduce infiltration time for Psi Ops. This looks like some sort of stunt to make them more viable without boosting their skills to possibly OP levels and is certainly an option but ultimately since you have to invest much more in Psi Ops to get them available than any other class, they will need useful skills if they are to see any action at all.
Fuse
:( One of the best Psi Ops skills gets a nerf when almost everyone considers them underpowered. For the first skill change it's a disappointment. Hopefully it's a very short cooldown that's mostly there to avoid command into multiple fuse.
SoulSteal
Interesting and from the description is looks like you can stack multiple ablative HP. It fixes one of the biggest flaws of this skill : the requirement to be wounded first to be useful, and since it can actually prevent infirmary downtime, it might become much more attractive than it was. My only regret is that it looks like it's a fixed 1 HP gain rather than some small fraction of damage dealt that might eventually grow to 2 by the end (when aliens hit really hard)
Mind Merge
And Mind Merge get back the crit bonus from LW1. This was probably one of the easiest changes to make it more attractive. The boost can be significant with Soul Merge easily throwing a partial crit build to 100% crit chance. I can see some nice synergies with Rangers. I suggested this change (certainly among other players) so i'm of course glad to see it. :)
Solace
Does it become an action? Does it cost and action? Does it end your turn? Hard to guess how it was changed.
It was probably changed because of reported FPS drops but it was a useful ability before the changes. I have a hard time knowing how much it looses power but i can't help feel like it's a pretty significant nerf. You'll likely have to use an action now. You won't be able to help multiple squadmates. You're no longer immune to those effects yourself. Finally, it's another Psi ability that will directly compare with a Specilaist ability (Mind Merge was often viewed as a poor man's Aid Protocol before it's boost, now at least it has a unique and potentially powerful effect) and i'm not sure this will help the Psi Op. I'll have to see how it actually works.
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johnnylump
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by johnnylump »

Solace takes an action and is non-turn ending. And while I couldn't reproduce the bug people described, this at least lets you use it at range. It's cheap and early on the Psi tree, so it'll stand in for Revival Protocol in a lot of situations.
DonCrabio
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by DonCrabio »

I can't understand Formidable nerf, really. It's only use was armor stacking, now it's gone, what point of taking it now? Any late game shot will penetrate it, even with graze.
stefan3iii
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by stefan3iii »

DonCrabio wrote:I can't understand Formidable nerf, really. It's only use was armor stacking, now it's gone, what point of taking it now? Any late game shot will penetrate it, even with graze.
It's a buff for most of the game, as it'll reduce wounds and reduce the chances of being one shot. That said, it'd be nice if it scaled with armor tech. Like if it gave +3 ablative with Predator, and +4 with Warden.
mr.Manul
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by mr.Manul »

It's a buff for most of the game, as it'll reduce wounds and reduce the chances of being one shot. That said, it'd be nice if it scaled with armor tech. Like if it gave +3 ablative with Predator, and +4 with Warden.
That would be fantastic. Devs, please implement this little change!
DonCrabio
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by DonCrabio »

stefan3iii wrote: It's a buff for most of the game, as it'll reduce wounds and reduce the chances of being one shot. That said, it'd be nice if it scaled with armor tech. Like if it gave +3 ablative with Predator, and +4 with Warden.
This will be another story, I like this idea. 2 ablative HP make sense only early game, then you can exchange perk point for one equipment slot. Mid game it will be half of slot and late game it will be almost nothing.
Dlareh
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Dlareh »

Agreed on Formidable scaling with armor tech, great idea. Falls off too fast in mid/endgame otherwise.

Watching xwynns' video, the changes look amazingly good so far for the classes he covers there (he skipped over Sharpshooter since it's still being worked out)

I'll be curious to find out what they're doing to Sharpshooters besides making snap shot reasonably decent instead of terrible
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
josna238
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by josna238 »

Flush:

In a Shreder gunner could make a decent tandem with a ranger overwatcher against mutons and things so. Ranger do a locked on shot and gets overwatch. Gunner uses flush to shreder armor and add +10/+10. Ranger overwatcher hit three times (and maybe some critical). I say because I have used a High aim overwatcher with aim thingslike perception, laser, tracer, scopes... and I have never saw him miss a single shot on exposed/low cover enemies (and he did more than a hundred...)
DerAva
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by DerAva »

Except that you can only hit the same target once. There's a new restriction on Rapid Reaction and Sentinel so that overwatch shots need to be on separate targets.
And while we're talking about this restriction: when does this counter reset? If I overwatch during my own turn with Rapid Reaction and take a single overwatch shot at an enemy, will I get another OW shot against him in the alien turn, or is the limit from my own turn still active at that point? What about getting an overwatch hit on the enemy turn and then using overwatch+flush on the player turn, has the counter reset at this point?
LordYanaek
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by LordYanaek »

