[Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

hermescostell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by hermescostell »

deaconivory wrote:It's worth noting that the latest group of people invited by JL to be playtesters came from these very forums
Right: the inner circle has been asked to help with the game, making it ever more appealing to the inner circle. I revisit my initial post over and over and see how it's playing out exactly as I said it would, the more I hear. Were complete outsiders brought in to be play testers as well for this round? People with fresh eyes whose feedback will represent the vast majority of the actual end user rather than the comparatively small group who are posting on this forum? Was the balance of play testers (uninformed novices vs. knowledgeable & experienced) skewed to represent that ratio?

We know the answer. And unfortunately it's going to be because it makes SENSE from one standpoint, to ask those most motivated about the game to donate their time to be play testers vs. going out and trying to find Joe and Jane Gamer to be a play tester. On the other hand, well I tried to make a point earlier about how unapproachable the game currently is and how important it's going to be to observe some non Forum Fan (perhaps neutral enough a term now, to not get in the way of the discussion?) play testers and learn from how befuddled they are.
deaconivory wrote:In the end if you are the least bit interested in why those individuals were chosen over you
Oh my goodness, was I in the running to be a play tester, and without my having even any desire to be one? And apparently I wasn't chosen... I'm positively overcome with despair.
hairlessOrphan wrote:You had two complaints: too much stealthing, not enough Strategic layer info.
Nope. It was much more than that. The nasty thing about cognitive dissonance is that it makes it so we can't see things we don't want to see. After so much time and work it can't be easy to encounter criticism on the project. I totally understand. Far easier to see a comment as easily falling into a few bug fixes which "will be fixed with the next release" and move on.
hairlessOrphan wrote:It took you like 8,000 words to say it. Don't be too proud, man.
If verbosity is a crime then I stand guilty as charged :mrgreen: . The problem of course isn't that I took too many words to say it, anyways; The real issue is that I was critical and stood by what I wrote despite all attempts to knock me down, which is a crime whose punishment is to have my character attacked so that my content can hopefully be ignored by those who wish to ignore it.
fowlJ
Posts: 198
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Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by fowlJ »

hermescostell wrote:The real issue is that I was critical and stood by what I wrote despite all attempts to knock me down, which is a crime whose punishment is to have my character attacked so that my content can hopefully be ignored by those who wish to ignore it.
No, the real issue is that you have by and large refused to make any attempt to participate in a meaningful discussion, instead declaring that You're Right and Everyone Else is Wrong and that anyone who disagrees with you is blinded by their fanatical devotion to LW2 instead of, y'know, not being persuaded by what you said. I actually do agree with several of the points you raised (and I'm willing to bet a lot more people than fit your depiction of events feel the same), but those points are seeming fewer and farther between with each post, buried under petty insults and absurd declarations.

I think that this conversation would be far more constructive (not to mention far less grating for all parties) if you would treat the people you are talking with as intelligent, largely reasonable human beings, instead of apparently convincing yourself that you are the only clear-sighted person here, and obviously everyone else just isn't thinking straight.
Dlareh
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by Dlareh »

I, too, have my own opinions about hermescostell's character and wisdom (hint: they're both comically flawed, and he or she would fit in splendidly in a forum full of conspiracy theorist types)

But it doesn't matter, it really doesn't matter. This is a drama-free singleplayer game. To the extent he or she shared any valid or reasonable perspective about in-game LW2 workings, we can process that and ignore the rest. And we basically have already – so yay us.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
hairlessOrphan
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:36 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by hairlessOrphan »

hermescostell wrote:
hairlessOrphan wrote:You had two complaints: too much stealthing, not enough Strategic layer info.
Nope. It was much more than that.
Then you should articulate your other complaints, because your original post gave four bullets:

1) "Successfully nagivate." This was a vague discussion about navigating "minefields," which we can either interpret as Strategic layer minefields (see: not enough Strategic layer info) or Tactical layer minefields. If it's the Tactical layer, you repeatedly say the combat in the tactical layer is fine, which really only leaves stealthing as problematic for you (see: too much stealthing).

2) "Conquer a challenge." This broke down to "combat is fine, stealth missions are not." See: too much stealthing.

3) "Compelling", which despite the label, the complaint was really about not knowing which missions to skip. See: not enough Strategic layer info.

4) "Gained some mastery." Wherein you proceeded to say combat was fine, but stealth missions felt like a crapshoot. See: too much stealthing. You also said the other portion you didn't feel you could gain mastery on was haven management, intel, infiltration, Strength, Vigilance. See: not enough Strategic layer info.

I don't see any other complaints in the first post. What else was there?

