Thoughts on the 1.3 changes

[stefan3iii]

This is patch 1.3 perk tree of Sharpshooter from JoINrbs`s live streaming. Phantom reposition in Corporal rank, it looks awesome! That is a good news for a RT Sharpshooter build.

That staff sergeant tier of perks is the worst in the game. 3 completely useless perks, all in one tier

I would take Kubikiri every time, because I guess it's the least useless. It would be good if you took away the "must be damaged" aspect, or if it did full damage when it failed.

That tree though is overall a nerf to sharpshooter, mostly because we have to choose between aggression and centermass, both key perks for making SS damage compete with assaults/gunners.

[JulianSkies]

(removed image to not make post giant)
This is patch 1.3 perk tree of Sharpshooter from JoINrbs`s live streaming. Phantom reposition in Corporal rank, it looks awesome! That is a good news for a RT Sharpshooter build.

That staff sergeant tier of perks is the worst in the game. 3 completely useless perks, all in one tier

I would take Kubikiri every time, because I guess it's the least useless. It would be good if you took away the "must be damaged" aspect, or if it did full damage when it failed.

That tree though is overall a nerf to sharpshooter, mostly because we have to choose between aggression and centermass, both key perks for making SS damage compete with assaults/gunners.

I don't know, Center Mass is... Just +1 damage when the sniper rifles already have such gigantic damage already, with crits +1 damage isn't all that useful.

[Tuhalu]

...
This is patch 1.3 perk tree of Sharpshooter from JoINrbs`s live streaming. Phantom reposition in Corporal rank, it looks awesome! That is a good news for a RT Sharpshooter build.

I see the possibility for a survivable rooftop sniper with this layout. Snap Shot > Damn Good Ground > Lone Wolf > Low Profile. Lone Wolf is the only new sharpshooter skill (replacing Conceal), but it would reduce 75% aim (many enemies) down to 10% to hit instead of 20%. With the right sharpshooter (high defense somehow?) and the 1.3 guerilla ops changes, it might just be viable.

I'm not sure why they would put Long Watch at Gunnery Sergeant though. Maybe they are planning to buff it somehow to make the risk of bad activations not so horrible?

[stefan3iii]

(removed image to not make post giant)
This is patch 1.3 perk tree of Sharpshooter from JoINrbs`s live streaming. Phantom reposition in Corporal rank, it looks awesome! That is a good news for a RT Sharpshooter build.

That staff sergeant tier of perks is the worst in the game. 3 completely useless perks, all in one tier

I would take Kubikiri every time, because I guess it's the least useless. It would be good if you took away the "must be damaged" aspect, or if it did full damage when it failed.

That tree though is overall a nerf to sharpshooter, mostly because we have to choose between aggression and centermass, both key perks for making SS damage compete with assaults/gunners.

I don't know, Center Mass is... Just +1 damage when the sniper rifles already have such gigantic damage already, with crits +1 damage isn't all that useful.

The wiki is down, and I can't remember the weapon damage ranges. But at Weapon Tech Tier 1, +1 damage is like a 20% boost to damage, and at Tier 4 it's 10% or so? The new tree not only makes it harder to take center mass, but it also moves it down the tree, so you get it much later when it's less powerful. This means the SS will be even weaker in the early game.

If I was king of the world, I'd swap:
Center Mass -> Corporal replacing Dead Shot
Dead Shot -> Sergeant replacing Precision
Precision -> Tech Sergeant where Center Mass was. Then I'd buff precision to justify it being lower in the tree, and to make it compete with aggression favorably. It would be an interesting trade-off, Aggression is better in high enemy density missions, while Precision would be better for smaller squad missions.

[rifleman]

Another interesting feature of Smash and Grab mission is, you could farm reinforcements to level up your soldiers. Looks awesome, you could choose between farming enemy for EXP or pick up resource. But it seems will be fixed before 1.3 out. But I like this idea.

