Advice

[Tuhalu]

Wait. you can adjust where you start.. or do you mean.. sneak to a better ambush spot??

You are concealed at the start of these missions, so yes, sneak. Despite the large bonuses to their detection range that ADVENT get at 0% infiltration, you can often move around the edge of the map to a significantly better place to fight from if you take the time.

It's a pet peeve of mine that streamers and youtubers that play the game usually just engage from their starting area and then wonder why every enemy on the map rushes into them in the first 5 turns. Is it hard? No, they made it hard on themselves.

[LordYanaek]

What is the difference in the red fog choices? (quadratic (??) and linear) and which one do you prefer

It's the "shape" of the curve when you plot stat penalty vs damage received. See this example

RedFogCurveExample.png (5.88 KiB) Viewed 25502 times

Note that this is a pure theoretical example, i didn't plot the actual values. The important part is that with quadratic you (and enemies) get very low penalty with low damage and damage increases faster the more damage you take. This is the default value and i always used it. With linear you'll get a much higher penalty with low damage compared to quadratic.

Actually i had a look at the ini and it looks like the max penalty is the same with both models so quadratic is simply less punishing than linear as you have lower penalty with low damage and the same penalty when you're almost dead.
Those are the settings for red fog in XComLW_Toolbox.ini (i removed the commented lines)

Code: Select all

[LW_Toolbox_Integrated.X2Effect_RedFog_LW]
+TypesImmuneToRedFog=Sectopod
+TypesImmuneToRedFog=Archon

+TypesHalfImmuneToRedFog=Cyberus

+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Offense, MaxPenalty=50)
+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Mobility, MaxPenalty=8)
+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Will, MaxPenalty=20)
+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Hacking, MaxPenalty=20)

;Pure Quadratic
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Offense, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=50)
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Mobility, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=8)
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Will, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=20)
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Hacking, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=20)

[Jackal]

What is the difference in the red fog choices? (quadratic (??) and linear) and which one do you prefer

It's the "shape" of the curve when you plot stat penalty vs damage received. See this example
RedFogCurveExample.png
Note that this is a pure theoretical example, i didn't plot the actual values. The important part is that with quadratic you (and enemies) get very low penalty with low damage and damage increases faster the more damage you take. This is the default value and i always used it. With linear you'll get a much higher penalty with low damage compared to quadratic.

Actually i had a look at the ini and it looks like the max penalty is the same with both models so quadratic is simply less punishing than linear as you have lower penalty with low damage and the same penalty when you're almost dead.
Those are the settings for red fog in XComLW_Toolbox.ini (i removed the commented lines)

Code: Select all

[LW_Toolbox_Integrated.X2Effect_RedFog_LW]
+TypesImmuneToRedFog=Sectopod
+TypesImmuneToRedFog=Archon

+TypesHalfImmuneToRedFog=Cyberus

+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Offense, MaxPenalty=50)
+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Mobility, MaxPenalty=8)
+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Will, MaxPenalty=20)
+LinearRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Hacking, MaxPenalty=20)

;Pure Quadratic
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Offense, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=50)
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Mobility, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=8)
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Will, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=20)
+QuadraticRedFogPenalties=(Stat=eStat_Hacking, InitialRate=0.0, MaxPenalty=20)

Dang, that is very helpful. I think I need to go back and make sure I have it on quadratic. Thanks LordYanaek

[Psieye]

what exactly is a 0% mission? Are you saying going in with 0% infiltration? Wouldn't that be total suicide??

The "0% supply raid" meta comes from players who can take on Swarming numbers and emerge with minimal (or zero) wounds. The lack of a time limit plays a really big part. Once you can do it once, you can do it again and again. But because it's hard for most players to pull off, it's difficult for devs to fix this 'exploit'.

[Jackal]

well, i dunno about that... i don't think i'm good enough for a 0% mission just yet

i am about to do my very first radio tower mission after 800+ hours of XCOM2...

in the middle of infiltrating and got this DE that i was never warned about: tougher faceless... that sounds like a brutal DE for a guy with only 2 havens so far..

am i screwed?

