Where is all Stun Lancers?

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DonCrabio
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by DonCrabio » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:37 pm

I'm on September 4, I done 2 HQ with 40+ enemies both, couple of Troop Columns and 1 Supply raid. I think it is up to 150 corpses in total, but from all this missions I got only 1 lancer corpse. My sword Shinobies will riot soon, probably.

azarga
Posts: 25
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by azarga » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:41 pm

They have mobility so high, they can't decelerate and run past the area of operation.

DonCrabio
Posts: 90
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by DonCrabio » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:38 pm

azarga wrote:They have mobility so high, they can't decelerate and run past the area of operation.
This is probably funny, but I see this as and issue. By this moment I killed and looted 160+ corpses ans still can't make a single sword. I had similar issues in my previous campaign, but in less extent.

Alketi
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by Alketi » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:58 pm

Doing only Troop Columns (no 0% supply raids) I also had a problem with Stun Lancers, only getting 1 corpse through September.

I had to wait for Heavy Lancers arrive.

DonCrabio
Posts: 90
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by DonCrabio » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:02 pm

I see enough of lancer in gops missions, I thought it just my bad luck.

Tuhalu
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by Tuhalu » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:32 am

This is a pretty good observation really.

I took a look at the encounters you can have in Supply Raids and Troop Columns and they are heavily biased against Stun Lancers. I compiled a list of all the different pods you can meet at all force levels in these missions:

Code: Select all

Supply Raid buckets:

OPNx2_Standard_LW
OPNx3_Standard_LW
OPNx4_Standard_LW
OPNx5_Standard_LW
OPNx6_Standard_LW
OPNx7_Standard_LW
OPNx8_Standard_LW
ADVx3_Standard_LW
ADVx4_Standard_LW
ADVx5_Standard_LW
ADVx6_Standard_LW
ADVx8_Standard_LW
ADVENTFireteamBucket_LW
ADVENTSquadBucket_LW
BOSSBUCKETx4_Standard_LW
BOSSBUCKETx6_Standard_LW
BOSSBUCKETx7_Standard_LW
BOSSBUCKETx8_Standard_LW
MutonBucket_LW
DKVx1_Chryssalid
OPNx3_WithTerror_LW
OPNx4_WithTerror_LW
OPNx5_WithTerror_LW
OPNx6_WithTerror_LW
OPNx7_WithTerror_LW
OPNx8_WithTerror_LW

Troop Column buckets:

ADVENTPatrolBucket_LW
ADVENTFireteamBucket_LW
ADVENTRPGTeamBucket_LW
ADVENTSquadBucket_LW
LIST_BOSSx3_Standard
LIST_BOSSx4_Standard
MutonBucket_LW
OPNx2_Standard_LW
OPNx3_Standard_LW
OPNx4_Standard_LW
OPNx5_Standard_LW
OPNx6_Standard_LW
OPNx8_Standard_LW
The pods that Stun Lancers appear in most reliably are the ADV type pods and that is the most generic advent type possible. They are competing to appear against every other advent enemy available at that force level. There is an outside chance for them to appear in the MutonBucket or the OPN pods, but there they are competing against every alien available as well (excluding bosses).

All the ADVENT bucket pods have no Stun Lancers. The LIST_BOSS pods don't appear until force level 16 (late game).

As a result, you can easily not get any Stun Lancers appearing in early troop columns and supply raids at all. It would be nice if there was a chance for some of these missions to have an ADVENTStunLancerBucket_LW encounter to try and increase the appearance of these in the early game.
Last edited by Tuhalu on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

DonCrabio
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by DonCrabio » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:31 am

Sad news, no ark blades for my poor shinobies.

Jacke
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by Jacke » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:06 am

The mod Extract Corpses lets you have XCOM carry out ADVENT corpses, same as they can do to bleeding, unconscious, or dead XCOM soldiers. There's also a craftable item, the Fulton Harness, to recover 2 of anything. Its default settings don't exclude heavy aliens like Mutons and Andromedons, which should be too heavy to carry, but it has an INI that can be editted to do that.

Using Extract Corpses, you can get Stun Lancer corpses from other missions.

DonCrabio
Posts: 90
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by DonCrabio » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:06 am

Sounds unbalanced, probably it can create a flow of free supplies. Maybe with some house rules, like "no more than 1 alien per mission extracted". I need to think about it.