PS - FWIW, I agree with your two complaints. I added a third, which was that the Strategic layer mechanics, themselves, were problematic even if fully exposed. There's still some disagreement over that, although I maintain that despite quibbling over how many regions one should liberate, the very fact that trying to liberate as many as possible is A Bad Plan means the mechanics are problematic.
ShockmasterFred
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 am

Re: LW2 just isn't fun

Post by ShockmasterFred »

hermescostell wrote:
Saph7 wrote:Constructive criticism on the mod is welcome. However, starting off your post with I know how things go, and there's going to eventually be a little club of a few hundred players who all continue to exclaim that "it's fun - and if you don't think it's fun, then don't play it" is a very bad way to make people listen to you.
No one is listening, obviously. That's why there are so many posts on the thread. ;)
ShockmasterFred wrote:This entire post is, to me, useless. The dishonesty and bad faith in which you wrote this invalidates your arguments and in truth, must makes you come off like a jerk.
All new truths are first ignored, then ridiculed(the stage you're in), then opposed, finally they accepted as something "we always knew". The sooner you pass through these phases, the better. I speak with confidence because I am confident that I am correct. I am also confident that it is eventually only going to be a community of fanboys shouting down people who attempt to bring fresh direction and creativity to a project by criticizing it. It's an easy prediction to make because it's as sure a thing as the sun coming up tomorrow - for better or worse, without an artificially, radically inclusive angle of inviting criticism (criticism of the game/software itself) in a forum it devolves into a homogeneous ecosystem which unilaterally favors the game. Just fanboys. It happens. These fanboys then sit around looking forward to giving sagely advice on the product/game to newcomers (which gives them a sense of accomplishment) while decrying any suggestion that the underlying product (game/software) has any problems, otherwise it would undercut the legitimacy of their sitting around giving sagely advice on it.

It's okay about the whole sage-on-the-forum thing - everyone needs something to make them feel better about themselves. The problem is just that I really like LW2. I just played it last night for another 8 hours or so. I want it to be better - I like a lot of it, but I want to like ALL of it. I know that there's a window right now to make that happen, and that ideas from outside need to run the gauntlet of the fanboy to get through to the other side of possibly being heard before that window closes.
If you weren't so busy stroking your own ego slugger, you would see that I didn't defend the game at all. I simply pointed out the fact that your arrogance is so all encompassing that you state right out that anyone who defends any aspect of the game you don't like is a "fanboy". That is a fallacious statement, and is simply made because you are incapable of actually defending your arguments, so you fall back on puerile name calling​ and well poisoning, hoping to score cheap points in a desperate effort to feel smarter than everyone else. I'm sorry Mommy never told you that you were special, and that that insecurity leads you to make such grandiose statements about your critique of a video game. Clearly, perspective is not your strong suit. Nor is reading comprehension. Or vocabulary for that matter, as your use of "ecosystem" is so hilariously wrong that I had to show your post to my Aunt, who has been an English professor for 22 years and it made her burst out laughing. So, take solace in that even though you drowned out any viable criticism you might have had with your arrogance, you did at least entertain a neutral party with your stupidity. Cheers bub!
Blackadder
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Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by Blackadder »

Johnnylump said to play nice so I don't know how many rookies just died.

Hermescostell, for the good of the thread please ignore the above post by Fred, I know you'll want your 'right of reply' but there are many other posters on here who are trying to engage with your discussion without insult or hyperbole. Being the bigger person in this case may just result in your critiscisms having lasting effect on the course of the game, instead of becoming mired in vitriol.

And likewise, whether deserved or not there is no need to respond to perceived insulting language with further insults - this forum seems to be largely populated (some exceptions, of course) with people who understand that. Long may it continue.
hermescostell
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Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by hermescostell »

hairlessOrphan wrote: Then you should articulate your other complaints
Sure. Would you like to hear only my criticisms, or would you also like my sense of what a solution might be for them? (and don't worry - I know that it's unlikely my suggestions will be followed as I don't have any skin in the game).
hermescostell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by hermescostell »

Blackadder wrote:Hermescostell, for the good of the thread please ignore the above post by Fred.
This thread has gotten pretty fun, eh? LOL! Don't worry - I'm ignoring the statements I feel don't need a response, and those that do deserve a response I will continue to refrain from personal attacks of character, unlike ... most others, it appears.
Daave87
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by Daave87 »

I made an account just to post this.

I am about half way through my first campaign, with plenty of save scumming and learning most of the new mechanics by watching youtubers. I'm not very good, but I can appreciate the mod as it currently stands and it has been one of the most tense and enthralling games I've ever played.

The experience is just so rich and varied! I think a dark event has just made the ADVENT vision go insane, so stealth is basically over for now. My squads are stretched thin at the point where I'd be coasting in vanilla. I'm having so much fun and just about to fight a second invasion with my C-team.

As this is a total-conversion mod, I think a certain amount of involvement by players in documenting mechanics and researching is to be expected. I don't think you can speak for everyone outside of the inner circle, and I'd like to encourage the modders to keep up the good work.
Drogmyre
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:17 am

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by Drogmyre »

Daave87 wrote: The experience is just so rich and varied! I think a dark event has just made the ADVENT vision go insane, so stealth is basically over for now. My squads are stretched thin at the point where I'd be coasting in vanilla. I'm having so much fun and just about to fight a second invasion with my C-team.

.
Vigilance is by far the most broken Dark Event in the game.