[Jackal]

well, i decided to pretend i didn't know about trying to stealth a shinobi and ran a crew of

gunner
sniper
ranger
tactical
grenader

we couldn't 'make much progress... took out four cells but were outnumbered by the reinforcements so we bugged out... happy to see the tower is still there

i made a mistake of not attacking while we had the region at 4legions... as we were infiltrating they went up to six.... I may have to go back and see if there was something i could have done, like boosted at 100% I was fighting light-moderate at 200 infiltration.

[Zyrrashijn]

Hacking the objective will disrupt the RNFs.

[Tuhalu]

well, i decided to pretend i didn't know about trying to stealth a shinobi and ran a crew of

gunner
sniper
ranger
tactical
grenader

we couldn't 'make much progress... took out four cells but were outnumbered by the reinforcements so we bugged out... happy to see the tower is still there

i made a mistake of not attacking while we had the region at 4legions... as we were infiltrating they went up to six.... I may have to go back and see if there was something i could have done, like boosted at 100% I was fighting light-moderate at 200 infiltration.

It can be done that way, but you can't muck about. The mission is balanced around you turning the reinforcements off, not trying to farm them. Also, I think Sniper is more or less a liability on this mission since there is very little call for squadsight shenanigans. Assaults are far more useful since everything is happening at quite close range and needs to die fast.

[LordYanaek]

As Zyrrashijn and Tuhalu said, hacking the console is extremely important in Network Tower missions.
Your squad wasn't a good one for such a mission. You need either

• A Shinobi to sneak to the console and hack it when the rest of the squad engages/is about to engage a(some) pod(s)
• A specialist to run to the console and hack it from the access corridor (where pods rarely patrol) while the rest of the squad draws pods away from your path
• An Assault to Command+Run n Gun and triple dash to the console to hack it

In addition you need soldiers capable of dealing with multiple enemies on their own to quickly dispatch as many enemies as possible while they are stunned

• Assault with Trench Gun/Close Encounters
• Technical
• Grenadier with good grenades and boosted cores
• Ranger if you can position him so he can take 2 shots at exposed enemies as soon as they are stunned without wasting a shot to move
• Gunner would need some high rank abilities like Saturation Fire to take on multiple enemies. I took one gunner in my latest tower but she's a Knife/Fleche build (AWC required) who can do multiple attacks thanks to her knife. Area suppression isn't very efficient on stunned enemies

The sniper, unless built for pistol use or MSgt with Serial is a single shot soldier (a very efficient one) and thus not very good on towers. Also it can be hard to find high ground with cover.

[Psieye]

It can be done that way, but you can't muck about. The mission is balanced around you turning the reinforcements off, not trying to farm them. Also, I think Sniper is more or less a liability on this mission since there is very little call for squadsight shenanigans. Assaults are far more useful since everything is happening at quite close range and needs to die fast.

Provided reinforcements are switched off before engaging, a sniper is suboptimal-but-acceptable on the network tower - at least in the early-midgame. Less efficient than serious AoE but there's a beauty in sniping the last alien in the control room from the other side of the map. You won't get many kills during the stun moment, but after priority targets are removed, the chaff reliably go down to the squadsight-flanking sniper while a tank keeps them in position.

I prefer a specialist to a shinobi if some AWC stealth perks are up - very handy to just hack-stun the turret if you pick the wrong lane on approach.

[Jadiel]

Just to give an alternative viewpoint, I find 1-2 Snipers invaluable on Tower assaults. You will never find another map with so many clear Squadsight lines of sight. If you can get high ground, that's ideal, but it's not necessary. You need a Shinobi to go with it though. Once you're shinobi has switched off the reinforcements, it's really easy to pull pods from your deployment zone. You can whittle them down easily as they run haphazardly towards you, and have your other 2-3 soldiers form an overwatch wall for whatever remnants arrive a couple of turns later.