Smash and Grab farming footage in here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/134934195
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/134984151

[darkerevent]

Long Watch had better be getting the mother of all buffs if it's getting shoved down into GSGT. A terrible, terrible perk that's basically a trap to take in the first place should not be at the second to last level of a tree. :/

I'm also generally in agreement that 1.3 Sharpie SSGT looks like the worst perk options in the game currently, at least as far as nest-built snipers are concerned. Independent Tracking will be the go-to pick for convenience with DFA proc into holotarget setups for the following turn, but it would be nice if there was a decision to be made there for nesters instead of the options being "Terrible, meh, Terrible." (Unless Kubikiri is getting some kind of gigantic buff that I can't even envision.) LoFile will of course be fine for snapshotters, but I'm still not convinced snapshot is going to be any good compared to just running another Assault on the squad and getting in close.

[DonCrabio]

SSGT layer of Sharpshooter perks looks like bad joke. I hope this is will be changed.

Anyone really take Long Watch? First and last time I took it, all it done for me was bad activations.

And Kubikiri, anyone made good use of it? From my experience, almost all good potential targets for this skill have a lot of armor and most of them cannot be flanked or exposed.

[wizard1200]

+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=Gatekeeper, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM2_LW, Chance=20)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=MutonM3_LW, Chance=67)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvPsiWitchM3, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM1, Chance=50)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=AdvGeneralM2, Chance=75)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=SectoidM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonM2_LW, Chance=33)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ViperKing, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=BerserkerQueen, Chance=100)
+ENEMY_FLASHBANG_RESIST=(UnitName=ArchonKing,Chance=100)

Straight from the ini. Subject to change.

I think that a target should have a chance of Will / 2 % to resist a flashbang:
- Success: The target is dazed (same penalities as disoriented, but the target can use all perks)
- Failure: The target is disoriented

[Alketi]

Kubikiri must have a really strong lobby at HQ. It's gone from a never pick to a must pick. Like a Phoenix! I'm impressed.

Long Watch seems like suicide in LW2. I always took it in vanilla but would never consider it now.

[stefan3iii]

Kubikiri must have a really strong lobby at HQ. It's gone from a never pick to a must pick. Like a Phoenix! I'm impressed.

Long Watch seems like suicide in LW2. I always took it in vanilla but would never consider it now.

Ha. But seriously the +Defense perks are so bad, all it does is encourage the AI to shoot someone else on the team. Fortify is a little better, because at least you can choose to do it, so you can manipulate the AI into shooting something.

Not sure how I'd fix low profile, besides just removing it.

[rakoon79]

Regarding the screenshot of the SharpShooter perk tree...

Quoting joINrbs on Reddit :

don't go overboard theorizing about this one, it'll quite likely be different when the patch is released.

Just saying

[Dlareh]

I'll bet, because as stands it looks like actual Snipers are gone from the game.

Consider how in the current version Specialists are weak, so they make good officers because they have little better to do

1.3 Sharpshooters, if they don't improve significantly from that tree (and considering the Serial nerf), are just going to be the new go-to officer class. It synergies well with holo targeting so it's not weak in that sense, we'll just be done playing with actual snipers

¯\ (ツ) /¯

[DonCrabio]

I don't see any interesting changes in SS perk trees. DFA snipers still the same mostly, holobots 100% same. Rapid targeting and Snapshot must be placed on different layers, this will allow some interesting hybrid builds.

P.S. My OHK sharpshooters remove 1 enemy per turn on combat heavy missions, can't call this weak, just specialized.

[LordYanaek]

As was said, it's likely not the definitive tree but if it was the definitive tree, then the "actual sniper" would be :

• Crit Build : DfA-Deadshot-Prec Shot-Kubikiri (if fixed)-Aggression-Hunter's Instinct-Double Tap
  Abuse Stocks for bonus aim and crit. Very high damage but relies on crits to do that damage. Spike damage with Double Tap crit is huge.
• Non crit build : DfA or the new Snap Shot-DGG-Lone Wolf-Low Profile-Center Mass-Hunter's Instinct-AMF
  Extremely reliable to hit anything behind full cover for high damage and anything out of cover for even more. He might not have the same spike damage as a crit build but it very robust. The new Snap Shot allows you to stay closer to the squad and move with them while still being a real sniper when you find a good position

I never considered Serial a Sniper perk. A Sniper is a single target-high damage soldier and Serial is for cleaning trash mobs. It's still possible to create a mass murderer, you'll just have to soften the enemies slightly more but anyone who used In the Zone in LW1 can tell you it's perfectly valid even with the reduced damage (ItZ also used to reduce crit chance).

