Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

[DonCrabio]

+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM2_LW, Chance=20)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM3_LW, Chance=67)

This is sad, this guys very abundant and can go in packs of three.

Looks like assaults and suppression gunners will be 100% must have for late game squads. Since you almost always need grenadier, shinobi and specialist I see very little space for variety of squad layouts.

[Unfawkable]

+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=Gatekeeper, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM2_LW, Chance=20)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM3_LW, Chance=67)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvPsiWitchM3, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM1, Chance=50)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM2, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=SectoidM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ViperKing, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=BerserkerQueen, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonKing,Chance=100)

Straight from the ini. Subject to change.

A great deal of Flashbang usage is primarily to handle all of those big units. Are they getting some form of tradeoff buff, or just a nerf?

[Tuhalu]

A great deal of Flashbang usage is primarily to handle all of those big units. Are they getting some form of tradeoff buff, or just a nerf?

The 100% resists are limited to very rare boss enemies. The high resists are also limited to very uncommon enemies (Muton Elites, Gatekeeper and T2 Advent General). The rest are pretty likely to get flashbanged and are fairly late game threats anyway.

As far as we know, other disabling abilities like burning (incendiary grenade, flamethrower), stunning, frost bomb and mind control effects aren't affected (although certain enemies are resistant to these as well). It probably doesn't even affect disorients from other sources (psi, arc thrower).

What this means is a one size fits all solution (sting grenade all the things) is no longer the optimal strategy for the entire game. You might actually use other things, which is good for compositional diversity.

I do wonder if this only a flashbang nerf or if it affects the stun component added by sting grenade as well?

[Alketi]

Regarding the flash bang changes, I think the intent is to force the player to deal and adapt to a new non-certainty, i.e. to increase the dynamics of combat.

Flash bangs will go from a last resort, to perhaps a first resort, as by using them first/preemptively you'll have an opportunity to deal with the consequences of a resist. Maybe that's the ideal case. In the worst case, a player still uses them last and then prays to the RNG Gods.

However, as I said upthread, I think this will also spawn some unintended consequences.

- Will you now bring incendiary grenades instead of flashbangs? Will there be an "incendiary rush"? Will they essentially become mandatory?

- Will this further increase the importance of Gunners (and suppression)?

I think there's also the danger, given the localization costs, that this creates yet more INI-diving/word-of-mouth as to what works and when, which, if not properly understood by the player, negatively impacts user experience.

I'm not sure how it'll all play out, but IMO this is likely to be biggest change in 1.3, for a number of reasons.

[Dwarfling]

I really hope they tone down the defenses on some of these enemies in exchange for being so difficult to control them.

[ndessell]

+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=Gatekeeper, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM2_LW, Chance=20)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM3_LW, Chance=67)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvPsiWitchM3, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM1, Chance=50)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM2, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=SectoidM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ViperKing, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=BerserkerQueen, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonKing,Chance=100)

Straight from the ini. Subject to change.

where is this in the .ini files? most of those number are instant removels.

[stefan3iii]

I really hope they tone down the defenses on some of these enemies in exchange for being so difficult to control them.

Xwynns was saying on his channel that defenses and dodge were lowered across the board for late game enemies.

I think flashbang radius was also lowered, stated by bill on reddit. They're still going to be strong grenades, we're not going to stop using flashbangs.

My thoughts on the various grenades:

I think poison grenades need a buff, the change I'd make is very tiny: Make the poison last a minimum of one turn. Right now you really can't rely on poison as CC, because there is a chance it'll tick for damage and immediately wear off the following turn. This would make them worth using over a flashbang sometimes, but also not strictly stronger than a flashbang since they don't disable abilities.

I think EMP grenades are worthless, not sure what kind of buff I'd give them. What if they disabled weapons for all enemies, in addition to stunning robots? Enemies could still reload and shoot, but many would not. And it would of course not shut down special abilities or melee attacks.

Acid grenades are another very weak option. I would buff them to "amplify damage", in addition to stripping armor. Something similar to the rupture effect, ie +3 flat damage per hit for enemies affected by the acid. They're a late game grenade, expensive to unlock, should do something useful because right now using an entire action and utility slot to strip armor off 1 target, is rather sad when compared to other options like a shredder cannon or just shooting your target.

Mimic beacons and proximity grenades I haven't used, and probably never will use unless I'm goofing around because they only become available long after the game should be over. Though I think this is a bit of a problem with the entire end game tech tier, game feels like it ends around Tier 3 Armor + Coil Weapons, and there is little reason to wait around doing research instead of just finishing the golden path.

Just give me a reason to use something other than flashbangs and incendiary on my grenadiers!