[Alketi]

Just to give an alternative viewpoint, I find 1-2 Snipers invaluable on Tower assaults.

This is my tower strategy as well. It takes longer, but it's a methodical crawl through the map with the Shinobi spotting (after disabling the tower of course).

[Flapdrol]

I think I like the idea of red fog, but it can really screw a mission up...

]Red Fog is a love-it or hate-it feature. I think it makes the game interesting because it makes every hit point important (rather than just the last one) and makes the otherwise rarely used medic build an option that's on par with other specialist builds. It changes the tactical game quite a lot since wounded enemies are already subject to some form of crowd control so wounding two enemies rather than killing one becomes a valid tactic which can be the best one in some situations, but not always. I think it brings more diversity to the tactical game in addition to adding some realism to the fight (an almost dead soldier shouldn't be fighting as efficiently as a perfectly healthy one). I know some players view it almost like a cheat but as long as you apply it to both sides, i think it's fair as it can perfectly screw you if you take too many shots. The real negative point might be that it makes the first shots of an engagement even more important and can snowball an engagement into an easy win or turn into a downward spiral with few chance to recover.

IMO Red Fog makes the game a little bit easier, as AOE damage can now assist with group control. Firing a rocket into an 8-pack of advent and injuring all of them, makes it much harder for them to do something back. Instead of taking a 20% shot at an enemy, you now throw a grenade to partially disable him.

And, in general, the enemy is injured much more often than my men. And it takes away some of the effects of the rather large damage spread of weapons (rolling minimum damage on an enemy who then, with 1 hp left, devastates you in return)

Of course, enemy AOE (Hi, Mr. Advent Heavy Rocketeer) becomes more dangerous as well, but you can adjust for it by staying further apart than you normally would.

[LordYanaek]

Just to give an alternative viewpoint, I find 1-2 Snipers invaluable on Tower assaults.

This is my tower strategy as well. It takes longer, but it's a methodical crawl through the map with the Shinobi spotting (after disabling the tower of course).

I'm still not sure whether hacking the console without breaking concealment is working as intended or a bug thought
Any other hack or even opening a chest will break concealment. It's just strange that the console doesn't.

If it's intended, then yes, 1-2 snipers can do some good job and in addition, they can draw pods away from your shinobi so he can access the console if there is a stubborn pod refusing to move.

[Jackal]

okay, so i just did restart mission a few times and was able to make it work with only a minor scrape... only to find out that at advent level 6 in the region the HQ is Swarming even at freaking 200% I loaded a huge squad and it took like 20 days so I just ignored everything (i'll go back, obviously) to see what it would be like

I didn't savescum too drastically other than a few bullshit 80+% missions, so i could see if the HQ was doable... I really don't think it is at my level of weapons etc. I did push all the way in to about three pods left i think... saw the commander far away but couldn't snipe him and they are coming hard at me and we're out of all the grenades, rockets, med kits etc

Is it possilbe to whittle down a region as you infiltrate it? Or do i need to start working harder on my next region and hope to get to the HQ assuaut before it's over level, say, 3?

the tower assault was fun, the sniper came through with a clutch shot a few times .. we just slowly made progress toward the control room. killing reinforcement and biding our time until all squadies were able to have their skills up... hail of bullets, etc..

had the grenadier command the ranger just barely to shut it down.

[Zyrrashijn]

The maps for HQ raids are rather large and full of nice buildings you can use to your advantage. The Pods may be large but so is your squad. Just plan for a long fight and hold back on your consumables. You'll never see a HQ below very heavy activity. I did my first HQ at strength 9 and it was doable. Controlling the encounters is key here.

[Tuhalu]

HQ Assaults are good for teaching you how to kill a lot of enemies without blowing all your consumables early. You're virtually never going to see less than 30 enemies. You may see 50 enemies. But you have quite a few guys and all the time in the world to take enemies out with.

As far as infiltration time goes, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the infiltration time for 9 and 10 man teams.