DerAva wrote:Except that you can only hit the same target once. There's a new restriction on Rapid Reaction and Sentinel so that overwatch shots need to be on separate targets.
Oh, i wasn't aware of that change, there is nothing in the translation strings to explain this. Is it official?
I think this would actually be a boost to overwatch shots, especially with the new covering fire debuff, as combined with CC ammo (venom/dragon) it means shutting down or applying high aim penalties on multiple enemies. I hated when my dragon round equipped OW ranger lost a second (sometimes third) shot on the same burning enemy!
Tuhalu
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Tuhalu »

LordYanaek wrote:
DerAva wrote:Except that you can only hit the same target once. There's a new restriction on Rapid Reaction and Sentinel so that overwatch shots need to be on separate targets.
Oh, i wasn't aware of that change, there is nothing in the translation strings to explain this. Is it official?
I think this would actually be a boost to overwatch shots, especially with the new covering fire debuff, as combined with CC ammo (venom/dragon) it means shutting down or applying high aim penalties on multiple enemies. I hated when my dragon round equipped OW ranger lost a second (sometimes third) shot on the same burning enemy!
Xwynns (legend difficulty beta tester) made a video about the perk changes so far. It's been linked two or three times in this thread already. Please go watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rWWX51gNvc
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Zloth
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Zloth »

I like the sound of the perk changes but what happens with my current soldiers? I'm certainly not going to be able to shove them all through the AWC for re-training! I don't see a console command for resetting soldiers but maybe it just isn't on the wiki list? Or maybe installing the patch will just automatically untrain everyone?

There's a command for resetting AWC perks but that also re-rolls them. For a few of my soldiers, a re-roll would very likely mangle their build completely.
Autoclave wrote:Would someone rather tell me how to disable updating in steam? It looks like this option is completely gone and forces me to play latest version regardless. I really don't want to deal with all these 1.3 changes in my current campaign.
I don't think it is possible unless something has changed in the past few years.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views…
-- Doctor Who in "Face of Evil"
LordYanaek
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by LordYanaek »

Zloth wrote:I like the sound of the perk changes but what happens with my current soldiers? I'm certainly not going to be able to shove them all through the AWC for re-training!
That's exactly what you'll do ... after reducing retrain time to 0 days ;)
Just edit XComGameData.ini find the respec lines and set them to zero like this

Code: Select all

; This is multiplied per rank!
XComHeadquarters_DefaultRespecSoldierDays[0]=0
XComHeadquarters_DefaultRespecSoldierDays[1]=0; Normal
XComHeadquarters_DefaultRespecSoldierDays[2]=0; Classic
XComHeadquarters_DefaultRespecSoldierDays[3]=0; Impossible
But remember the real value so you can set it back to it when you are done and you won't cheat with free respec the whole campaign
Dlareh wrote: I'll be curious to find out what they're doing to Sharpshooters besides making snap shot reasonably decent instead of terrible
They are probably trying to find something to replace conceal. They can't leave it at the current rank or sharpshooters will just become the new chease class for stealth missions, but it's totally non-viable as a MSgt perk for sharpshooters (i'm not even sure it's viable for shinobis at that rank) so it have to be replaced by something else.
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Zloth
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Zloth »

Oh! OK, that will work. Thanks LordYanaek!
wizard1200
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by wizard1200 »

Shinobi:

Blademaster should increase the damage by 1 and the critical chance by 10 % to make the perk useful early, mid and late game.

Conceal should have 2 charges and a cooldown of 3 turns that starts when the character breaks concealment or when he activates the perk to make it an interesting MSGT perk.


Grenadier:

The environmental damage of Sapper should be increased by 2 and the environmental damage of Combat Engineer should be reduced by 2 to make cover destruction possible not only at the center of an explosion during the early game.

Ghost Grenade should have 2 charges and a cooldown of 3 turns that starts when the character breaks concealment or when he activates the perk to make it an interesting MSGT perk.

Boosted Cores should increase the damage by 1, the critical chance by 25 % and the critical damage by 1 to make grenadiers who specialize on damage as useful as grenadiers who specialize on crowd control.

Biggest Booms should increase the damage by 1, the critical chance by 25 % and the critical damage by 1 to make grenadiers who specialize on damage as useful as grenadiers who specialize on crowd control.
LordYanaek
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by LordYanaek »