LordYanaek
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by LordYanaek » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:16 am

I had a similar issue in my first (unfinished) run but my second (victorious) run i had enough of those to equip every shinobi and more to sell.
This 3rd run however i'm once again seeing very few Stun Lancers in full salvage missions. I'm late July and only had 1 for the autopsy, still no blade!
The difference is : in my second run i did a lot of 0% supply raids/ambushes in the May-July time period before i realized it was just crazy OP and decided to infiltrate them as much as possible. This run i haven't done less than 50% infiltration and usually i'm around 100% because i can't field big squads if i want to infiltrate.

Looks like some enemies spawn chances will have to be rebalanced if they want to remove 0% supply raids as currently it's about the only way to acquire some corpses required for secondary weapons. :(

DonCrabio
Posts: 90
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by DonCrabio » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:33 pm

Well, after 3 liberated regions and 7 or 8 troop columns ambushed I got my first Lancer corse. Hurray.

P.S. I'm at 9 October now.

mr_j936
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by mr_j936 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:54 pm

Had something similar happen with me before but with sectoids. Played several supply missions and not one had a sectoid.

Clibanarius
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by Clibanarius » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:04 pm

DonCrabio wrote:Sounds unbalanced, probably it can create a flow of free supplies. Maybe with some house rules, like "no more than 1 alien per mission extracted". I need to think about it.
I'm using the mod and disabled the Fulton system, made carrying a body reduce mobility by 6, and allowed carrying most things. Now it's a lot of fun, because you can rarely get away with more than a few higher-end corpses. If I down a MEC or something valuable at the point of game I'm at, I can usually escape with it in tow and not jeopardize my squad. Trying to have everyone carry something out, though, rarely goes so well. You need those free arms and actions for when reinforcement pods drop in on ya.

LordYanaek
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by LordYanaek » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:10 pm

That mod is certainly interesting but LW2 should work correctly without the requirement to add other mods which is why i think ultimately the developers will have to address the lack of corpses issue.
Since LW2 is a work in progress thought, that mod can definitely help for now.

The high randomness in pods selection probably makes it difficult to "balance" it without some additional code that checks whether or not you received a few corpses for every new enemy and forces them to spawn otherwise, which would certainly be the best solution but would probably involve a lot of coding. It's probably not something that's easily fixed.

late game bodies can also be an issue BTW. In my finished run i had my first Andromedon in March second year despite doing a lot of ambushes and even some late game liberation specifically to try and acquire some late game bodies. Many campaigns would have been over before i could actually research Adv Grenade Launchers. Needless to say i didn't even test a Proximity Mine.
My Psi Ops also suffered from the lack of Gatekeeper corpses (and T3 Amp) for most of the end game and might be part of the reason they "sucked" as have been said by numerous players.

JulianSkies
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by JulianSkies » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:12 pm

LordYanaek wrote:That mod is certainly interesting but LW2 should work correctly without the requirement to add other mods which is why i think ultimately the developers will have to address the lack of corpses issue.
Since LW2 is a work in progress thought, that mod can definitely help for now.

The high randomness in pods selection probably makes it difficult to "balance" it without some additional code that checks whether or not you received a few corpses for every new enemy and forces them to spawn otherwise, which would certainly be the best solution but would probably involve a lot of coding. It's probably not something that's easily fixed.

late game bodies can also be an issue BTW. In my finished run i had my first Andromedon in March second year despite doing a lot of ambushes and even some late game liberation specifically to try and acquire some late game bodies. Many campaigns would have been over before i could actually research Adv Grenade Launchers. Needless to say i didn't even test a Proximity Mine.
My Psi Ops also suffered from the lack of Gatekeeper corpses (and T3 Amp) for most of the end game and might be part of the reason they "sucked" as have been said by numerous players.
Man, I remember my rookie campaign. I spent definitely FAR too long grinding at endgame just to get another Andromedon corpse, I don't remember exactly what for. I think it as the arc blaster? Something like that.
There is a definite dearth of certain enemies in body recover missions.

Maebalzurakin
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by Maebalzurakin » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:49 pm

LordYanaek wrote:LW2 should work correctly without the requirement to add other mods
Just curious. Why do you think LW2 should be pure of other mods?

LW2 is a good mod, but I would never expect it to cover everything. I run LW2 along with 58 other mods and another 100 or so tweaks I have made configuration files.