Code: Select all

;SquadSize factor, explicit for each possible squad size
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[0]=0.5f  ; shouldn't be possible, but included for completeness
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[1]=0.6f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[2]=0.65f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[3]=0.7f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[4]=0.8f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[5]=1.0f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[6]=1.25f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[7]=1.5f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[8]=1.8f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[9]=2.8f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[10]=4.0f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[11]=5.2f
+SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor[12]=6.4f

;GTS Projects that subtract from Squad Size InfiltrationFactor
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[0]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[1]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[2]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[3]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[4]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[5]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[6]=0.15
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[7]=0.2
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[8]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[9]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[10]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[11]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration1Modifier[12]=0.0

+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[0]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[1]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[2]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[3]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[4]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[5]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[6]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[7]=0.0
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[8]=0.25
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[9]=0.5
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[10]=0.5
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[11]=0.5
+GTSInfiltration2Modifier[12]=0.5

The time to infiltrate is calculated as Baseline Infiltration * (SquadSizeInfiltrationFactor - GTSInfiltration1Modifier - GTSInfiltration2Modifier) where i is the size of the team. Baseline Infiltration is 5 days for Veteran difficulty and 6 days for Legend difficulty.

With all modifiers online, we can see the following progression (assuming no other modifiers due to classes brought or equipment and in veteran difficulty):

5 = 5 days
6 = 5.5 days = 10% increase
7 = 6.5 days = 18% increase
8 = 7.75 days = 19% increase
9 = 11.5 days = 48% increase
10 = 17. 5 days = 52% increase

As you can see, the increase per additional soldier is fairly small up to 8. Past that it's massive. Massive past all reason.

Obviously you are meant to spend Intel to bring those numbers down if the mission is so important that you'll bring that number of troops, but even that doesn't really make the time to infiltrate 10 men reasonable.

As a result, I found myself infiltrating everything that needed more than 8 men with only 9. 10 men was just unjustifiable unless I was underinfiltrating on purpose.

Note: Don't worry too much about the numbers for 1-4 soldiers as we know those are being adjusted in v1.3.

[Psieye]

the HQ is Swarming even at freaking 200% I loaded a huge squad and it took like 20 days

see if the HQ was doable... I really don't think it is at my level of weapons etc.

Your squad makeup is what will determine if HQ is doable. Bring the wrong set of (skill + equipment) builds and it won't work out. It's a puzzle to solve. You haven't mentioned anything about this, but just in case it's relevant: abandon any notion of a 'balanced' spread of classes. Maybe you want to bring 4 gunners. Or perhaps 3 snipers. There's more than one solution but you won't think of them if you constrain yourself to "a squad must be 1 of each class".

Also, I find HQ missions to each take hours of my playtime. I play slightly slow but not that slow. A lot of that thinking time goes into "wait will I risk activating another pod if I move here or hack that turret?" Occasionally 10 turns pass in the middle where it's just my shinobi backtracking to confirm there isn't a pod in some unexplored corner of the map.

[Jackal]

HQ Assaults are good for teaching you how to kill a lot of enemies without blowing all your consumables early. You're virtually never going to see less than 30 enemies. You may see 50 enemies. But you have quite a few guys and all the time in the world to take enemies out with.

As far as infiltration time goes, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the infiltration time for 9 and 10 man teams.
As a result, I found myself infiltrating everything that needed more than 8 men with only 9. 10 men was just unjustifiable unless I was underinfiltrating on purpose.

Note: Don't worry too much about the numbers for 1-4 soldiers as we know those are being adjusted in v1.3.

Thanks (again ) for your advice... does that mean you only did 9 men for the HQ as well.


I went in to this HQ fairly early... only lasers rifles and stenguns and pistols researched... and nanoscale vests

25 total soldiers, including three wounded

1 1st Lieutenant
4 Sergeants

[Jackal]

the HQ is Swarming even at freaking 200% I loaded a huge squad and it took like 20 days

see if the HQ was doable... I really don't think it is at my level of weapons etc.