[EsoxGreen]

1) I think they way over-nerfed the sword Shinobi build in this patch. Reaper was the only ability that made sword Shinobi useful and now with -3 damage penalty (-3 after the 1st kill, -6 after the 2nd kill, -9 after the 3rd one!) I think there will be zero reason to go for sword builds. I mean, Reaper now allows you to kill only 2 guys, maybe, 3 if you are REALLY lucky - which is somewhat stronger than a well-placed grenade. But it has numerous drawbacks: 1) you can pull more pods; 2) if you fail to kill the guy - you Shinobi is so screwed (Whirlwind/Implacable doesn't proc with Reaper now!). Reduction of cooldown to 3 turns is largely meaningless since most engagements are decided within 2 turns anyway. Original Reaper indeed allowed you to kill >5 guys, but given that the enemies have pretty large scatter you risked pulling more pod when approaching every single enemy. That was high risk - high reward (and you had to carry your almost useless sword Shinobi up until GSGT). Coup de Grace is very underwhelming for MSGT level - if the enemies are disoriented/stunned/panicked it is pretty much safe to ignore them for a turn anyway. I am very upset about this change.

2) Bladestorm was not buffed despite numerous observations how horrible it is. (FYI, it is considered an overwatch attack with all its penalties and is wonky when enemies move away from Shinobi.)

3) Conceal was strong for cheesing stealth missions and Shadowstrike+Faceoff combo. Now that they make stealth less viable and Faceoff doesn't work from Concealment, what is the point of Conceal as a MSGT perk?

4) Another big gripe is that now Specialists can no longer have Combat and Revival Protocols together. These were two most useful abilities for Specialists who went on combat missions. Given that stealth hack missions will be less viable and more combat will be required I don't think Specialists will be a much used class anymore.

[chrisb]

Though I think this is a bit of a problem with the entire end game tech tier, game feels like it ends around Tier 3 Armor + Coil Weapons, and there is little reason to wait around doing research instead of just finishing the golden path.

Just give me a reason to use something other than flashbangs and incendiary on my grenadiers!

I think that's the biggest part they're addressing now is the end game. Not sure what they have in mind. Having SnG missions will certainly help get into tech easier and if we are able to fight more missions instead of having to stealth most then we'll see more cores and such. So that may help a lot.

On flashbangs, I was kind of hoping it would be RNG against everything. It sucks when an item you start with is equal to or more powerful than items you have to spend enormous amounts of time and resources on.

Also had the thought that Smoke should give dodge instead of defense. I think it would make the AI break less and would overall be more useful. Not sure on numbers, maybe something like 15 dodge, +15 for bombs, +15 for dense? Would make smoke bombs more attractive.

[wizard1200]

I can't agree more. As a MSgt perk it [edit: Conceal] might even be completely cooldown based for me. It was moved to MSgt not because it was too strong in combat but because it was abused in stealth missions but the result is that now, as a MSgt perk the only reason to justify it is for that stealth abuse while it should actually be a perk allowing the scout-fighter shinobi to resume scouting after he had to help the squad during a tough fight.

I think Sapper should reduce the damage falloff and Combat Engineer reduce it further if we want to be able to destroy more than 1 tile which is the real reason why Sapper is quite bad : for single tile cover destruction Demolition is just plain better and Sapper can't destroy more than 1 tile.

Good point. Conceal should have unlimited charges and a cooldown of 3 turns that starts when the character breaks concealment or when he activates the perk.

Reducing the damage falloff with Sapper and Combat Engineer is not a good idea in my opinion, because Tandem Warheads removes the damage falloff.

[Zyrrashijn]

Good point. Conceal should have unlimited charges and a cooldown of 3 turns that starts when the character breaks concealment or when he activates the perk.

You might want to check the Fixer class-mod, it introduces a perk just like that. It's called shadow protocol.

[Sax2514]

+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=Gatekeeper, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM2_LW, Chance=20)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM3_LW, Chance=67)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvPsiWitchM3, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM1, Chance=50)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM2, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=SectoidM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ViperKing, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=BerserkerQueen, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonKing,Chance=100)

Straight from the ini. Subject to change.

Good luck with the gatekeeper. Honestly, I don't like this change to flashbangs. This means that now, in 1.3, support grenadiers are useless and suppression gunners become mandatory, and you will need more than one in all your missions, because, with the increased number of enemies we fight in each turn in lw2, crowd control is vital, and while in 1.2 you can count on support grenadier + gunner for this kind of job, in 1.3 you'll need only gunners.

[Zyrrashijn]

Good Lord, please quit all the exaggerating and whining already. Support Grenadier just went from "King of the Battlefield" to "Asset to the Team". He's far from useless even with that FB nerf. FBs are OP as hell currently. Just wait and see the actual impact on the tactical gameplay.