Give me Infestation, Faceless Infiltrators, literally ANYTHING over Vigilance.

28 detection tile Drones are not fun to play against :(
ShockmasterFred
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 am

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by ShockmasterFred »

hermescostell wrote:
hairlessOrphan wrote: Then you should articulate your other complaints
Sure. Would you like to hear only my criticisms, or would you also like my sense of what a solution might be for them? (and don't worry - I know that it's unlikely my suggestions will be followed as I don't have any skin in the game).

And the "argue like Taleb" adventure continues....
ShockmasterFred
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:01 am

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by ShockmasterFred »

Blackadder wrote:Johnnylump said to play nice so I don't know how many rookies just died.

Hermescostell, for the good of the thread please ignore the above post by Fred, I know you'll want your 'right of reply' but there are many other posters on here who are trying to engage with your discussion without insult or hyperbole. Being the bigger person in this case may just result in your critiscisms having lasting effect on the course of the game, instead of becoming mired in vitriol.

And likewise, whether deserved or not there is no need to respond to perceived insulting language with further insults - this forum seems to be largely populated (some exceptions, of course) with people who understand that. Long may it continue.

Yes Blackadder, keep sucking up to the very person who claimed that if you say anything good about the game, in anyway, you are an "inner circle" member or a "fanboy". Your "let's never call anyone out for their selfish labeling of others in the name of 'debate' " mentality is what has allowed so much anti-intellectual nonsense to take prevalence in the US. Keep kissing his feet though, he might say something nice about you soon.
Dlareh
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by Dlareh »

Man, I might agree hermescostell has an incorrigibly ridiculous sense of himself and his opinion of the mod and of others' motivations, but at least his posts make some LW2-related points amidst all the bloviating. (and kudos to hairlessOrphan for offering a perfect summary of what those rambling criticisms reduce down to)

ShockmasterFred OTOH isn't adding anything of topical value; I concur with Blackadder's suggestion to just ignore the tangential opera. It's not worth replying.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
hermescostell
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by hermescostell »

hermescostell wrote:
hairlessOrphan wrote: Then you should articulate your other complaints
Sure. Would you like to hear only my criticisms, or would you also like my sense of what a solution might be for them?
HO - still looking forward to your answer, thanks.
Thrair
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by Thrair »

hermescostell wrote:
hermescostell wrote:Sure. Would you like to hear only my criticisms, or would you also like my sense of what a solution might be for them?
HO - still looking forward to your answer, thanks.
Alright. I've been busy doing other things, and have been off the forums for a while. Diving back in here for a second because things are getting hairy.

First of all, you have some excellent points mixed into your posts. Do I think you could stand to be a little less haughty? Aye. But that doesn't diminish the value of your viewpoints, and they are worth thinkin' about. That said, I'd ask ya to extend the same courtesy to others if you expect to receive the same. At least from some of them. Internet bein' the internet means we won't get everyone to play nice. But if nobody tries it just gets ugly. I remember JL had to step in personally during LW1 at one point and hand out a couple of bans to people who had gone entirely off the deep end into personal attacks. The forum's not nearly as bad as the nexusmod forum was at that time, but I'd prefer we keep a lid on things.

Secondly.... please do not quote yourself in this manner. It's snide and passive-aggressive. As this is a public forum, you do not require permission to espouse your views. You don't need to wait for him to validate your original comment with a reply. Just toss out your possible ideas to fix whatever issues you see in the game. You keep saying they'll be ignored because you're not part of some inner circle....

If that's true, then nothing we write here on the forums matters, aye? But if it's not true, then you're the one censoring your own feedback.


And Shockmaster? I'd like to ask the same basic requests of you, as well. Trying to avoid the forum turning into a battleground isn't sucking up. It's pragmatism and bein' averse to dealing with drama. Regardless of whether or not I find a poster personally aggravating, it's best to just ignore the parts of their posts that are irrelevant, off-topic, or offensive. If they're a troll, responding fuels 'em. And if they're not a troll, responding in kind just leads to escalation. If it's between you two in private messages, go wild. But when anyone gets into a pissin' match on a forum, everyone has to wade through it. The old "two wrongs don't make a right" adage definitely comes to mind.



TL;DR: Everyone knock it off. I'm callin' Wheaton's Law, here.
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johnnylump
Site Admin
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Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by johnnylump »

Second and final warning; thread will go on cooldown if it continues. These threads break down when everyone argues about arguing instead of substance. We welcome supportive comments from our players as well as substantive criticism. It's also okay if people don't like the mod. It's not okay if fans and critics attack each other here -- you've got a whole Internet for that sort of silliness; please confine comments on this thread and forum to the game, not each other.
Dlareh
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Re: [Edit]LW2 v1.2 just isn't fun YET

Post by Dlareh »

I would also note that whatever sage and incisive criticism may or may not be floating around unshared in someone's head, 1.3 is close enough on the horizon and has made enough big changes (see updated changelog) that it seems mostly moot now.

Let's save the popcorn-worthy expert commentary for once we've sunk our teeth into 1.3? Just my suggestion.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
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