Your squad makeup is what will determine if HQ is doable. Bring the wrong set of (skill + equipment) builds and it won't work out. It's a puzzle to solve. You haven't mentioned anything about this, but just in case it's relevant: abandon any notion of a 'balanced' spread of classes. Maybe you want to bring 4 gunners. Or perhaps 3 snipers. There's more than one solution but you won't think of them if you constrain yourself to "a squad must be 1 of each class".

Also, I find HQ missions to each take hours of my playtime. I play slightly slow but not that slow. A lot of that thinking time goes into "wait will I risk activating another pod if I move here or hack that turret?" Occasionally 10 turns pass in the middle where it's just my shinobi backtracking to confirm there isn't a pod in some unexplored corner of the map.

funny you should say that, i was thinking four gunners would be great for the tower mission...

thanks for the advice.... I really need to use my shinobi smarter, i guess...

[Tuhalu]

HQ Assaults are good for teaching you how to kill a lot of enemies without blowing all your consumables early. You're virtually never going to see less than 30 enemies. You may see 50 enemies. But you have quite a few guys and all the time in the world to take enemies out with.

As far as infiltration time goes, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the infiltration time for 9 and 10 man teams.
As a result, I found myself infiltrating everything that needed more than 8 men with only 9. 10 men was just unjustifiable unless I was underinfiltrating on purpose.

Thanks (again ) for your advice... does that mean you only did 9 men for the HQ as well.

I went in to this HQ fairly early... only lasers rifles and stenguns and pistols researched... and nanoscale vests

25 total soldiers, including three wounded

1 1st Lieutenant
4 Sergeants

Yes, I wound up doing all my HQ Assaults with 9 men. There is some insurance value to having a 10th man on the team, but it's not strictly necessary on Veteran difficulty.

People talk a lot about having specialised compositions for HQ Assaults, but I almost always took 8 different classes + 1 gunner.

[DaviBones]

I thought the same thing when I played my first campaign -- "Why can you even bring 10 (or even 9) people if it's going to take that long to infiltrate?" However, the Large Squad Infiltration upgrade found in the GTS helps incredibly with that, making 8-10 soldier squads far more viable.

Although, it does require a very high-ranking officer. Yet another reason to always have the officer training slots in the GTS filled.

[LordYanaek]

In addition to this obvious part, keeping (semi) fixed squad helps as well as the Leadership officer perk improves infiltration (and other stats), giving a growing bonus the more missions you complete.
Then there are Golden Path missions that are supposed to be hard and requiring large squads (even if currently under 1.2 they can be stealthed with 2 shinobis) and those can receive up to 90% infiltration bonuses from liberation, making 10 men squads more viable on those.
Finally 10 men allows you to attempt 0% missions such as destroy the relay or hacks in case of an emergency (like stopping a Dark Event)

For HQ unless you plan to really spend a long time infiltrating, it's better to limit your squad to 9 men (or 8 if you have good soldiers and equipment)

[Tuhalu]

Then there are Golden Path missions that are supposed to be hard and requiring large squads (even if currently under 1.2 they can be stealthed with 2 shinobis) and those can receive up to 90% infiltration bonuses from liberation, making 10 men squads more viable on those.

This is a misunderstanding. The golden path missions have a penalty in days to your infiltration time. Liberation progression lowers that penalty, but not any other part of the time. So 10 men squads are not even slightly easier to infiltrate on golden path missions.

You might still go with 10 on the Blacksite, Forge or Psi Gate since they are fairly difficulty missions anyway.

[LordYanaek]

This is a misunderstanding. The golden path missions have a penalty in days to your infiltration time. Liberation progression lowers that penalty, but not any other part of the time. So 10 men squads are not even slightly easier to infiltrate on golden path missions.

You might still go with 10 on the Blacksite, Forge or Psi Gate since they are fairly difficulty missions anyway.

Is it so? I didn't look at the code, only the ini files but i was under the impression both squadsize and liberation were multiplicative modifiers and thus would counter each other on GP missions.