[LordYanaek]

A few more thoughts after reading the latest posts.

Conceal I'm probably boring with my conceal discussions but it really bothers me that a fun but not OP build (scout-assassin) suffered collateral damage from the abusive use of conceal to chease stealth missions. The more i think about it, the more i think having a cooldown on the ability that starts counting when you break concealment as suggested by wizard1200 would be the best approach as it would eliminate the abusive use (or at least make it much harder). If you have to wait 3 turns to conceal after calling a 4 turns evac, the gain is minimal. Similarly you can't just steal something in front of the enemy and disappear immediately before moving away. Removing (or increasing) the charges and adding a special cooldown would make the perk less useful for cheasing stealth missions but better for combat scouting so unless i misunderstood the purpose of the perk and the developers want it to be a "chease stealth missions" perk it seems like a win-win change.

Flashbangs They are still as reliable as ever in the early game when you need them badly against vipers, sectoids and stun lancers. Every enemy with a chance to resist comes rather late or is a (mini)boss. Later we have other options to control them. At least it will open room for PsiOps as a valid choice along with the changes (overall they mostly get boosted even if some abilities are nerfed). Yes, we'll no longer be able to rely solely on flashbangs for the entire game which is actually a good thing as it will open more options for late game classes. It was probably the most sensible nerf they could implement. Gatekeepers will have to be "stasified" or killed. Well, i guess they were meant to be real threat.

Poison I think poison should have a chance to wear off before it deals damage but the chance would be something like 0%-15%-30% and no more than 3 rounds. This way it would deal it's damage at least once and maybe only once just like it does currently but the CC effect would be guaranteed to stay at least one turn. Poison is really not very strong as a DoT effect so the CC is the best part. Gas grenades deal laughable damage so if the CC effect have a chance (even small) to wear off before the first enemy action they will always be a bad choice.

EMP grenades Something will have to be done about those, but i don't really know what.

Late game It's just wild guesses but i really suspect they have more changes in testing. The free radio relay when you take the Network Tower probably indicates that building them will be harder (or maybe not possible at all) and/or contacting far away regions will be more costly. This would slow down wide spread of resistance and make it harder to rush the GP missions, probably delaying the end of the game. It probably came as a surprise to the developers that we could rush GP missions so quickly and win the game with only a single liberated region and this is probably a sign they are working on the strategic layer to make the war actually "long". It really makes no sense that some items can't even be researched before the game is over.

[Veneficus]

I would like to vote against the seriel nerf.

The snipers are already underpowered compared to the other classes now.

If there is no choice at the master sgt. level maybe the solution is to buff the other skills?

I can appreciate the passion about the marking tree the devs have put in, but the point of a sniper isn't to walk around making things easier to hit for others, the point of a sniper is to kill high value targets reliably in 1 shot.

[LordYanaek]

I can appreciate the passion about the marking tree the devs have put in, but the point of a sniper isn't to walk around making things easier to hit for others, the point of a sniper is to kill high value targets reliably in 1 shot.

Which has nothing to do with Serial and is why my AMF Sniper was part of the Waterworld assault team
As i already said i would have preferred a fix to the broken interaction with autoloaders but being able to kill up to 24 enemies in a single round was slightly silly.
It will still be a good perk for cleaning trash mobs, no issue there. It will just no longer clear a map in a single activation.

[Zyrrashijn]

I can appreciate the passion about the marking tree the devs have put in, but the point of a sniper isn't to walk around making things easier to hit for others, the point of a sniper is to kill high value targets reliably in 1 shot.

That's what Kubikiri was designed for, no?

[Sax2514]

I can appreciate the passion about the marking tree the devs have put in, but the point of a sniper isn't to walk around making things easier to hit for others, the point of a sniper is to kill high value targets reliably in 1 shot.

Which has nothing to do with Serial and is why my AMF Sniper was part of the Waterworld assault team
As i already said i would have preferred a fix to the broken interaction with autoloaders but being able to kill up to 24 enemies in a single round was slightly silly.
It will still be a good perk for cleaning trash mobs, no issue there. It will just no longer clear a map in a single activation.

So, do you think also that was a silly decision by Firaxis developers, who implemented it in the first place and never nerfed?

[Tuhalu]

EMP grenades Something will have to be done about those, but i don't really know what.

They have a bit of a wierd niche and weren't much good at all in vanilla either. In LW2, they make no sound and apply a hack debuff to their robotic targets, but do middling damage as well. They won't kill anything on their own, but leave most targets so low on health that hacking them is nearly worthless. About the only reason to bring them is to hack Sectopods and Superheavy MECs (who don't mind the health loss so much and have significant hack resistance).