One of my mods happens to be the extraction mod, which I use without the Fulton harness. I have found that grabbing a needed corpse or two on the way to evac does not unbalance the game at all. With all of the incoming reinforcements it adds a lot of risk to take the time to do it.

LordYanaek
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by LordYanaek » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:14 pm

Maebalzurakin wrote: Just curious. Why do you think LW2 should be pure of other mods?
I don't think it should necessarily be pure of other mods. I have a bunch of additional mods myself (thought most are UI/QoL or cosmetic mods), but another mod should not be required.
Currently, in the absence of the corpse extraction mod it's not possible to build some late game stuff at all unless maybe if you take much more time than is required (and probably reasonable on higher difficulty) to complete the game. You should be able to build everything LW2 offers without the need to use another mod.

You should be able to play LW2 with or without mods. If you need another mod, there is an issue unless it's a clear dependency.

hewhoispale
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by hewhoispale » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:12 pm

LordYanaek wrote: I don't think it should necessarily be pure of other mods. I have a bunch of additional mods myself (thought most are UI/QoL or cosmetic mods), but another mod should not be required.
Currently, in the absence of the corpse extraction mod it's not possible to build some late game stuff at all unless maybe if you take much more time than is required (and probably reasonable on higher difficulty) to complete the game. You should be able to build everything LW2 offers without the need to use another mod.

You should be able to play LW2 with or without mods. If you need another mod, there is an issue unless it's a clear dependency.
From watching JoInrbs and Xavier's runs, it almost seems that coil is the intended tech level for waterworld. I will posit that perhaps the end-tier weapons: plasma, proxymines, the secondaries requiring stupid hard corpses (i.e. Sectopods), et al are there to help players struggling to "close out" the game or luxury projects for a player taking a victory lap after a fortunate campaign.

Why is completing all the research and proving ground projects in each run strictly required? There are a lot of expensive projects, and the scarcity of resources is a pretty defining feature of gameplay. Couldn't an argument be made that the uneven distribution of rare resources makes for interesting adaptation for the player as they need to adapt their A team roster to the available top-tier gear instead of always having everything available everytime?

LordYanaek
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by LordYanaek » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:32 pm

hewhoispale wrote: From watching JoInrbs and Xavier's runs, it almost seems that coil is the intended tech level for waterworld. I will posit that perhaps the end-tier weapons: plasma, proxymines, the secondaries requiring stupid hard corpses (i.e. Sectopods), et al are there to help players struggling to "close out" the game or luxury projects for a player taking a victory lap after a fortunate campaign.
Why have late game techs if you're not supposed to get them?
I have a feeling that the game currently ends prematurely and that's why it ends with coil. However even if you delay longer than strictly required it's very easy to get Plasma but almost impossible to get Proximity mines or T3 Holotargetters so it's not all end-tier tech that's affected.
But most importantly Stun Lancers are required for T2 blades. It's not really what i call an "end-tier weapon"
Couldn't an argument be made that the uneven distribution of rare resources makes for interesting adaptation for the player as they need to adapt their A team roster to the available top-tier gear instead of always having everything available everytime?
Maybe it could if it was affecting every class and build equally but it only affects some classes secondary weapons making every pure primary weapon build almost universally better. If i run a risk of not being able to produce T2 blades why bother with a blade Shinobi while a rifle or pure scout build is sure to be efficient? Why try and develop Psi Ops at all if there is a high risk they will not reach their true potential before the game is over? Making some classes or builds a gamble while others have guaranteed value won't improve variety of builds, it would have the exact opposite effect and i can't think it's a design decision.

hewhoispale
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by hewhoispale » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:06 pm

LordYanaek wrote: Why have late game techs if you're not supposed to get them?
I have a feeling that the game currently ends prematurely and that's why it ends with coil. However even if you delay longer than strictly required it's very easy to get Plasma but almost impossible to get Proximity mines or T3 Holotargetters so it's not all end-tier tech that's affected.
But most importantly Stun Lancers are required for T2 blades. It's not really what i call an "end-tier weapon"
I was referring more to the issue with Gatekeepers and other high-end aliens being hard to get. Though I can't say I've ever been hurting for stunlancer corpses.
LordYanaek wrote:Maybe it could if it was affecting every class and build equally but it only affects some classes secondary weapons making every pure primary weapon build almost universally better. If i run a risk of not being able to produce T2 blades why bother with a blade Shinobi while a rifle or pure scout build is sure to be efficient? Why try and develop Psi Ops at all if there is a high risk they will not reach their true potential before the game is over? Making some classes or builds a gamble while others have guaranteed value won't improve variety of builds, it would have the exact opposite effect and i can't think it's a design decision.
Fair enough.