[Autoclave]

...
This is patch 1.3 perk tree of Sharpshooter from JoINrbs`s live streaming. Phantom reposition in Corporal rank, it looks awesome! That is a good news for a RT Sharpshooter build.

I see the possibility for a survivable rooftop sniper with this layout. Snap Shot > Damn Good Ground > Lone Wolf > Low Profile. Lone Wolf is the only new sharpshooter skill (replacing Conceal), but it would reduce 75% aim (many enemies) down to 10% to hit instead of 20%. With the right sharpshooter (high defense somehow?) and the 1.3 guerilla ops changes, it might just be viable.

I'm not sure why they would put Long Watch at Gunnery Sergeant though. Maybe they are planning to buff it somehow to make the risk of bad activations not so horrible?

The position itself in the perk tree is a massive nerf. You cannot take hunter's instincts. Usually overwatches happen on exposed moving targets, and that is where the hunter instincts +2 damage procs. This change makes overwatching with snipers pointless unless you get lucky with AWC.

So far there is very little in class perk changes that i am looking forward to. You could say we are supposed to get more class variety, perhaps, may be. But we are being overwhelmed with nerfs now.

[Veneficus]

I can appreciate the passion about the marking tree the devs have put in, but the point of a sniper isn't to walk around making things easier to hit for others, the point of a sniper is to kill high value targets reliably in 1 shot.

That's what Kubikiri was designed for, no?

Does the skill actually work or is it still bugged?

[Veneficus]

I can appreciate the passion about the marking tree the devs have put in, but the point of a sniper isn't to walk around making things easier to hit for others, the point of a sniper is to kill high value targets reliably in 1 shot.

Which has nothing to do with Serial and is why my AMF Sniper was part of the Waterworld assault team
As i already said i would have preferred a fix to the broken interaction with autoloaders but being able to kill up to 24 enemies in a single round was slightly silly.
It will still be a good perk for cleaning trash mobs, no issue there. It will just no longer clear a map in a single activation.

So, do you think also that was a silly decision by Firaxis developers, who implemented it in the first place and never nerfed?

I think it was designed that way by firaxis to give a final tier god-like skill to make players feel overpowered in the "victory lap" of the end game.

As an entirely separate issue, with the increase in enemy health, armor, etc. The sniper no longer is the superior single target assassin. It simply cannot produce the damage per turn a ranger can on a single target, thereby negating the entire purpose of a sniper.

I also think that if you are going to give classes like the assault the ability to do obscene amounts of damage with skills like street sweeper, then the sniper should have a parity skill, otherwise, it becomes a second rate class.

[darkerevent]

I also think that if you are going to give classes like the assault the ability to do obscene amounts of damage with skills like street sweeper, then the sniper should have a parity skill, otherwise, it becomes a second rate class.

To be fair, snipers doing a Serial cleanup are also usually positioned about a billion times more safely than a Street Sweeping assault is.

That said, Street Sweeper definitely needed a nerf. Pre-nerf, you could wipe lategame rainbow pods with a laser-tier gun by using it. x_x

[Doctor Sticks]

Does anyone know if Shredder Gun/Cannon and 0% missions are being addressed as well?

[Veneficus]

I also think that if you are going to give classes like the assault the ability to do obscene amounts of damage with skills like street sweeper, then the sniper should have a parity skill, otherwise, it becomes a second rate class.

To be fair, snipers doing a Serial cleanup are also usually positioned about a billion times more safely than a Street Sweeping assault is.

That said, Street Sweeper definitely needed a nerf. Pre-nerf, you could wipe lategame rainbow pods with a laser-tier gun by using it. x_x

I respectfully disagree it is fair when you can easily lose a good serial with a graze shot, and you can reliably do 20+ damage to anything a street sweeper hits, entire full health pods can be totally eliminated and with the smaller pods that are being planned, even with the nerf, StSw can still kill an entire pod in a single shot.

I would be curious to hear what is being planned to actually fix snipers and specialists rather than constantly hearing about how a single skill is being nerfed.

Especially since the enemy armor and health damage scales quickly outpace the snipers ability to scale, even on veteran difficulty, a sniper in concealment cannot single shot an officer as the opening act of an ambush reliably, and for a sniper in any game, that just seems utterly broken to me.