wizard1200 wrote: Conceal should have 2 charges and a cooldown of 3 turns that starts when the character breaks concealment or when he activates the perk to make it an interesting MSGT perk.
I can't agree more. As a MSgt perk it might even be completely cooldown based for me. It was moved to MSgt not because it was too strong in combat but because it was abused in stealth missions but the result is that now, as a MSgt perk the only reason to justify it is for that stealth abuse while it should actually be a perk allowing the scout-fighter shinobi to resume scouting after he had to help the squad during a tough fight.
Making it purely cooldown based won't make it stronger for abuse as you don't need to use it more than once when you are just trying to escape with the content of a chest or after calling the evac, OTOH it would help the scout-fighter/assassin builds and appear like something that can actually be useful outside of pure stealth full shinobi operations and it would justify it's place as a MSgt perk.
In Vanilla XCOM2 it was a rank4 (LW2 Sgt) perk while the lower number of enemies on the map made it stronger as a fighter skill (2 Shadowstrike attacks was a big deal in vanilla, not so much in LW2). Now it's supposed to be one of the strongest skills of that class :shock: It's only that strong because it was used to chease through stealth missions but it's normal use got hit harder than the chease :cry:
The environmental damage of Sapper should be increased by 2 and the environmental damage of Combat Engineer should be reduced by 2 to make cover destruction possible not only at the center of an explosion during the early game.
I don't think so. Environmental damage of sapper is fair for a LCpl perk, the issue is that damage falls off too fast and as a result it won't break anything further than the center tile. I think Sapper should reduce the damage falloff and Combat Engineer reduce it further if we want to be able to destroy more than 1 tile which is the real reason why Sapper is quite bad : for single tile cover destruction Demolition is just plain better and Sapper can't destroy more than 1 tile.
dstar3k
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by dstar3k »

LordYanaek wrote:
wizard1200 wrote:The environmental damage of Sapper should be increased by 2 and the environmental damage of Combat Engineer should be reduced by 2 to make cover destruction possible not only at the center of an explosion during the early game.
I don't think so. Environmental damage of sapper is fair for a LCpl perk, the issue is that damage falls off too fast and as a result it won't break anything further than the center tile. I think Sapper should reduce the damage falloff and Combat Engineer reduce it further if we want to be able to destroy more than 1 tile which is the real reason why Sapper is quite bad : for single tile cover destruction Demolition is just plain better and Sapper can't destroy more than 1 tile.
I think actually that Sapper would be better if Plasma Grenades actually had a higher environmental damage than regular grenades. Given the comment about them not doing more damage 'in the absence of specialized training', maybe Sapper should give it's current bonus to regular grenades, and double or triple that for Plasma Grenades, enough to have a tiny chance to destroy the harder forms of cover (...hmm. Or, maybe, in addition to the flat bonus, the +/- 20% range should get a 20% bonus, so that it's +20-40%, along with halving the falloff? But I _still_ think plasma grenades should do more environmental damage at least for grenadiers.)
Sax2514
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Sax2514 »

I would like to know how we should be able to deal if one or more strong enemies don't get affected by a flashbang, and if we don't have someone who can suppress. For example: 2 elite rocketeers who are far away each other and both resisted the flashbang. Should I let my team get entirely damaged by 2 rockets, with armor shredded and cover destroyed (which basically means squad wipe?)
RantingRodent
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by RantingRodent »

Sax2514 wrote:I would like to know how we should be able to deal if one or more strong enemies don't get affected by a flashbang, and if we don't have someone who can suppress. For example: 2 elite rocketeers who are far away each other and both resisted the flashbang. Should I let my team get entirely damaged by 2 rockets, with armor shredded and cover destroyed (which basically means squad wipe?)
I think the whole point is to eliminate the ability to rely solely on Flashbangs to control enemies with dangerous active abilities. You'll have to bring something else. Gunners with suppression will work, but so will arc thrower assaults, or incendiary grenades, or Psi, for example.
Sax2514
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by Sax2514 »

RantingRodent wrote:
Sax2514 wrote:I would like to know how we should be able to deal if one or more strong enemies don't get affected by a flashbang, and if we don't have someone who can suppress. For example: 2 elite rocketeers who are far away each other and both resisted the flashbang. Should I let my team get entirely damaged by 2 rockets, with armor shredded and cover destroyed (which basically means squad wipe?)
I think the whole point is to eliminate the ability to rely solely on Flashbangs to control enemies with dangerous active abilities. You'll have to bring something else. Gunners with suppression will work, but so will arc thrower assaults, or incendiary grenades, or Psi, for example.
Well, I don't use psi operatives and incendiary grenades are not always available, so I guess I'm doomed...
P.S. Also, I don't know what will be the purpose of support grenadier in 1.3, since its primary role (reliably crowd control) has been eliminated, thanks to the chance to resist flashbang and the radius reduction for flashbangs and advanced grenade launchers.
DonCrabio
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by DonCrabio »

We need more details on flashbang changes. Generally, what units will have resist chance, how high will be this chance and so on.
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johnnylump
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Re: Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

Post by johnnylump »

+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=Gatekeeper, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM2_LW, Chance=20)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM3_LW, Chance=67)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvPsiWitchM3, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM1, Chance=50)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM2, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=SectoidM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ViperKing, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=BerserkerQueen, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonKing,Chance=100)

Straight from the ini. Subject to change.
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