[Ethereal Commander]

Good Lord, please quit all the exaggerating and whining already. Support Grenadier just went from "King of the Battlefield" to "Asset to the Team". He's far from useless even with that FB nerf. FBs are OP as hell currently. Just wait and see the actual impact on the tactical gameplay.

I could not agree more. The love for a limitless, beginning game item on this forum is overwhelming. Lord Lump did not nerf the flashbang anywhere near what I suggested. It only have an area effect of 1 square. The nerf was to encourage more classes to work together to solve the problem of the big bad gatekeeper, and to remove the overused player crutch of support Grenadiers being the overwhelmingly best option which stifled game play flexibility.

[ndessell]

Good Lord, please quit all the exaggerating and whining already. Support Grenadier just went from "King of the Battlefield" to "Asset to the Team". He's far from useless even with that FB nerf. FBs are OP as hell currently. Just wait and see the actual impact on the tactical gameplay.

I could not agree more. The love for a limitless, beginning game item on this forum is overwhelming. Lord Lump did not nerf the flashbang anywhere near what I suggested. It only have an area effect of 1 square. The nerf was to encourage more classes to work together to solve the problem of the big bad gatekeeper, and to remove the overused player crutch of support Grenadiers being the overwhelmingly best option which stifled game play flexibility.

my problem with the change are the units that are getting the resists. Instead of going after the flashbang everything play style they are hurting conservative flashbanging of high impact targets. a better change would have been to lower the disorient debuff and give moderate resistance to units without a lot of active abilities. Defensive Flashbanging should be an act of last resort.

[LordYanaek]

I can appreciate the passion about the marking tree the devs have put in, but the point of a sniper isn't to walk around making things easier to hit for others, the point of a sniper is to kill high value targets reliably in 1 shot.

Which has nothing to do with Serial and is why my AMF Sniper was part of the Waterworld assault team
As i already said i would have preferred a fix to the broken interaction with autoloaders but being able to kill up to 24 enemies in a single round was slightly silly.
It will still be a good perk for cleaning trash mobs, no issue there. It will just no longer clear a map in a single activation.

So, do you think also that was a silly decision by Firaxis developers, who implemented it in the first place and never nerfed?

It's neither the first nor the last silly oversight from Firaxis
It's neither the first nor last thing they should have fixed but never did
And they are not the worst company when it comes to post release support of their products, far from there, but there are worse issues still waiting to be fixed in XCom or Civilization games.
Besides, it wasn't as obvious in Vanilla XCom2 with lower enemy density. To kill 24 enemies in one round, you have to face 24 enemies first.

my problem with the change are the units that are getting the resists. Instead of going after the flashbang everything play style they are hurting conservative flashbanging of high impact targets. a better change would have been to lower the disorient debuff and give moderate resistance to units without a lot of active abilities. Defensive Flashbanging should be an act of last resort.

Flashbang is a mass CC ability that works great on masses of "low level" enemies. Against "purple" enemies, you need a strong control (probably single target) if you want to disable them rather than kill them. I think it makes a lot of sense.
Also since high impact targets must usually die first, having flashbang stay as strong as it was prior to the nerf on trash mobs allows you to concentrate on those big targets and (mostly) ignore the lesser threats knowing they are or will be disoriented reliably.

Frankly i prefer it this way than a global loss of efficiency.

[DerAva]

I'll keep my final judgement for when I actually played with it. I'm just not a big fan of RNG that has no counters. If there was a late game perk that you could take to counter enemy banging resistance or maybe repeated flashbangs lowering the value I'd feel much better. Just not a fan of "pray and hope" RNG.

[LordYanaek]

I'll keep my final judgement for when I actually played with it.

Wise words

I'm just not a big fan of RNG that has no counters. If there was a late game perk that you could take to counter enemy banging resistance or maybe repeated flashbangs lowering the value I'd feel much better. Just not a fan of "pray and hope" RNG.

I'm not a fan of "pray and hope" RNG either but i think it's not how it will work. We will have to adapt and change our tactics but we have other options to remove those enemies from the game for a turn or two. We won't be able to throw a flashbang as our last action on a few late game enemies if we want to avoid "pray and hope" but simply throwing it early will allow us to adapt : if the big guy is disoriented, great, if not kill him and ignore the disoriented mob around him.

I don't think it will be that hard to find other ways to deal with resistant enemies and if it means more diversity in builds and tactics, it's well worth the price.

[rifleman]

This is patch 1.3 perk tree of Sharpshooter from JoINrbs`s live streaming. Phantom reposition in Corporal rank, it looks awesome! That is a good news for a RT Sharpshooter build.