And to be even more critical about the LW2 sniper, why is the spotting skills not on a shinobi? A sniper in visual range as a support to a ranger defies belief...Especially since a ranger can fire 3 shots at incredible accuracy at the very edges of visual range, with damage output that makes the sniper look like they need to go back to the range and learn to shoot.

[Veneficus]

I also think that if you are going to give classes like the assault the ability to do obscene amounts of damage with skills like street sweeper, then the sniper should have a parity skill, otherwise, it becomes a second rate class.

To be fair, snipers doing a Serial cleanup are also usually positioned about a billion times more safely than a Street Sweeping assault is.

That said, Street Sweeper definitely needed a nerf. Pre-nerf, you could wipe lategame rainbow pods with a laser-tier gun by using it. x_x

I respectfully disagree it is fair when you can easily lose a good serial with a graze shot, and you can reliably do 20+ damage to anything a street sweeper hits, entire full health pods can be totally eliminated and with the smaller pods that are being planned, even with the nerf, StSw can still kill an entire pod in a single shot.

I would be curious to hear what is being planned to actually fix snipers and specialists rather than constantly hearing about how a single skill is being nerfed.

Especially since the enemy armor and health damage scales quickly outpace the snipers ability to scale, even on veteran difficulty, a sniper in concealment cannot single shot an officer as the opening act of an ambush reliably, and for a sniper in any game, that just seems utterly broken to me.

And to be even more critical about the LW2 sniper, why are the spotting skills not on a shinobi? A sniper in visual range as a support to a ranger defies belief...Especially since a ranger can fire 3 shots at incredible accuracy at the very edges of visual range, with damage output that makes the sniper look like they need to go back to the range and learn to shoot.

[Veneficus]

it is really starting to feel like the designers are saying if you don't play in the way we like to optimize then you don't have a viable game.

[ndessell]

it is really starting to feel like the designers are saying if you don't play in the way we like to optimize then you don't have a viable game.

... yes quite a few mechanics work they way they do because of jonnylumpy's personal head cannon.

[LordYanaek]

And to be even more critical about the LW2 sniper, why is the spotting skills not on a shinobi? A sniper in visual range as a support to a ranger defies belief...Especially since a ranger can fire 3 shots at incredible accuracy at the very edges of visual range, with damage output that makes the sniper look like they need to go back to the range and learn to shoot.

The LW2 Sharpshooter (not Sniper!) class is a mix of the LW1 Sniper and Scout classes. The scout class was like a sniper without squadsight and using a Marksman Rifle (lighter sniper rifle that can shoot after moving). With that in mind, a spotter job perfectly makes sense and the holotargetter seems like a natural tool even if such a build badly misses the LW1 Marksman rifle. They are not snipers at all, sniper is just a specific build of Sharpshooter, scout is another one. From a pure gameplay PoV, the holotargetting officer makes low Aim sharpshooters (if you're playing with NCE) viable while they would otherwise be a total waste.
If you build a real sniper (which is perfectly viable) they have better Aim and Damage than a Ranger so not sure what you are talking about for the last part.

it is really starting to feel like the designers are saying if you don't play in the way we like to optimize then you don't have a viable game.

OK, i don't want to be rude but if you don't like the way they design their game, nobody is forcing you to play it.
That comment is neither nice nor fair and won't help start a constructive discussion. I think i understand what you mean but that's not really the best way to say it.
They are not trying to force a particular build in every class, they are trying to make all of the builds valid. This requires a lot of testing and tuning. Big companies would do a lot more internal testing and still fail to deliver a balanced product at release. LW2 is only a few months from release, give me an example of a recent game that was perfectly balanced a few months after release. Give them time to tweak what they need to tweak. If you don't like the current state of the game, don't play it and wait a few more months until it's in a more polished state.

... yes quite a few mechanics work they way they do because of jonnylumpy's personal head cannon.

Every game is influenced by the developer's head cannon, i don't understand what's strange or wrong in this. Obviously the developers are the one who choose the mechanics of their games. They choose them based on gameplay and lore reasons. It's easy to say that gameplay must always come first (and i agree to a point) but without some lore we might as well just move colored cubes and shoot at colored shperes on a map made purely of geometric blocks. Unlike most lead developers, jonnylump is actually active on his forum and sometimes explain why he decided to include or not some mechanics. This makes it more visible that sometimes he made a decision just because it fits his view of the world.