Though I would say that if a blade shinobi isn't doing something that a rifle or scout shinobi can't do, then that's more the issue. If a blade-focused shinobi isn't solving a problem better than another class/build, there wasn't a point to go for one in the first place outside of it being fun. Same to Psi-ops. If Psi-ops don't bring unique tools to solve problems, there wasn't a point to using them even without the psi-amp availability issue. It sounds more like the builds requiring special tools don't bring enough to the table, or the builds with generic tools bring too much.

wreckcelsior
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by wreckcelsior » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:52 am

Is there a possibility to remove the "Stun Lancer Corpse" from the arc blade 'recipe'?

I'm running an "All Shinobi's All the Time" campaign and the lack of SL corpses is neutering it... not sure where to even locate the file that the arc blade 'recipe' is contained in..

cheers for any and all help.
W
Last edited by wreckcelsior on Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Phaseless
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by Phaseless » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:58 am

I had one lancer for the autopsy, to make my mouth water, even researched it already, but now I Need another corpse.
Forgive my saying this but
where
are
my
corpses

JM01
Posts: 69
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by JM01 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:16 pm

DonCrabio wrote:Sounds unbalanced, probably it can create a flow of free supplies. Maybe with some house rules, like "no more than 1 alien per mission extracted". I need to think about it.
I thought so too but then I started using it and found that given the situation of each mission it's kind of hard to extract more than 4 corpses per mission dude to timers. In most cases I was only able to get 3 to 4 corpses even with a fulton harness (and hell some missions I didn't even get a chance at all to get any corpses).

It is kind of weird that by default you can carry out things like Vipers, Berserkers and even MECs (LOL) but that can be changed in the INI. Also the fulton harness cost can be adjusted in the INI. I personally set the supply cost of the harness to 100, which in the early game is super hard to come by, even with the extra corpses you get from carrying out corpses from missions initially so it balances it out in that you can really only have 1 early game. Also having a fulton harness uses up a utility slot which might otherwise be used for something like a flashbang.

Overall the mod can be adjusted to be balanced and honestly Im surprised it wasn't a base feature of LW but meh it is what it is.

Steve-O
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by Steve-O » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:05 pm

JM01 wrote:
DonCrabio wrote:Sounds unbalanced, probably it can create a flow of free supplies. Maybe with some house rules, like "no more than 1 alien per mission extracted". I need to think about it.
I thought so too but then I started using it and found that given the situation of each mission it's kind of hard to extract more than 4 corpses per mission dude to timers. In most cases I was only able to get 3 to 4 corpses even with a fulton harness (and hell some missions I didn't even get a chance at all to get any corpses).
I agree wholeheartedly, the mod is not nearly as OP as it sounds on paper, and it helps a lot to mitigate the search for corpses required for R&D. The thing about this mod is it gives you options. You can pick up the corpses you want, but the soldier carrying the corpse can't shoot unless he puts it down. (Picking up is free but putting down costs an action, so this can seriously mess with a solider's ability to join the fight if he's needed.) Sometimes you get lucky with corpses near the evac zone at the tail end of a mission, other times the thing you need shows up early and then you either have to lug it with you the whole mission or circle back for it later, when RNFs are dropping like flies.

The thing that always impressed me about Long War is how it gives you choices, and you can choose which way to build your team. The Extract Corpses mod should honestly be part of Long War 2 IMHO. It gives you choices for how to manage corpse requirements - do I sacrifice this soldier's firepower to pull out that lancer corpse, or not and hope I see another next mission?

I'm less fond of the Fulton Harness myself, mostly for thematic reasons. It fits in Metal Gear Solid because Metal Gear is weird like that, but it seems out of place in XCOM. That said, it's easy enough to ignore the item and never build it, if you feel like I do.

caseywills
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Re: Where is all Stun Lancers?

Post by caseywills » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:57 pm

If we are suggesting changes to the troop compositions, I say Stun lancers should show up in the rendezvous missions if they don't already...

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