Once again, it's their game and they design it the way they want to. If you really don't like it, nothing wrong with this, just find a game that you like more. If you think you have an idea to improve the game, explain it (but remember it's the developers privilege to accept it or not). Criticizing the developers for doing what every developer does however won't help improve the game.

[Veneficus]

If you build a real sniper (which is perfectly viable) they have better Aim and Damage than a Ranger so not sure what you are talking about for the last part.

Without even bringing critical hits into the equation, if you have a ranger who can shoot twice with a coil gun, at 7-12 each shot, with 2, perhaps 3 shots if you take the perk that permits a double shot, your base damage assuming all hits (for which you have 3 rolls and 3 crit chances) is 21-36 per turn on a single target. That also doesn't account for the ability to move and shoot with a ranger, which could get you a maximum single target damage of 14-24

A sharpshooter (sniper if you like) with a coil gun is taking 1 shot, from a stationary position, with a coil gun, 10-17 base damage, per turn.

Even if you stand still and take 2 shots with a ranger from light 'em up, both base and average damage is going to be a higher number than what a sharpshooter of equal rank can dish out.

If you get a graze with a sharpshooter, you will get one shot with similar damage, as a 1 shot graze from a ranger.

The only potential benefit is a beyond visual range shot, which takes your sharpshooter out of harms way, unless you have a snapshot or spotter build, in which case the benefit is totally negated.

As the enemies scale in health, the one shot kill from base damage of a sniper build essentially becomes extraordinarily rare.

That is simple math.

it is really starting to feel like the designers are saying if you don't play in the way we like to optimize then you don't have a viable game. OK, i don't want to be rude but if you don't like the way they design their game, nobody is forcing you to play it.
That comment is neither nice nor fair and won't help start a constructive discussion. I think i understand what you mean but that's not really the best way to say it.

Sorry, it didn't seem like that to me at all.

I would point out, if you make something that only appeals to a narrow audience, which turns a game based on replayability into a scripted game where in order to play you have to dive through code to see how things work, or take away more and more choices, future endeavors are not likely going to be successful.

They are not trying to force a particular build in every class, they are trying to make all of the builds valid. This requires a lot of testing and tuning. Big companies would do a lot more internal testing and still fail to deliver a balanced product at release. LW2 is only a few months from release, give me an example of a recent game that was perfectly balanced a few months after release. Give them time to tweak what they need to tweak. If you don't like the current state of the game, don't play it and wait a few more months until it's in a more polished state.

I agree with you on this, but so far, it looks to me like rather than balance things, there is an overt favoritism in play style and optimal builds.

If a gunner, grenadier, or assault is grossly OP, they get a small nerf. But when the final skill of a sharpshooter is OP, the solution is to wreck the build? Does that seem balanced?

No game is ever perfect, but we are talking abut a modification, not a new creation. LW1 or 2 does not exist without an Xcom base, and taking away parts of the game that the base likes (like multiple viable strategies, choices not random uncontrollable events, etc., customization, and even different OP builds based on play style) are what brings people to Xcom. If you take that away, it doesn't improve the game, it simply turns a non-scripted game into a scripted game, and its just not good for keeping your future audiences.


Every game is influenced by the developer's head cannon, i don't understand what's strange or wrong in this. Obviously the developers are the one who choose the mechanics of their games. They choose them based on gameplay and lore reasons. It's easy to say that gameplay must always come first (and i agree to a point) but without some lore we might as well just move colored cubes and shoot at colored shperes on a map made purely of geometric blocks. Unlike most lead developers, jonnylump is actually active on his forum and sometimes explain why he decided to include or not some mechanics. This makes it more visible that sometimes he made a decision just because it fits his view of the world.

Once again, it's their game and they design it the way they want to. If you really don't like it, nothing wrong with this, just find a game that you like more. If you think you have an idea to improve the game, explain it (but remember it's the developers privilege to accept it or not). Criticizing the developers for doing what every developer does however won't help improve the game.

I was just pointing out what was happening with the decisions being made from an outsiders perspective, from somebody who doesn't spend hours combing through ini files learning how mechanics work to play. If the response to that is "if you don't like it, go home" that's cool. I am not going to fight about it. But I am also not going to be particularly inclined to revisit anything eventually for sale either and companies don't stay open by alienating people with "my way or get lost", just ask United Airlines.